Talk:Truth/Archive6

NPOV in Introduction
Introduction edited to maintain NPOV -- 67.182.157.6 21:56, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


 * (rv. The intro was crafted to avoid POV traps. It may help to read the archives to understand the evolution of the article.) Ancheta Wis 22:09, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

(rv. Not everyone agrees that the first paragraph is written in a neutral point of view, so the second paragraph is needed to point that out, for the reason presented.) -- 67.182.157.6 19:24, 14 July 2005 (UTC)


 * This is not my article. I watch it because my articles depend on this one as a basic/fundamental. I have no stake in it other than it be clear so others can depend on it. However I do know that Truth comes to rest in the heart. Thus someone who does not understand the values which are expressed in the article has an axe to grind. That is called POV. You may wish to examine your motive for impinging on an article which has come to a balance from multiple people with sincere motives. I can state this because I have edited articles with them looking over my shoulder, and I have a sense of their character. In other words, I can vouch for them. But your edits seem to be combative. Where does the Truth come from, in that case? Is it Might makes Right? If that is so, there are many editors where I come from, and you will not fare well. Is it Truth? If that is the case, then what are the issues that make the article the way it is? Are you not curious about those factors? Then one thing you can do is lurk in the background, and learn from these people who have something to say. I intend to learn something in any case. Good luck. Ancheta Wis 20:35, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say it was your article. You can read what I said above, then comment on the issue raised, NPOV in the introduction, if you have something to contribute other than threats. -- 67.182.157.6 21:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC)


 * About this sentence: "However, in the interest of maintaining a neutral point of view here, it must be said at this point that some would object that the above is redundant, that to assert that a statement is true is just to assert the statement itself." Wikipedia articles are not a dialogue. Generally you should avoid mentioning the NPOV policy in articles. You should also avoid the cliche "it must be said", "it should be noted", etc. It's pointless wordiness. I've reverted the anon's edit since it violates a few style guidelines (no lead section, too many external links to wiktionary, self-references). Rhobite 21:33, July 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * On another note, editing other users' comments is serious business. As are baseless accusations of vandalism. If you continue to edit other people's comments you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Rhobite 21:33, July 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * It's not too late. You can join the community. I would recommend taking a user name, reading the policies, and finding like-minded souls. Probably find some topic close to your heart, and then write. I guarantee you will find compatible editors. There are 300,000 of us. Join us. Ancheta Wis 22:02, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you join me in questioning the neutrality of the first paragraph of this article? See secton 2.2 Deflation -- 67.182.157.6 22:07, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Tha manual of style says that the first time the title is mentioned in the article, put it in bold using three apostrophes (truth). -- 67.182.157.6 00:12, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

NPOV says: Wikipedia policy is that all articles should be written from a neutral point of view: without bias, representing all views fairly. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". [1]" -- 67.182.157.6 00:20, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Jim Wae wrote: Some people think the word "truth" has a referent, some think it a collection of true statements, while some think that all true statements have some single property in common (or 2 if you call truth a property) --JimWae 02:16, 2005 July 17 (UTC)

And some people have the point of view that saying "'Snow is white' is true" is redundant, that saying "Snow is white" alone is sufficient. See section 2.2 of the article. This is where the NPOV policy comes in. The statement the other side keeps trying to engrave in stone here is not in keeping with NPOV because it does not take into account that not everyone agrees with it. NPOV says: Wikipedia policy is that all articles should be written from a neutral point of view: without bias, representing all views fairly. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". [1]" -- 67.182.157.6 07:44, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

67,


 * You can call me DotSix. 8^)

it seems that view is already included in the article. NPOV does NOT mean that only one view is covered. Please try to express your issues more clearly - you are coming across as simply disruptive --JimWae 07:57, 2005 July 17 (UTC)

We are discussing the INTRODUCTORY PARAGRAPH Banno and his obscurantist friends are trying to engrave in stone here:

This article is primarily concerned with truth as it is used in the evaluation of propositions, sentences, and similar items. For example, the sentence "3 is less than 4 is true" is an evaluation of the sentence "3 is less than 4".

Not everyone agrees that paragraph is in accord with NPOV, on grounds that saying, for example, "'Snow is white' is true" is redundant, and it is sufficient to say simply "Snow is white." So, to preserve a neutral point of view, that paragraph should be deleted, or additional material added to show the other points of view, the one in section 2.2 of the article for example.

