Talk:Tripoli, Greece

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The Wiki article _Tripoli, Greece_ states that "Tripoli is a city in Peloponnesos, Greece, and the capital of the prefecture of Arcadia."

It's clear from the maps in the Wiki articles _Peloponnesos_ and _Peripheries of Greece_  that Tripoli is in the Greek Periphery of Central Greece, on the Greek mainland.

The statement above is nonsense: Tripoli is in the prefecture Arcadia, in the middle of the Peloponnese peninsula. Markussep 08:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

And also is the capital of the Periphery of Peloponnese, not Central Greece - Badseed 17:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Climate
Tripoli has the official maximum temperature reading in Greece with 58.9 centigrade recorded there back in the 1930`s. Due to its topographical positions surrended with mouantains and the dry semi- desert, the city is frequently the hottest spot in Europe during the hottest months July- September.

[edit] History —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.19.60.4 (talk) 22:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

That 58.9 °C is highly dubious
I don't believe the 58.9 °C number. Somebody has probably pulled our leg. The generally recognized high worldwide is only 58 °C. Gene Nygaard 16:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Etymology
This is OR.
 * 1) The link with the Iliad is abusive, there is no relationship between the word "tripolos" in the Iliad and the town
 * 2) you gave no secondary source linking the Tripolis of Pausanias to modern Tripoli, and that eventual hypothesis is rejected by Miles
 * 3) the development around Drobolitza in Stefano Magno is partly off-topic and not sourced - nothing in Setton challenges the accuracy of the name in Magno. You have probably written it because Magno is cited here, to cast doubt on his reliability
 * 4) the only RS (Dawkins and Miles) are distorded in order to make them say the opposite as what they actually say
 * 5) For Dorbogliza/Mantineia : OK, you have a 1827 dictionary and a 1687 map that say Dorbogliza was a modern name for Mantineia...So you implicitly infer that Drobolitsa refers to ancient Mantineia and not to Tripolitsa, but even if it seems plausible there is again no reliable source saying so.--Phso2 (talk) 17:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that you are confusing etymology with history. There is no map or reference prior to the 1687 version or any reliable source as to how the later derivations came about. If you want I can bring half a dozen place names called tripoli were there is no obvious city but only a wide plain. Therefore the analysis I have provided is perfectly valid and well sourced. It allows readers to evaluate the options. You are obsessed with finding a Slavic etymon for a term that is ancient and has been corrupted by various invaders. If you find a reliable primary source for the name then by all means share it with us. What are your qualifications for editing this article? you don't seem to understand Greek or English and would be best sticking to subjects you understand Apollo Helios (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Your argumentation is only based on a mix of personal attacks and your own deductions ("the analysis I have provided") based on sometimes irrelevant primary sources. Since your only activity in WP is dedicated to the removal of non-Greek etymologies in a desperate attempt to link Tripolitsa to the Antiquity, keep your insinuations for yourself. --Phso2 (talk) 07:58, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you feel it was a "personal attack" but remember that it is you who is claiming that my work in terms of identifying the etymology and sources for the term Tripolis is abusive. The fact is that none of the sources are definitive and on this basic fact you have nothing to contribute except to delete sources that don't fit with a single point of view version of the origin of place names in the Peloponnese. You suggest I am removing non-Greek etymologies when in fact I am merely providing an alternative. I have not deleted any of the slavic versions - those that for some reason contributors believe to be a panacea for every location that cant be explained in 20th century demotic even when they are clearly nonsense.


 * regarding your specific points above:


 * 1) This is not abusive. It is a link to a secondary source which explains what the term Tripolon meant originally. I was very clear in stating that it does not have a specific geographic location. But it is interesting from an etymological perspective because it also explains why there are never 3 cities nearby these locations but always large cultivated plains. You don't like it so you delete it? I didnt elaborate in the article because that would be OR. But stating a fact is not OR in itself. So who is being abusive?
 * 2) Pausanias is a secondary source. Again you don't like it because it shows the term is older than the slavic variants. Pausanias refers to a Tripolis in Arcadia. What else could he be referring to? there are maps showing Megalopolis plateau as Tripolis as well. Perhaps we should include these too for a more balanced perspective?
 * 3) The development around Stefano Magno is very on-topic because he is supposed to be the primary source for the Slavic variant even though his work is not published. Therefore the secondary sources, such as the Venetian map of 1687 cannot be absolutely relied upon. The oldest maps in existence are Catalan portolans of the late 14th Century. So how can we possibly know what these places were called before then, especially between the 3rd and 13th Century? Yet previous entries state that Dobrolitsa is a medieval name.
 * 4) I have not distorted Dawkings and have nothing to say about Miles. I have Dawking's paper and he does not source his claim. You are happy to state that a citation is needed for the explanation "plain of oaks" but not to question where the term came from? also you do not know that it is South Slavic. It could be any sort of Slavic or it could just be a corruption of Tripolizza. We know from numerous sources that this is what the place was called during the Ottoman period which includes a huge span of time from the 15th to the 19th Century, covering all the Venetian interludes.
 * 5) I don't implicitly refer to anything. The dictionary is very clear on the point, Dobrolitsa is not Tripolizza. The map is about as vague as Pausanias. There are all sorts of strange distortions on the 1687 map, it is hardly the most accurate depiction of the Peloponnese. At least you seem to have conceded this point.

I am not trying to be abusive and I apologise if you feel there has been a personal attack. I am tired of all the articles on wiki that only show slavic etymons for region that was raided, settled and occupied by Goths, Huns, Avars, Heruli, Gauls, Franks, Venetians and which was part of the Greco-Roman world for 2000 years. Any one of these people could have given a new name or adapted an old one. There is more to the history of the Peloponnese than the Chronicle of Monemvasia, Vasmer and Fallmerayer. Apollo Helios (talk) 12:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
 * "abusive" was not a proper term (French-English false friend), I should have written "unwarranted" or "unjustified".
 * For points 1 and 2 : you still don't provide any secondary source backing your interpretations. Pausanias is definitely a primary source, and could refer to any place anywhere in Arcadia bearing that name in his time.
 * 3 : You are again discussing primary sources (Magno and the maps) without providing a secondary source (a scholar stating what is to understand from these primary sources). Anyway the relevant list in Magno has been published by K. Hopf (chroniques gréco-romanes p 205).
 * 4 : the point is not if you are convinced or not by Dawkins or anyone else. Just say which eminent enough scholar is against their interpretation.
 * 5 : An Italian general dictionnary from 1827 states that Dobrogliza is actually Mantineia and is situated "presso il vil. de Goritza, and so does a 1687 map ; in the same time other maps show two places for these names, and an archeological works dedicated to ancient Mantinea states that Goritza was built on the location of Mantinea, distinguished from Droboglitza/Tripolitza (Fougères, Mantinée p 599). So basing yourself solely on this entry from a generalist dictionary seems superficial.
 * For your addition that " Turks referred to the whole of Arcadia, and even the whole of the Peloponnese as Tripolizza.", this is both unreferenced and
 * unlikely. The pashaliks are named after their capital cities in the refs you provided, but it doesn't mean that the name applied to the whole administrative unit, just as "Thessaloniki" or "Larissa" are not the names of the whole "Thessaloniki prefecture" or "Larissa prefecture".
 * Besides, you may say that you are "merely providing an alternative" and "have not deleted any of the slavic versions" ; your first contribution does not sustain this view : you simply erased the sourced slavic hypothesis (which you don't like), and replaced it with the one you agree with, without sourcing it.--Phso2 (talk) 15:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

At least you are finally doing some proper research. And re 1,2 why is a dictionary not a secondary source? And since when is Pausanias not a worthwhile reference? Never mind, you get the point.

I know its hard to believe but I really don't care whether the name is Slavic or Polynesian, it just seems the slavic derivation in this case is unlikely though not impossible. Indeed as you pointed out, in deleting "hydropolitsa" I also managed to lose the equally fanciful "plain of oaks", for a plain where all the oaks were chopped down for boats and firewood about 6,000 years ago. Still someone, somewhere thought it up and published it, so let it be.

Your French reference is just as confused. It seems to also refer to the famous "annali veneti", that great unpublished source for drobolitsa and an obscure 1570 map, also of dubious provenance and not available for anyone to verify. Strange wouldn't you agree? And your source also seems to quote an english map of the mid 17th century referring to a Trapolitza and does some great acrobatics in demonstrating how that is the date it all changed, wow.. Confusion reigns. It somehow implies the Turks managed to corrupt the "Slavonic" name into a "Greek" one. Quite amazing if they arrived and were told the place was called Drogbolitsa. But, anyway, if we can have French sources then I suppose I could also bring some Greek ones? I don't think so.

