Talk:Tsukihime, Lunar Legend

Titling
Reading Manual_of_Style_for_Japan-related_articles, I decided Shingetsutan Tsukihime qualifies as 'widely known' due to its US publication by Geneon Ent. and reverted the names to the English style, with the Japanese form shown in italics after the kanji per the example given. Duty 05:49, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Article Title Change and Redirect
I think that this article should be retitled, "Lunar Legend, Tsukihime", and have "Shingetsutan Tsukihime" redirect to it. As there is now a proper US release and the names are presented in the Western style, I think this would be more appropriate. Js2756 17:54, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

OK, but is the comma official? -Seventh Holy Scripture 23:47, 27 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Argh! I made a mistake in the title.  Apparently I got it backwards, and the title is actually "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend" according to Geneon's website.  Will make appropriate changes. -Js2756 00:29, May 28, 2005 (UTC)


 * there is actually another parallel article to this one here: tsukihime -Minakomel 11:03, November 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * Not quite. Tsukihime is the game while Tsukihime, Lunar Legend is the animated series based on it. -Seventh Holy Scripture 18:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I vote No on a merge and redirect as I did previously on the Tsukihime page. On that page the consensus is No for the process. That said, I would change my vote to Yes if THIS article were to be merged into the other instead. Honestly, though, the anime and game are sufficently different in almost every regard except for character names and basic plot. Merging the two would be like merging all seperate articles on various cars under ONE article entitled Cars. Nezu Chiza 18:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe that this entry should titled Shingetsutan Tsukihime as this is the official original Japanese title of the series and I believe that all of the anime and manga articles should be titled under their original Japanese titles, in view of accuracy, and most of the best featured articles already are. For example, see Wikipedia's articles on Rurouni Kenshin and Cardcaptor Sakura entries, who both incorporated the original Japanese titles in their entries, as opposed to the titling given by English licensers. And also, an important point is that almost all of the references given to this article is under the name Shingetsutan Tsukihime. - Ganryuu 17:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This is in violation of Naming conventions, which says "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Wikipedia does not give priority of article names to "official" names (although I have argued for this in the past).  This is an issue that has been visited time and time again in anime articles on Wikipedia.  I don't know about Rurouni Kenshin, but Cardcaptor Sakura is the most recent English release of the series, using the original name, episodes, and so on.  In other words, Cardcaptor Sakura is both the original title as well as one of two English titles. I understand your objection to this guideline, and in many ways I agree.  But when this is an issue you should bring it up in discussion and form a consensus first before taking action. You may wish to address this issue at WikiProject Anime and manga. -- Ned Scott 05:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding your claim that the title "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend is 'more familiar' or 'recognizable' to the 'majority' of English speakers" - what evidence or authentic reference is there to the alleged popularity of this term, and indeed the claim itself? If a company wishes to license a title and give it a new name, how does it automatically make the term recognized? Moreover, the fact of the matter is that the title Shingetsutan Tsukihime is very recognizable itself to a large portion of English speakers and the large number of websites, blogs, anime reviews, fanlistings all point to Shingetsutan Tsukihime as being a recognized title, even by a large majority of English speakers, ever since its first broadcast - this is a fact which cannot be denied, and therefore the inaccurate claim that the titling is "violation of naming coventions" is completely incorrect and in my humble opinion, absurd. What is also evident is the fact that the other articles relating to the Shingetsutan Tsukihime anime series in other Wikipedia sister language projects, such as the Français, Nihongo and Suomi Wikipedia versions all refer to the series as Shingetsutan Tsukihime as well. And regarding the claim of consensus, the original title of this entry was Shingetsutan Tsukihime and I never recalled any consensus being reached regarding the changing of this title from the original Shingetsutan Tsukihime to Tsukihime, Lunar Legend. Secondly, the naming conventions is merely a general guideline, and in many cases, the original Japanese title of a particular anime and manga series, such as Rurouni Kenshin is much more popular and recognized than the English title (e.g. Samurai X), even though all OVA and TV series broadcasts were named Samurai X by their respective licensers - therefore such claims have been refuted comprehensively by such clear evidences and examples.Therefore, my case is that the term Shingetsutan Tsukihime is recognizable to a large amount of English speakers themselves and moreover, as this is the official title of the anime and manga series, in view of encyclopedic accuracy, must be named as such, even when both cases are combined. - Ganryuu 07:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, ok. The English distribution was done under the title "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend", that alone should be enough to prove it as a more recognizable title. Shingetsutan Tsukihime is probably more well known to those who watched the fansubs, but they are the minority. "If a company wishes to license a title and give it a new name, how does it automatically make the term recognized?" uh, it doesn't "automatically" do it, it's rather a deduction of logic that this occurs.  In theory, after an anime is licensed fansubs should not be distributed, thus since that point in time and into the future, the title that will be seen by the vast majority of fans, new and old, will be "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend".


