Talk:Tropical Depression Nineteen-E (2018)

To do before GAN

 * Don't refer to the depression by its number designation. It's a number, not a name, so you can just call it "the depression", or "the weather system". Calling it "Nineteen-E" is odd for the reader


 * FTR I don't see the problem with this actually. Nineteen-E is what this will be listed at in HURDAT after all. YE Pacific Hurricane 22:22, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The depression is a number, not a name. We say a storm is named when it reaches winds of 39 mph (74nbsp;km/h). I have an objection specifically with Nineteen-E. In the sources for the article, it's referred as 19E. More often, the sources talk about the depression and what it did. Even the TCR doesn't often call it "Nineteen-E". Maybe it's a semantic thing, but I don't think we should call a system by their number. Imagine if foreign readers try to translate their article. Per WP:MOSNUM, numbers over 10 should be written as numerals, in this case, 19-E, not Nineteen-E. I think the article should be re-written to avoid saying "Nineteen-E" so many times. The wording could be improved, but it's a good start. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 00:53, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, the TCR refers to the system as Tropical Depression Nineteen-E at least half of the time. The actual numerical designation of the system is EP19, not Nineteen-E. Think of Nineteen-E as a numerical name assigned to a system of insignificant intensity. The JMA simply doesn't do this. TDs are simply TD without any kind of name. Actually, WP:MOSNUM has no authority on this. The NHC called the system Nineteen-E, not 19-E. Whatever the NHC says is what goes on the article. Figfires Send me a message! 02:17, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * MOSNUM is the manual of style for dates and numbers, so yea it does have authority. Of course what the NHC says affects the article, I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing writing out a numerical identifier, such as "were affected by Nineteen-E". Notice how the NHC and other sources refer to the depression when discussing the impacts. Either it's the full name (which can get redundant) or it says "the depression". A number is not a name. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 14:59, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Nobody else I have talked to saw it as a problem, but it has been removed. Figfires Send me a message! 18:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Make sure you cover more of the origins from the TCR, namely that it came from a tropical wave that came from western Africa
 * Any United States impact? Also, you mention Baja California Peninsula as being impacted, but don't mention any impacts there.
 * The impact section feels a bit disorganized. It seems like you're kind of going by area, but you have some overall summary effects in what seems like the "Sonora" paragraph - "In total, at least eight Mexican states were affected by Nineteen-E."
 * Right now you're just using sources from the TCR. Try branching out a bit more, and see what else you can find. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 15:29, 2 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the pointers. I will work on points 1 + 2 right now. I will refer to it as Nineteen-E for the opening of the met history and after the mentioning of TD Six (ie Florence) just so people know which I am talking about. The origins will definitely get more coverage. As for US impact... that is nada. Impacts simply need more development... Points 3-5 will be fleshed out as the impact grows. Figfires Send me a message! 19:21, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I could use some help filling in the impact section as there are lots of sources to go through. I have searched Baja California, Sinaloa, and Sonora. Simply a lot of possible sources to go through. Figfires Send me a message! 18:10, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Try and be more specific when you're searching through sources. Most sources released on the same day by the same agency (Associated Press) will have the exact same information. If you want to be more specific in your searches, try ["Baja California" depression September 2018]. The more you read through them, the more you should be able to tell it's largely identical. Look for key words and descriptions, like flooding, power outages, and forms of damage. I'm pretty busy these days, and I'd rather work on more significant storms than this one, but if you really need more assistance, I can help out. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 18:21, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The issue is this storm had an impact greater than TSs such as Alberto and possibly even Gordon. It is quite difficult for one person to document an impact of this scale in a quality and timely manner. Figfires Send me a message! 18:30, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thankfully, there is no deadline! We can take as long as we want, or work as quickly as our volunteer hands will go. There are some important storms that have very scant information, and some storms have really-well written articles despite being of marginal importance. People can edit whatever they want, and editors don't have to improve anything they don't want to do. This article is in decent shape, but if you want to keep working on it, then it'll take some time to expand the article. Sometimes, I work for months on a single article, and sometimes I finish an article in a day or two. It's up to you what you want to work on, because it can be tireless and thankless. Also, let me add right here, thank you Figfires and Yellow Evan (as well as others) for their contributions to this website. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 18:38, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

