Talk:Tsukioka Yoshitoshi

Untitled
Following Wikipedia policy on article names (which says "What .. would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?") we have been listing Japanese woodblock prints artists under the names they are commonly known by in the West - which means we do not use their complete names (which are rarely used in the West, and for artists of this era change over time anyway). Please see Talk:Sharaku for an extended discussion on this topic. Please leave them where they are. Thank you. Noel 20:28, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In an attempt to see whether the woodblock artist Yoshitoshi is the most common user of this name, a web search revealed the following somewhat confusing counts for pages in English:

Yoshitoshi 63,100

In attempt to find out how many referred to subjects other than the woodblock artist, I tried this search:

Yoshitoshi NOT (print OR prints OR woodblock OR ukiyo OR ukiyo-e OR Taiso OR Tsukioka) 26,100

This result (that 37,000 contain "Yoshitoshi" along with one of the terms above) would seem to indicate that over half the pages referring to "Yoshitoshi" are talking about the woodblock artist. However, here are some counts for some of the non-woodblock Yoshitoshi subjects which I know of:

Yoshitoshi Mori	1,820 (contemporary artist) Yoshitoshi Abe 10,300 (anime artist) Yoshitoshi Records music 30,500

(I used "Yoshitoshi Records music" since if you just search for "Yoshitoshi Records", many of the entries that turn up are for database records of the woodblock artist).

Note that the sum of these three is considerably more than the supposed count of non-woodblock Yoshitoshi pages! However, it is not due to the inclusion of the terms "print" and "prints" in the earlier search causing it to count pages which use the word "print" for something other than the woodblock print (such as "records in print"), as the following search results indicate:

Yoshitoshi records print 2,040 Yoshitoshi records prints 323

So had these pages been dropped from the original search for non-woodblock Yoshitoshi pages, we should get at most about 28,460 pages, and indeed this search:

Yoshitoshi NOT (woodblock OR ukiyo OR ukiyo-e OR Taiso OR Tsukioka) 28,900

confirms that. So how there can seemingly be 30,500 entries for Yoshitoshi Records, as well as 10,300 for the anime artist, when there are only 28,900 entries total which are seemingly not related to the woodblock artist is extremely confusing! Noel 03:07, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is a tricky problem actually. I know that many Japanese artists are known for just their first name, like Basho and Yoshitoshi. But we usually put the surname even for them. The primary problem is that a given name frequently conflicts. Unfortunately, Yoshitoshi, for instance, is a common given name in Japan. We need to cover Japanese figures, ones well known in the West and obscure ones alike. Honinbo Shusaku, for instance, is usually referred as just Shusaku but we use a complete name, largely for consistency. -- Taku 20:33, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * I understand all that, and if it were up to me, we would always put articles for everyone under their full names, with links from their common names. However, that's not Wikipedia policy, alas (and it's a fight I lost on naming the members of the Medici family). Also, for Yoshitoshi, one has the choice of listing him as Taiso Yoshitoshi or Tsukioka Yoshitoshi. And of course for Hokusai the naming situation is a nightname... Noel 20:50, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hokusai, Utamaro and etc. etc. That is true. I will do more research on this issue and so for now, I will leave this to you. I will let you know if I need this move again, or let me know if I forget to inform you :) -- Taku 20:53, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Similar content
For an article with overlapping content, see Sinister Designs. "© All contents copyright Sinister Designs, unless otherwise noted."


 * It may be that they copied some of the material on my original Yoshitoshi biography page which is quite old (in Internet terms - it dates from at least 1999). That page, which is the source of the material on this page, I definitely wrote from scratch, using the various materials I had at hand at that time. Noel 13:46, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * And it's quite well written! Fg2 20:34, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

Yoshitoshi's death poem?
Does anyone know who the translator for Yoshitoshi's death poem was [he certainly didn't write it himself in English ;-) ]? It is a pet peeve of mine that I hate seeing uncredited translations all over the internet. I can't change the rest of the internet, but hopefully I can reform some of the Wikipedia. gK [[User talk:GK|¿?]] 06:51, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I got it from John Stevenson, Yoshitoshi's One Hundred Aspects of the Moon. Let me go see if he gives a translation credit.... No, none given. (It's on page 49). It might be Stevenson, or he might have gotten it from one of his collaborators (named on the page after the title page), or it may have been floating (sic :-) around for a while in the print world. No idea, alas. Noel (talk) 05:04, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Then I think that should at least include the source of the translation of the poem in the article, even if we can't say who the translator is. gK [[User talk:GK|¿?]]


 * The article already lists Yoshitoshi's One Hundred Aspects of the Moon at the bottom, in the list of references. Noel (talk) 21:14, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

PS: I'd have to check to be sure, but I fairly strongly suspect it's given in other works (also listed there) in exactly that form. So I'm not even positive (going on for 10 years after I wrote the text) that that's where I got it from... Noel (talk) 21:18, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I did check, and van den Ing and Schaap (see page) give it as "Making the night seem brief, it outshone them all: the summer moon" (pp. 8), which is subtly different. No notation given as to who did the translation, though. Of the other two Stevenson books (also see page), "Women" doesn't give it, and "36 Ghosts" gives yet another variant (again uncredited): "Shining ever more brightly / The summer moon / Holds back the night". So it probably did come from "100 Moon" - I'll note the cite in the source of the page. Noel (talk) 20:17, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Overillustrated
This article had 11 of Yoshitoshi's illustrations, which is on the high side even though they're not fair use. There's already a link at the bottom to the Commons repository for Yoshitoshi images, so it's really not necessary to put a bunch of them on his article space. A few is more than enough to illustrate his style, and even now with 5 left a few more could be removed. I've gone through and removed all the links to the pics that are already on Commons (they won't get deleted even if no Wikipedia project is using them) and deleted a duplicate display of 1 pic (what was up with that?). The remaining ones are hosted on en but are also Commons migration candidates. Broken Sphere Msg me 06:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Full name for article title
There's no reason not to use his full name as the title, that's how it's displayed on JP wiki as well. - A Morozov  &#9001;talk&#9002; 11:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 25 July 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved Yoshitoshi → Tsukioka Yoshitoshi, Yoshitoshi (disambiguation) → Yoshitoshi. I will fix the incoming links. No such user (talk) 09:47, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Yoshitoshi → Tsukioka Yoshitoshi – No reason not to use the man's full name like all other similar artists of the time and style. His full name is used on Japanese wiki. The redirect was made in 2004 when Wikipedia was still new and conventions were not established, so this can be fixed now. I left a message about the move on the talk page, and nobody has objected in a month. A Morozov &#9001;talk&#9002; 02:38, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support; also titled Tsukioka Yoshitoshi on the Japanese Wikipedia. Dekimasu よ! 02:54, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment after the move, will remain as a R from given name, or should Yoshitoshi (disambiguation) be moved to the base title? 61.239.39.90 (talk) 00:08, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom, and move DAB to base name.--Ortizesp (talk) 01:02, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Comment. Having changed a hundred-odd links, I'm moving the dab page back to Yoshitoshi (disambiguation), and redirecting Yoshitoshi here as a R from given name. The subject is one of most famous artists of his era and very commonly referred to mononymously, which cannot be said for any of his namesakes on the dab page. No such user (talk) 10:10, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's probably best in this case. Dekimasu よ! 11:51, 1 August 2022 (UTC)