According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". [1]" -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 08:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * (numbers added so comments don't have to be broken up)


 * 1) Hi. I'm new to this article and don't know its history, so I don't know what the origin was of the introduction which discusses evaluation of statements. I'm not sure what the supposed POV is.
 * 2) However, I do know that an encyclopedia article on Truth cannot start with the sentence "Philosophy is the pursuit of wisdom, entailing the search for...". It doesn't matter which word you bold, the subject of that sentence is still Philosophy and not Truth.
 * 3) On the other hand, it's clear that you're also correct. I only took a couple years of philosophy and logic classes, but Truth obviously encompasses more than just binary logical evaluations. I suggest you take a stab at writing an introduction (who's subject is truth, not philosophy) which mentions truth both as sought after by philosophers and as an evaluation of logical sentences. &mdash; Asbestos | Talk  11:02, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * 1. It's called "Lead Section" by the Manual of Style:
 * "The lead section is the section before the first headline. It is shown above the table of contents (for pages with more than three headlines)."
 * The lead section entry favored by Banno and crew is not in keeping with NPOV in that it does not take into account an opposing point of view (see section 2.2 of the article), that saying "It is true that P" (for example, "It is true that Snow is white") is redundant, and saying simply, "Snow is white" is perfectly sufficient. See the issue now sir? The issue is maintaining NPOV in the lead section as well as throughout the article. Principled negotiation is a cooperative process whereby participants try to find a solution which meets the legitimate interests of both parties, which in the context of Wikipedia usually involves appropriate mention of all points of view in an article thus improving the quality of the article, and especially NOT favoring one POV over another in the lead section. -- 67.182.157.6 17:12, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 2. ?Maybe you missed the philosophy flag at the top of this page?

Template:Philosophy
 * Is there something about "This article is part of WikiProject Philosophy, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to philosophy on Wikipedia" that you have trouble understanding sir? -- 67.182.157.6 17:26, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 3. Note that TRUTH is the word in bold, not philosophy? See the manual of style which says the following:
 * "If possible, make the title the subject of the first sentence of the article (as opposed to putting it in the predicate). In any case, the title should appear as early as possible in the article — preferably in the first sentence."

"The first time the title is mentioned in the article, put it in bold using three apostrophes. Here's an example: article title produces article title."
 * -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 17:12, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Everybody...calm down. It was rather difficult to follow this discussion, but from what I understand, the gist of it is that the anon at IP address 67.182.157.6 finds the presence of this sentence: For example, the sentence "3 is less than 4 is true" is an evaluation of the sentence "3 is less than 4". to be non-NPOV because it does not take into account the POV that saying "'3 is less than 4 is true'" is redundant.  First off, I have to question the validity of that POV--saying "3 is less than 4" is a statement about the value of the number 3 relative to the value of the number 4, while saying "'3 is less than 4' is true." is is a statement about the truth or falsehood of the statement "3 is less than 4".  It's not redundant; the subjects of the sentences are entirely different.


 * Actually, Kurt, what you say here is precisely what deflationists deny. Deflationism holds that "'3 is less than 4' is true." is NOT about the statement "3 is less than 4". For a deflationist, BOTH sentences are about the same thing: they are both about the value of the number 3 relative to the value of the number 4. --Nate Ladd 02:26, July 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * That said, I fail to see how the not mentioning the POV that "'3 is less than 4' is true" is a redundant statement makes that portion of the article non-NPOV. Certainly, in an article about the statement "'3 is less than 4' is true", such a mention would be appropriate--and the article would certainly be non-NPOV if it weren't there.  However, this is an article on the metaphysical and logical notion of "truth", and the statement in question was simply an example of an evaluation of the truth of a certain phenomenon.  Whether that statement is itself true (or redundant) is irrelevant; thus, that no mention of such POV is made does not make that particle of the article non-NPOV. Kurt Weber 18:44, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I think "Dot6"'s point is that an article on truth should be more inclusive than an examination of the meaning of true in a sentence such as "P is true". I think there are all kinds of pitfalls (the obtuseness of the paragraph on Henry being just one of them) to taking a broader view of "truth", but I do think it valid to mention them & link to other articles that deal with them. I invite Dot6 to write such a broader introduction without making the subject of the introduction the entire field of philosophy ...

?Maybe you missed the philosophy flag at the top of this page? -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 21:16, 17 July 2005 (UTC) Template:philosophy


 * ... but have to add that given the Henry section, this is likely to be a difficult process. I also note that in the introduction to the article has existed in its present form for many months (before Banno). I also note that the article, in discussing "P is true", already touches on some of the very same issues a "broader meaning of Truth" would consider (such as truth as a property).--JimWae 19:05, 2005 July 17 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, the now defunct version of the intro was indeed written by myself; see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Truth&oldid=4553796 ; The mathematical example I added a few weeks later. That is the reason that I have withdrawn from editing the article during this discussion. Banno 09:51, July 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * On the other hand "Dot6 also SEEMS to argue that the deflationary theory is the "correct" view ...