 * How the article is titled in OTHER LANGUAGES is completely ill-relevant. The point is to make it more recognizable, not to choose the one we like best.


 * Again, official names mean nothing for article titles. Recently I was involved in a discussion to move United States to United States of America, where in which many wikipedians made the argument that other encyclopedias used the "un official" name of "United States". (Requested moves/United States).


 * Googling "Shingetsutan Tsukihime" gives "about 172,000", and "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend" is "about 252,000".  So there goes your claim that websites prove your point.  The Anime News Network calls it "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend"  too.


 * Oh, and the actual TV series of Rurouni Kenshin was done under the title "Rurouni Kenshin", just not the movie and OVAs (and the article is about the manga too, which is also titled "Rurouni Kenshin" in most English speaking countries). -- Ned Scott 09:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Firstly, in my very humble opinion, and with all due respects, your statement that the actual title of the anime series, Shingetsutan Tsukihime, is "probably more well known" to "those who watched the fansubs" and as "a minority" is inaccurate and unsubstantiated. Can you kindly provide evidences and authentic references for this particular statement? I'm sure you would agree that mere perceptions of logic do not count as references, no? There are many English-speakers around the world, from Japan to the United States itself, who refer to this anime as Shingetsutan Tsukihime - this is a fact, is it not? Secondly, with all due respects, the title which will always be the true, original and actual title of this anime series is Shingetsutan Tsukihime which was the title chosen by the authors behind this anime series, and I'm sure you would agree, wouldn't you? Also, the statement that the title Tsukihime, Lunar Legend will "be seen by the vast majority of fans, new and old" is rather a major exaggeration and rather more of an unsubstantiated prediction, is it not? Also, it is a fact that Shingetsutan Tsukihime is a rather recognized title and is well known, also by authentic references - please kindly see Animenfo.com's [LINK REMOVED] - does not such a well-known referenced source prove, as well? The issue here is relevance, I'm sure you would agree, and it is a proven fact that the title Shingetsutan Tsukihime is a recognized title, and rather well known as well, therefore the statement that the use of this well-recognized title is supposedly a "violation" of such a general guideline as "naming conventions" is, in my most humble opinion, incorrect. I would also, with all my due respects, like to request you, to please kindly not remove the information which I am adding (I'm sure you did not mean to, of course, but I am just informing you that your reverts of certain edits are removing certain material and formatting) as I'm trying to rewrite and re-furnish this entry, as I discovered that much of the plot information and character info in the earlier versions were copied from other websites - and I've already substantially rewritten a majority of the information regarding the plot storyline, and am planning to write completely new character information, perhaps new character pages, so that the seiyuu information in the front page does not get clogged, etc (it was I myself actually who added the English voice casting information). Please see this as nothing more than friendly discussion to improve the content of this page, as I'm sure we would all wish to improve the accuracy and content of this entry. - Ganryuu 11:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to say this as nicely as I can: Knock off the fucking bullshit. Who else would have seen the anime under a different title than those who watched the fansubs? If someone can only speak English, and not Japanese, as it is with the vast majority of English speakers, then why on earth would they know it under the other title? You have nothing to back up any of your claims.  I took both your examples and disproved them, you have nothing to say to that? I found evidence to show that more people use "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend" in Google searches, you have nothing to say to that?  You somehow try to argue what the original title is, despite that no one is trying to argue that at all.  You have nothing at all to back up your claim, because you can't. -- Ned Scott 12:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I personally don't believe that comparision of Google searches are a 100% accurate method of judging relevancy, and that as Shingetsutan Tsukihime is the original official title of this anime series and has been noted by references such as Animenfo.com and others, including Geneon's own official website for this series (note - look at the wallpapers section - you will see the titling as Shingetsutan Tsukihime), so my point. But really, as I said, I meant this to be a friendly and civil discussion, but so, is there really a need to use such distasteful language? It is not such a major matter, therefore why use such language while discussing? Please read Civility and avoid such rudeness while discussing. - Ganryuu 13:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry to burst your bubble, Ganryuu, but Google searches are a well-established method of determining which title is more commonly used. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  14:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * ... er, and I'm getting 173,000 Google-hits for "Shingetsutan Tsukihime", and only 161,000 for "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend". (And the majority of the first 100 hits for the latter are not actual people, but advertising.) –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 07:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The discrepancy stems from the use of surrounding double quotes (you did, Ned didn't.) Not using the quotes adds about 60,000 additional hits, mostly "Lunar Legend Tsukihime" or such permutations. -Seventh Holy Scripture 08:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah. Amusingly I note that "Lunar Legend Tsukihime" appears to be used significantly more often by real people (again, going from a quick scan down the first hundred Google hits). –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 08:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oddly enough, if we're still going by google pages, then the name of the article should be changed to Shingetsutan Tsukihime. There are ~220k links under the japanese name, 218k if you put quotation marks around it. On the other hand, Lunar Legend Tsukihime now gets 82k links, of which ~54k are for that particular ordering, and ~25k are for "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend". Strange that the popularity of the japanese spelling has gone up (if mildly so) while the dubbed version's name has gone drastically down. 216.239.83.116 00:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Very interesting, Aponar Kestrel, you're actually quite correct. If we were to talk about relevancy of titles, Lunar Legend Tsukihime is probably the better used, as opposed to "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend" - the title of the English edition of its manga and the title of the anime in its Animax-Asia broadcast and Australian (Madman) distributions is Lunar Legend Tsukihime, and as far as I have seen, even the official Geneon US releases of the soundtracks of this anime is titled under Lunar Legend Tsukihime. Also as far as I can tell, this article was re-titled "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend" mainly because the anime's "official" American-distribution title used by Geneon - sort of amusing, isn't that, when we compare? - Ganryuu 13:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, common problem. Air (anime) is a good example. Not only is the name very confusing but it was also based on a game (visual novell). conducting a search on wikipedia for Tsukihime will give you the game. The game page lacks information about the anime/manga which is kind of dissapointing. I find the original title shingetsutan tsukihime more appealing and correct. "Lunar Legend Tsukihime" would in this case be more correct since "Tsukihime, Lunar Legend" would confuse it with the game Tsukihime.