The fact is that the Chronicle of the Morea is the only published source from the 13th century and it doesn't say anything about any Drogbolitsa in the Morea, Nikli/Mychli is the chief town on the plain at that time. Everything else is speculation upon speculation. Drogbolitsa could well be a latin corruption of hydropolitsa, a common Byzantine term for gloomy locations (such as the villages of Pelion in Magnesia). I do not wish to change the text any further, the wiki rules are blatantly absurd. I have made my point. The fact that Wikipedia is happy to rely on any charlatan's interpretation of the old texts but not the texts themselves says it all. You will just have to wait a little bit longer for the book so you can correct the entries with a secondary source.Apollo Helios (talk) 00:17, 8 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear Apollo Helios (!),
 * I'd recommend that stick to discussing people's arguments, and not indulging in condescension ("at least you are finally doing some proper research") and personal attacks ("would be best sticking to subjects you understand").
 * WP's policy about original research and reliable sources is there for a good reason. It is too easy for any Wikipedia editor to interpret primary sources they way we want. I might argue, for example, that Pausanias in fact never says there is a place called "Tripolis"; he says that there are three cities which (collectively) are called a Tripolis. But I won't do that, because I really have no clue about how often a group of cities named Tripolis or Tetrapolis or whatever ends up giving its name to an individual city.
 * If the primary sources are weak, all the more reason to avoid speculation. It may well be that the medieval "Drobolitza" comes from an earlier Greek Τρίπολις. That is a pretty obvious hypothesis, and as competent scholars, Dawkins and Miles consider that hypothesis -- and they reject it. If you can find high-quality modern secondary sources (preferably scholarly) arguing the opposite, fine, contribute them to the article! --Macrakis (talk) 02:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Quote : "fanciful "plain of oaks", for a plain where all the oaks were chopped down for boats and firewood about 6,000 years ago."  Now you just pretend to know about the landscapes of Arcadia millenaries ago, but either you didn't even read Pausanias or have chosen to avoid what doesn't fit to your point : Pausanias actually writes "After the sanctuary of Poseidon (near Mantineia) you will come to a place full of oak trees, called Sea, and the road from Mantineia to Tegea leads through the oaks." ("Μετὰ δὲ τὸ ἱερὸν τοῦ Ποσειδῶνος χωρίον ὑποδέξεταί σε δρυῶν πλῆρες, καλούμενον Πέλαγος, καὶ ἐκ Μαντινείας ἡ ἐς Τεγέαν ὁδὸς φέρει διὰ τῶν δρυῶν") - Arcadia chapter XI.
 * So your own primary source doesn't mention any Tripolis between Mantineia and Tegea, but describes a place full of oaks... It is not a proof for the Slavic etymology about a "plain of oaks", but it shows blatantly that although you claim that Pausanias is giving an etymology for Tripolitsa, you are merely over-interpreting his text - so your pretensions for being yourself more reliable than Dawkins or Miles should be reconsidered. You didn't search for the published excerpts of Stefano Magno although i gave you the book title and author but you still persist with your statement that it is "unpublished". How worthy are your own opinions and theories about this etymological problem, then?--Phso2 (talk) 07:59, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Dear Macrakis (!) Ι agree. The correct entry for the etymology section on this article would be that the derivation is uncertain.

Dear Psho2, of course I dont know what the landscape was like 6,000yrs ago. Its a joke. The references I refer to are not mine. They belong to everyone. I am not pretending to be more reliable than Dawkings or Miles. But you are not being objective with their hypothesis. Could we see Miles' text to verify your view that Pausanias' Tripolis is a "paretymology" And if so a paretymology of what?

I am giving examples as to why we cannot be certain about the linguistic origin of the name. You see Dropolitza could be a corruption of Drys as well. It is not only Slavic languages that use this term for an oak. That is why all opinions have merit. Is there a good reason why Magno is more trustworthy on this matter than Pausanias? The text from Magno you have given a link to is not specific as to the location either. And it is dated 1467, not exactly the Middle Ages. It also has the prefix R, denoting a ruin, thereby confirming the later entry which appears to link this place name with Mantineia.Apollo Helios (talk) 09:51, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

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