That is not true, I do not argue that the deflarionary theroy is the correct view, I am merely pointing out that to preserve a neutral point of view NPOV throught the article *INCLUDING IN THE LEAD SECTION* Manual of Style there should be balanced placement OF ALL points of view. The old lead section paragraph paragraph concerning "It is true that 3 is less than 4" is POV in that it ignores the opposing point of view (explained in section 2.2 of the article) that that statement is redundant, which is a legitimate oint of view. Both points of view need to be included to achieve Wikipedia:Neutral point of view NPOV. -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 21:16, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * ... & that a broad discussion of truth is unnecessary - but why then does s/he keep inserting that jargon-filled paragraph that deal with the "truth of life" or whatever? --JimWae 19:05, 2005 July 17 (UTC)

That doesn't come from DotSix. -- 67.182.157.6 21:16, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * so then the article is an examination of truth (noun form of true), as it appears in sentences such as "P is true" - and one of the analyses is the deflationary view. The lead does not say the deflationary view is wrong, nor does it ignore the posibility that it is right --JimWae 21:27, 2005 July 17 (UTC)
 * Btw, not every philosophy article need deal with all of philosophy--JimWae 21:27, 2005 July 17 (UTC)

1. JimWae, your suggested revision of the lead section is still biased towards one point of view. Let's agree to leave out anything that entails such bias, because it is not in accord with the NPOV policy, what do you say? -- DotSix 67.182.157.6

Monday, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Rhobite says (see above), "Wikipedia is not a dialog," but the policy statement on neutral point of view policy says to present both (or ALL, if there are more than two) points of view side by side, in a neutral fashion, so the reader can compare and contrast them.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view#What_is_the_neutral_point_of_view.3F "What we mean isn't obvious, and is easily misunderstood. There are many other valid interpretations of 'unbiased,' and 'neutral'. The notion of 'unbiased writing' that informs Wikipedia's policy is 'presenting conflicting views without asserting them.' This needs further clarification, as follows."

"First, and most importantly, consider what it means to say that unbiased writing presents conflicting views without asserting them. Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view; it does not assert the most popular view is correct after presenting all views; it does not assert that some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness). Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of the p-ists and the q-ists, allowing each side to give its 'best shot' at the other, but studiously refraining from saying who won the exchange."

"A point here bears elaboration. We said that the neutral point of view is not, contrary to the seeming implication of the phrase, some actual point of view that is 'neutral,' or 'intermediate,' among the different positions. That represents a particular understanding of what 'neutral point of view' means. The prevailing Wikipedia understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct."

-- 67.182.157.6 16:52, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

1. Asbestos asks (creating a new section, below, to ask it), "Exactly which section of the article is in dispute?" From my humble point of view it looks like it is the LEAD SECTION (the intoduction) that is in dispute, and that is where the "neutrality in question" flag is displayed. What does it look like from your point of view, Asbeerstos? -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 21:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Any answer to this question, Asbestos? --DotSix 67.182.157.6 23:54, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

2. The last edit of the lead section by Asbestos read, "... Such sentences appear to be evaluating the quoted statement." It might appear that way from one point of view, but the goal here is to eliminate bias, and have the lead section worded in such a way as to preserve a neutral point of view (giving all points of view equal space). Best regards, and thanks for the interesting exercise in principled negotiation. -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 21:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Anything to say concerning this, Asbestos? --DotSix 67.182.157.6 23:54, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Philosophy banner and NPOV banner
Dot six, I appreciate the fact that you're an admirer of the Philosophy banner, but it's already been posted three times in this talk page, and doesn't need to be posted in the main article. If you look at the other articles in the WikiProject Philosophy, you'll find that none of the articles put the project banner on the article page. It's not done, it's not necessary, and it makes the page look ugly (the latter is my POV and is not the reason why it should not be up). Wikiproject banners go on the talk pages (see guidelines). You also insist on putting the NPOV banner up. Could I suggest you replace it with NPOV-section in the appropriate section, so that the specific area of dispute can be highlighted? &mdash; Asbestos | Talk  17:59, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

(I have moved my comments on the issue of keeping bias out of the lead section to the section of this discussion concerning the lead section, above.) --DotSix 67.182.157.6 23:54, 18 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I think you've been asked before not to edit people's comments. That includes removing section headings in the talk page. &mdash; Asbestos | Talk  22:11, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Recent compromises
The latest edit by Dot67 gives prominent mention (and even discussion) to the deflationary theory - to an extent that it is or approaches editorial POV. NPOV was already affirmed THREE ways in the earlier edit with
 * "if any"
 * appear to be evaluating the quoted statement

From one point of view a statement of the form, "It is true that snow is white" might appear to be evaluating the statement, "snow is white," but not everyone agrees with that; some see it as redundant, and are of the view that saying simply, "Snow is white" is perfectly sufficient (See ). We can't reasonably favor one bias over another in the lead section. In my opinion that would not be in keeping with the WikiPrinciple that avoiding bias should be a primary concern.