About the meme
There's an odd internet meme on 4chan where someone posts an image of Arcueid Brunestud with cat ears, and then people post random variations of the name, such as Atari Dumbledore. I don't get it myself, but I thought it was worth mentioning.


 * Probably originated from http://ochiba.muchan.org/img/00/000857-tsuk-016-f-goofus.jpg -Seventh Holy Scripture 18:37, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Language icons and character format
The language icons are supposed to be positioned on the right, just after the actual links - I believe this is referenced in the Template:Languageicon documentations - please see the relevant info there for more information. Also, in the characters section, it is to be formatted in a and  method, like the one preferred by Nihonjoe and the Nihongo template should be added after each Japanese name - I do not see how this is excessive. - Ganryuu 12:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I did finally see where the lang icon said that (although I've always seen it in front of the links). There is no reason to bold the whole first line for the characters, it just looks ugly.  And the Nihongo template is only meant to be used for the initial usage of Japanese characters, as it is just a help link about it appearing correctly in the user's browser. -- Ned Scott 12:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Character information, plot and rewrite
I would wish to request Ned Scott to stop removing the character information and format which I am trying to add. I am trying to rewrite and refurnish this entry and create new plot and character information, and wish to request Ned Scott not to revert back to the earlier character information, which was copy-pasted from another website, a major offense. If you wish to make improvements, then let us discuss - but please do not remove the character formatting and information in such a manner and revert to a previous version which contains copyright violations. - Ganryuu 12:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * While I have reverted the article to change it from a redirect, and edits relating to that, I have not selectively removed content from the article at all. Any "edits" I did were generic and had little to do with the actual character descriptions. Your comments are border-line trolling, and if you don't stop I'll ask an administrator to look into the issue. -- Ned Scott 12:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite
I have now completely rewritten the plot information, adding much more information, as well adding new character profiles for Shiki Tohno and Arcueid Brunestud. I've also formatted the character information in such a way which I think is neater, fixing earlier concerns. New character information regarding the other characters will follow soon. - Ganryuu 16:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Roa/Nero
I changed Roa to Nero, this is because the first vampire Shiki encounters with Arcuied is Nero. I will change it back to Roa if theres an issue. -- Psi edit 19:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Main/Secondary Characters
Hey I'm not too sure but I think Nero should be a secondary character, because he's doesn't consistently appear throughout the anime. AzureIcicle 00:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)