A-class review

 * Tropical Depression Nineteen-E was a weak tropical cyclone that caused flooding throughout Western Mexico - "throughout" implies the entirety of, and I'm not sure if this tiny system spread rainfall that wide.
 * Changed to "Northwestern". Seems I simply forgot the north part when I updated the article. Noah Talk 17:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Split lede into two paragraphs
 * Split Noah Talk 18:21, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * " It then slowed down and meandered to the southwest of Mexico for the next several days. Around the same time, a trough dropped down from the United States. The two interacted and an area of disturbed weather formed several hundred miles off the southern coast of Mexico on September 14." - considering this is the lede, these three sentences should all be merged and simplified. Don't make the lede too complex for your readers
 * Cut most of the content and combined. Noah Talk 18:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The National Hurricane Center continued to track the disturbance for the next several days as it tracked northward.  - don't say "track" twice in the same sentence
 * Changed to "travelled". Noah Talk 18:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * On the next day, a circulation center and more concentrated convection formed along the trough. Despite disorganization and having close proximity to land, the disturbance developed into a tropical depression in the Gulf of California later on the same day. - these essentially refer to the same event, so these sentences should be merged
 * Combined. Noah Talk 18:08, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "Additionally, excessive rainfall led to the inundation of at least 300,000 structures in Sinaloa. Flood damages there are estimated to be in the hundreds of millions." - millions of what? I'm assuming you meant dollars here, but it could be pesos. Try and get a more firm damage total if you can.
 * I have tried to look for a more firm damage total, without luck. AON didn't change their estimate in the 2018 final report and the TCR isn't of any use there. I added (2018 USD) after the estimate and changed hundreds to $100s. Noah Talk 18:18, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Ehh, not a fan. Try and get a more specific damage total if you can. It might be reported in pesos, or in Spanish. The previous wording "hundreds of millions" was better. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 00:59, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I will change the wording back to hundreds of millions. Btw I have looked at several pages of results (in Google) in Spanish without finding an exact total. Even as of January, an exact total was not tabulated. Noah Talk 01:32, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 'Tropical Depression Nineteen-E formed as the result of an area of low pressure interacting with a tropical wave. Its origins can be traced back to a tropical wave'' - I feel like there is a cleaner way of saying this so you don't have to say "tropical wave" twice so soon after each other. Also, TW should be linked the first time
 * Fixed the link. I will look for a better way of saying the same thing. Noah Talk 18:18, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "by September 6 to 7" - if it's by a certain date, then just say "by September 7", since that's just as accurate as "by September 6 to 7", but is more concise.
 * fixed. Noah Talk 18:18, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "a low to mid-level low" - you might want to double check, but I think this should be written as "a low- to mid-level", since the "low" is referring to the height first. Just "a low to mid-level low" sounds like two different lows.
 * Corrected. Noah Talk 20:59, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * " at 12:00 UTC" - link UTC
 * Linked. Noah Talk 20:59, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "with a north to south orientation" - fix the dashes for north-to-south
 * Fixed. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 20:59, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Watch out for the redundant links. There are a lot.
 * I removed some... if there are more, please let me know. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 20:21, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "A circulation center and more concentrated convection formed along the trough. Despite not being expected to organize due to its proximity to land, the disturbance formed a tropical depression at 12:00 UTC, becoming the first tropical cyclone to have formed over the Gulf of California based on records dating back to 1949." - the prose could use some love here. Split up the record part into its own sentence for starters.
 * Fixed it up a bit. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 20:59, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "Six hours later, as the tropical depression moved over rough terrain in the Mexican state of Sonora, it quickly dissipated." - not true. Landfall was at 03:00 UTC, and dissipation wasn't until 12:00 UTC. Work on the wording here, and mention where the center moved ashore. That'll help fill out the MH
 * Should be fixed up. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 22:49, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The impact is disorganized. You should split all preparations into its own paragraph, since they're similar in nature, but spread out depending on the area affected.
 * How much rainfall in Baja California Sur? Any impacts there?
 * I found a graphic with rainfalls... I can give a range. Other than that, nothing can be found for Baja California Sur. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 22:49, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * In the Sonora paragraph, could you avoid starting consecutive sentences with "At least"?
 * Fixed. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 01:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "According to Conagua" - you never say what this is
 * Stated what it is. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 01:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "three people were counted as missing in Culiacán after being swept away by flood waters and are presumed dead" - "are" or "were" presumed dead?
 * Should be "are presumed dead" because they never returned alive and bodies were never found. NHC counts them in the deaths. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 01:50, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "classes at all levels of education were cancelled in the municipalities of Culiacán, Navolato, Angostura, Mocorito, Salvador Alvarado, Sinaloa, Guasave, Ahome and El Fuerte" - do you have to list all of these places? It's only school cancellations.
 * Changed all of those to "several municipalities". <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 20:01, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * " after 14,000 hectares " - convert
 * Converted to acres. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 02:04, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "58 thousand jobs were impacted, and over 500 thousand birds and 15 thousand heads' - convert numbers to 58,000, 500,000, and 15,000, per WP:MOSNUM. Also, since you mention the farm animals here, you should mention this closer to the agriculture losses, since loss of animals is usually counted toward agri damage.
 * Numbers changed... location of the sentence is unchanged. This sentence was already directly after the one with the damage number. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 01:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Split out the aftermath into its own paragraph, and put it after the Sinaloa impacts
 * Done! <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 02:34, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * " In the municipality of Nogales" - this should be in the Sonora paragraph
 * Moved. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 01:52, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

