Talk:True Family/Archive 1

"cult figure and the focus of a sacred shrine" cut from article

 * Soon Ae Hong - Sun Myung Moon’s late mother-in-law (known to members as Dae Mo Nim, or ‘revered mother’), who died in 1989 - has now become a cult figure and the focus of a sacred shrine at Chung Pyung, Korea, where a medium æ Mrs Hyo Nam Kim æ claims to be spiritually linked with her, and where members have recently been asked to undergo substantial periods of spiritual training.[16]

Moving article to "Soon Ae Hong"
We probably should move the article to her real name. Uncle Ed 16:16, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

On second thought, exuc's move makes sense. It's consistent with the "title" convention:
 * Black Heung Jin Nim for Cleophas, the Zimbabwe who (supposedly) channeled for Heung Jin Moon in the mid-1980s.
 * Dae Mo Nim for Mrs. Soon Ae Hong, who is True Mother's mother and is (supposedly) being channeled by Hyo Nam Kim.

Just what I was thinking. --Uncle Ed 13:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I moved Soon Ae Hong back to Dae Mo Nim: We had this discussion before, and Ed forgot that he agreed we shouldn't move Mark Twain to "Samuel Clemens". Dae Mo Nim was far more significant after her death.-Exucmember (talk) 22:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I changed my mind. She's not a famous author, and anyway see where Lewis Carroll redirects to. Mrs. Hong is a subject of biography, although much has yet to be written here. She only picked up the DMN title posthumously, as did Moon's own mom.

I also plan to request consensus for moving black HJN to Cleophas, once I verify his last name and get some more facts from a church member I know who was in Zimbabwe before and after the temporary US channeling. By the way, a 3-year period does not make one a permanent channel. --Uncle Ed (talk) 10:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not a biography page. It is about the phenomenon taking place during a certain period. The medium herself is not notable, and neither was the person being channeled (Soon Ae Hong). Think about it, and I think you'll agree, Soon Ae Hong herself was not sufficiently notable for a Wikipedia article. The phenomenon, however, is probably notable. -Exucmember (talk) 18:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It might therefore be better to have an article on the phenomenon generally (e.g. 'Spiritual channelling in the Unification Church' or similar). Certainly the sourcing on this article doesn't currently support its separate existence. It would also look less 'oddball' than having a series of apparently 'biographical' articles, many of which contain more about the period after the person, who the article is ostentatiously on, died. HrafnTalkStalk 05:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * There were three channelling episodes that come to mind, of Soon Ae Hong, Sang Hun Lee, and of Heung Jin Moon. If we're talking about what should be in an encyclopedia, the first two are relatively minor, but the third was a major phenomenon (and some would say a milestone or even a turning point in the church). The first two may not, on second thought, be sufficiently notable for independent Wikipedia articles. I have to agree that the sourcing in the current article doesn't support its existence, which Hrafn several times has correctly pointed out was true of many Unification related articles (especially on specific theological ideas). Because the Heung Jin Moon channelling was so significant (and far more noticed by the world at large), it would be a disservice to collapse that article into a more general topic that only includes two (much less significant) examples, even though current Unification Church members would probably love to see that because they would prefer the scandal to swept under the rug. But that scandal led many members to reassess the role of violence within the church, the meaning of obedience to leaders, the role of authority, faith and freedom (or coercion), and other issues. The Black Heung Jin Nim phenomenon went far beyond just channelling. Reading over the Dae Mo Nim / Soon Ae Hong article just now, I'm having second thoughts about whether this article topic can be considered notable without a lot more content and a lot more sourcing. -Exucmember (talk) 06:19, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Exucmember is right. I think Black Heung Jin Nim should retain its own article, but the lesser instances should be rolled up into a single article -- assuming that there's sufficient sourcing to even sustain this. Controversial New Religions by James R. Lewis & Jesper Aagaard Petersen give some information on the Dae Mo Nim episode, but its presentation is more narrative than analytic -- making it in some ways closer to a primary source in its treatment (with the problems that such sourcing presents). The ancestor/spiritualism issue would appear to be one of more prominent points of difference between UC and orthodox Christianity, so surely somebody must have written on this topic. HrafnTalkStalk 06:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Ed, if you think Soon Ae Hong deserves her own biographical article, perhaps you should do what Steve did with Unification Church of the United States, developing the article in your own space, finding sources and filling out the content, and then move it to the mainspace. Of course, the situation is different because that article didn't exist in mainspace, but you might consider Steve's method as an alternative to creating loads of articles that, even if developed, may not be sufficiently notable. I know you're very experienced here and I've only been around for a few years, so I'm not trying to tell you how to operate, but Hrafn does have a point about all the non-notable articles you started. I'm honestly not sure whether this article can be brought up to notability standards. -Exucmember (talk) 06:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to pick and choose one good idea from each of you, Hrafn and Exuc. We need an article on UC channeling, as well as an article on True Mother's mommy. --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I would be highly surprised if the latter article (shorn of its posthumous events, which would go into the channelling article) would meet WP:BIO. HrafnTalkStalk 07:30, 31 August 2008 (UTC)