Talk:Troubadour/Archives/2012

Etymology
Please do not remove French references to latin/greek origin of the word. I don't want Menocal's theory as everything comes from Arabia (tepid water and herself too?) having a thicker share here than all french litterates who's been working for centuries on this subject in their university. Sorry if i translated poorly the 'Université de Limoges' (pls do not translate titles, thx) article citation but it's defintively not a plagiat. Short and explicit citations are authorized as clearly stated bottom of this page :. tried to do my best for last shot. Gollan 23:09, 12 dec 2006

Cathars, Troubadors and Women
Greetings. I have been researching women rulership in the midevial periode and came across the Cathars. In all my lititure reguarding women and Cathars they state women were held in far better standing, often leaders of their own local communities. And that Catharism transended the feudal system to include the peasents and nobility. The Troubeldors are cited as heavily influenced by Cathars, as was the ducal house of Poutier. According to my sources, women in the Aqutaine, largely because of the Cathar influence, were able to inherite and rule their own lands in precident to their children or other male relitives as would have been the case in Northern France under Salic. This tradition led to Eleanor of Aqutaine inheriting by right.Drachenfyre

Can anyone comment on this? I have not seen the same kind of information in this particular artical and would welcome more discussion on women Cathars and the Aqutaine/Troubordor connection.
 * Please Sign your posts on talk pages. If you could give me some specific references, I might be able to comment. The issues surrounding Salic law, the Cathars, and women are rather complicated. Youc could have a look at Albigensian crusade, but I don't think it covers these issues. Tobyox 14:12, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

German article
This article is almost a stub. The german article Trobadordichtung is much better. While I have corrected one instance of a serious error, the article as a whole remains unsatisfactory. If nobody is willing to work on this article I will replace it with a translation of the german article. This unfortunately would mean, that some of the work on this article by fellow wikipedians would be lost. --grovel 09:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, that would be great. We could just work in any of the old information not in the translation, if there is any.--Cúchullain t/ c 17:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Rationalisation
This article and Provençal literature have a lot of overlap, as someone has pasted an essay or two into that page on the poetry of the Troubadours.

I was thinking perhaps there should be a page Poetry of the Troubadors that both this article (perhaps replaced with the german version?) and Provençal literature link to. There is also a little redundant information on the bio page of William IX of Aquitaine.

Any other thoughts? -- d


 * Yes. If someone will translate the German de:Trobadordichtung, which looks very good to me, then it could form the Poetry of the Troubadours article that you suggest. (Or maybe you are offering to write a new one, David?) Then Troubadour and Provençal literature could link to it, and could be trimmed of redundancy. The William IX of Aquitaine article may indeed be a bit messy, but won't, I think, contribute much to this process.


 * And, yes, there is a fair bit in Provençal literature that belongs in Troubadour really -- especially about the social status of the troubadours. I had been thinking of revising that -- it is partial and very dated.


 * What English Wikipedia has, which so far as I can see German Wikipedia hasn't, is a List of troubadours. Andrew Dalby 12:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Troubadours in games
I don't think these have anything to do with the article: they aren't even the same sex as real troubadours! Maybe they should have a little article all of their own, like the night club? Andrew Dalby 15:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I already killed it. That was one of the worst examples of fancruft I've seen on a "classical" music article. Mak (talk)  18:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Stayin' alive
Would like to know more about the social existence of troubadours. How did they make a living? Were they glorified buskers singing on the streets with people throwing them coins ? (or live chickens?) What exactly was their social role and position? Amity150 04:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, they were certainly higher class than the jongleurs. They were generally supported by the nobility, and on such an intimate basis, at least to my understanding, that even those troubadours who were not of noble birth, lived lives on practically the same level as the nobles. I'd have to do more research to say more, but I think they generally lived as the very highest class servants of the highest classes, if that makes any sense. Mak (talk)  05:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * To be a jongleur (there isn't a real article on them yet in Wikipedia) was a profession or trade. To be a troubadour wasn't. For most troubadours, from kings downwards, it was a part of social life: you composed poetry for your friends to listen to. So I think "servants" is wrong: the troubadours were the masters (male and sometimes female, see also Trobairitz). But some of the poems were taken up by jongleurs, with or without their composers' blessing; and some of them are actually addressed to jongleurs, "take this song and sing it to ..." There was a sort of literary symbiosis, although jongleurs and troubadours were of totally different social classes or statuses. And rew D alby  12:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:C.s.lewis3.JPG
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Icelandic
It should be noted that the word "Trúbador" is a word in modern Icelandic describing a kind of folksong musician, you can contact me for more info. -- Ævar Arnfjörð [ Bjarmason]   15:19, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)


 * Why?Ekwos (talk) 00:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Canso de Crozada
As I understand it the word "crusade" and its variants derive from 19th century historians. Thus I suspect "canso de crozada" is a term deriving from th 19th or 20th centuries. Now the article makes it seems like "canso de crozada" was a term in use at the time of the Crusades by troubadours and their audience. If this is merely a modern technical term, I think it should be removed and simply have the English "Crusading Song", or it should be made clear that this isn't a term from Medieval Provencal. Ekwos (talk) 00:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I cannot say for sure whether canso de crozada is Old Occitan or a modern term, but the word crozada/croçada/crotzada is authentically medieval. It can be found, for instance, in the vida of Perdigon. The English word "crusade" is a blend of Spanish cruzada (anglicised first as "crusado") and French croisade (which was also the original English word). The current form came to predominate in the eighteenth century, but the Romance words were current in the Middle Ages. Srnec (talk) 02:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that the common term for "crusade" at the time was "peregrinatio".Ekwos (talk) 17:05, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "Crusade" and its cognates are medieval words. Peregrinatio is just Latin for "pilgrimage", which is what individual Crusaders were on. Srnec (talk) 21:11, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's fine if it is a term current books use. I just think that the article could do to clarify whether the terminology was employed at the time, or is simply modern terminology.Ekwos (talk) 20:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Useful source for etymology
I've found a recent scholarly source summarising the discussion about the etymology of troubadour very neatly but in quite some detail, useful as an overview, even if it may not really offer information not already present in the other sources; perhaps someone would like to add it somewhere: here on pp. 13–18. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:52, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Florian, but in the article troubadour, nothing is explained out of historical theories. Presented like this, this theory is clearly not relevant. The subject case in Old Occitan is trobaire "composer"; troubador was only the regime case (see for exemple pescaire / pescador "fisherman". The occitan word is strictly parallel to langue d'oil (Old French) trovere > French trouvère (subject case) and troveor > French ""trouveur"". Nothing shows that the French word is borrowed from Occitan. Both are from Latin *tropator / *tropatoris, that reflects the two different cases and which evolution in French and Occitan is regular. Nortmannus (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2012 (UTC)