The article is in decent shape, but I think it needs more work for it to be considered A-class. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 16:31, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe I have made all the corrections. I added in rainfall ranges for Baja Cal. Sur and Chihuahua based on the data from Conagua. Please let me know what you think of the article. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 02:34, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Final thoughts - shouldn't Chihuahua be listed last? It is the farthest inland, thus likely the last to be affected.
 * "In total, 58,000 jobs were impacted, and over 500,000 birds and 15,000 heads of cattle, goats, and pigs were killed and swept away by the currents of engorged rivers. - split. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 01:02, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Moved Chihuahua to last in the impacts + split and rearranged. Just so you know, I have had other people look for damages as well and all of us have turned up empty-handed. If they are out there, then they are hard to find. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 01:32, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * OK thanks. I upped the article to A-class. Good work with the article. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 15:46, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Why was the year dropped?
Why was the year dropped from the title? This isn't the only "Tropical Depression Nineteen-E" ever recorded. Are we assuming now that this is the primary topic? YE Pacific Hurricane 22:30, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * - I'm with Yellow Evan. There have been other TD 19-E's before. This should be moved back ASAP. ♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 00:07, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What would go on the resulting disambiguation page? -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:06, 8 May 2019 (UTC)


 * A list of all TD19E's ever? YE Pacific Hurricane 15:17, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Which Wikipedia article(s) would be linked in that disambiguation page? I will be happy to revert the move and create the disambiguation page if there's Wikipedia ambiguity, which I did check for before the move, but I do not know what would go in the Wikipedia disambiguation page. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No disambiguation page exists, nor should there be. There’s ambiguity because other storms have been designated TD 19-E, including 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, 2009, 2006, and 2000 (among others). Most of these were upgraded to tropical storms, but they still had the destination of TD-19E. Wikipedia has disambiguation pages for most of the names storms, but not tropical depressions, as it’s a number and not a name. Since we lack the dab page for TD-19E as it is unneeded, I implore again to move the article back to add the year. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 15:41, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * If this article isn't the primary topic for "Tropical Depression Nineteen-E", and "Tropical Depression Nineteen-E" shouldn't be a disambiguation page, then where should "Tropical Depression Nineteen-E" redirect to, since this isn't its primary topic? -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:54, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Pacific hurricane. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 16:17, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Which does not mention any "Tropical Depression Nineteen-E"s. Probably needs a better target. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:22, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * That page lists every Pacific hurricane season. If they’re looking for a specific storm, then they’ll find the year there. That’s probably the best target until a page gets created for List of Eastern Pacific tropical depressions, IMO. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 16:45, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

a little question
Hello User:Hurricane Noah, I'm translating this article to Chinese, just have a little question, at section "aftermath": "Additionally, 17 helicopters were sent to perform reconnaissance in Sinora and transport supplies." Any chance this Sinora is a typo for "Sonora" or is actually what it is now, another name for the neighbourhood "Synora" in Patras?--Jarodalien (talk) 04:22, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That was a typo. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#009200 0.3em 0.4em 1.0em,#009200 -0.2em -0.2em 1.0em;color:#009200">Noah Talk 14:12, 12 April 2020 (UTC)