 * but as we shall see, this is one of the issues about truth that philosophers dispute

I would change the last to
 * - this is one of the issues discussed below. (See )
 * --JimWae 21:15, 2005 July 18 (UTC)
 * Quite so. Furthermore, much of the article is about non-philosophical uses - sections 4, 5, 6 and the quotations. The present introduction misrepresents the content of the article. Banno 09:32, July 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * This article is part of WikiProject Philosophy, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to philosophy on Wikipedia. If, from anyone's personal point of view, there appears to be material included that is irrelevant to WikiProject Philosophy, he or she should explain what, where, and why, in Talk:Truth, don't you think? -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 14:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I assumed you had read the article. my appologies. Banno 20:45, July 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * Your slyly disparaging argument _ad hominem_ is noted. 8^)


 * I have read the article. But evidently you haven't read all the recent discussion, have you? See below for my point of view concerning preserving neutrality in the lead section (introduction) of the article. Any comments on that, or do you just want to just concentrate on writing your next bit of slyly disparaging argument _ad hominem_ instead of trying principled negotiation?


 * Just in case the idea behind a WikiProject isn't clear: The Philosophy WikiProject doesn't "own" the article Truth, and isn't "in charge" of the article. Articles in a project are there so that there can be some centralized discussions and standards between articles. If there are relevent sections in this article which aren't specifically relevent to philosophy, such as the section on True Testimony, that's fine. We don't need to get rid of it just because it's not a topic in philosophy. Note, for the record, that this article was started in March, 2001, while the Philosophy Project was started in April 2004. &mdash; Asbestos | Talk  15:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

1. The search for truth is one of the major topics of philosophy, so, from my point of view, ANYTHING that has to do with the terms 'true' or 'truth' (or related terms like 'verity', for example) is relevant. But as I see our situation here, the issue is a difference between two points of view in philosophy being represented fairly in the lead section of this article. On the one hand the point of view that a statement of the form, "Snow is white is true" is seen as evaluating the statement, "Snow is white." And on the other hand a different point of view which does not agree, it sees statements like "Snow is white is true" as redundant, and that saying simply, "Snow is white" is perfectly sufficient. See Deflationary theories in the article.

2. From my point of view, in resolving disputes over neutrality issues, it is far better that we acknowledge that all sides must be presented fairly, and make at least a college try at presenting the other sides fairly, particularly in a place so prominant as the introduction (the lead section), to an article about truth, don't you agree? -- DotSix 67.182.157.6 15:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

See Npov:

"Those who constantly attempt to advocate their views on politically charged topics, and who seem not to care about whether other points of view are represented fairly, are violating the non-bias policy ('write unbiasedly'). But the policy also entails that it is our job to speak for the other side, and not just avoid advocating our own views. If we don't commit ourselves to doing that, Wikipedia will be weaker for it. We should all be engaged in explaining each other's points of view as sympathetically as possible."

"In saying this, we are spelling out what might have been obvious from an initial reading of the policy. If each of us is permitted to contribute biased stuff, then how is it possible that the policy is ever violated? The policy says, 'Go thou and write unbiasedly'. If that doesn't entail that each of us should fairly represent views with which we disagree, then what does it mean? Maybe you think it means, 'Represent your own view fairly, and let others have a say.' But consider, if we each take responsibility for the entire article when we hit 'save', then when we make a change that represents our own views but not contrary views, or represents contrary views unfairly or incompletely, surely we are adding bias to Wikipedia. Does it make sense not to take responsibility for the entire article? Does it make sense to take sentences and say, 'These are mine'? Perhaps, but in a project that is so strongly and explicitly committed to neutrality, that attitude seems out of place."

"The other side might very well find your attempts to characterize their views substandard, but it's the thought that counts. In resolving disputes over neutrality issues, it's far better that we acknowledge that all sides must be presented fairly, and make at least a college try at presenting the other sides fairly. That will be appreciated much more than not trying at all."

-- DotSix 67.182.157.6 14:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Archives
The archives are a mess. Material relevant to the present discussion has been archive - in some cases, only a day after it was posted; and the two new archives appear to contain much the same material! Perhaps someone who knows what they are doing could take a look? Banno 09:28, July 19, 2005 (UTC)