Talk:Tuesdee Testa

CITE LEAD
Thank you for this edit. My bad for not digging a bit deeper and finding that myself. Now, a general question about WP:CITELEAD (others are welcomed to provide opinions as well). There are quite a number of claims made in the article, but most of these seem to be things capable of being properly supported by cited content that comes later. So, perhaps, the citations (partly three for one statement) are not really needed in the lead. Unsupported statements in the lead that do show up in the body of the article probably should be removed per MOS:LEAD anyway, but the supported stuff probably doesn't need to be cited twice. If the wording of the lead is a bit MOS:PEACOCKy in some cases, then perhaps that can be tweaked so that lead is a bit more NPOV. Any opinions on this? -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:19, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed.  JGHowes   talk  02:15, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

MOS:NUMERAL
Does anyone know whether it's common for articles about horse racing or race horses to use Arabic numerals when describing things as lengths? Generally, MOS:NUMERAL seems to advise us to spell out numbers from 1 to 10 out when it comes to article content, but perhaps this is a type of exception that is made for sports results like mentioned in MOS:NUMNOTES. This is mainly related to the content of Tuesdee Testa. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:38, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, Arabic numerals such as in 1973 Belmont Stakes, a GA. Also, track lengths are typically given as 1¼ mi. or furlongs, etc.  JGHowes   talk  02:15, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I wasn't sure but do know that numbers aren't often spelled out in articles about sports and other types of competitions. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

DOB
I've removed the September 7 date from the infobox because I couldn't find it in the cited source. However, I could only see part of the cited LA Times because I only have a free subscription for newspapers.com. If the rest of the cited article mentions her full date of birth, then that info probably can be re-added. In that case, it should also be add to the MOS:FIRST sentence as well. I left the year of her birth as "1941", but the only thing that the source really says is that Testa was 27 years old at the time. For an article published on March 1, 1969, that would seem to be she was born between March 2, 1941 and February 28, 1942; so, it might be more correct to for the article to born 1941 or 1942 or something similar unless the exact year can be pinned down. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:05, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Someone at WP:RX was able to find a clipping for the rest of the article and I've added that to the citation; however, there's nothing in there about Testa's DOB or Testa at all for that matter; so, maybe it's not necessary at all other than for the sake of provide the complete source. So, all there is to work on is that the writer of the article stated that Testa was 27 years old at the time. Again, that's not really enough to narrow down her birth year to a single year. Maybe using circa in case like this is acceptable? -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:55, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess if you subtract 27 from the year of publication it gives you the year of birth but I recall one instance where she disputed her age, so I'll look for that after my morning appointment. But circa also works.  Atsme 💬 📧 12:48, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, but 1969 minus 27 equals 1942 which is not the year given in the article. However, as I posted above, she could have been born in 1941 and still be 27 years old on March 1, 1969. Circa was just a suggestion and I've really only seen it used in articles about persons from way back in ancient history, and not really in articles about persons born in 20th century. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:19, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Dark Mirage
Is there really a need for the stand-alone subsection Tuesdee Testa? There is, after all, a stand-alone article about Dark Mirage where content specific to the horse can be found. For sure, content relevant to both Testa and her riding of Dark Mirage is relevant (i.e. the last paragraph), but the beginning of the section seems to be just about the horse itself. Perhaps the subsection should be renamed to "1969 Santa Margarita Invitational Handicap" since that seems to be what most relevant to Testa and Dark Mirage with the rest of the content removed. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:15, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Absolutely - she was credited as being instrumental in the training of that highly notable Thoroughbred.  Atsme 💬 📧 12:49, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I get that she was the exercise rider for the horse, but that's all the sources cited in that section seem to say. This one and this archived version doesn't even mention Testa. This one does state she was the regular exercise rider, and this one states that she was an "exercise rider" and also was the "exercise girl" who rode the horse in a one particular workout. None of them seem to explicitly state she was instrumental in the training of the horse. How are you reaching that conclusion? Are there any other sources you've come across which might better support that type of claim? FWIW, there's also no mention of Testa in Dark Mirage, but that's not a very well-sourced or well-developed article and maybe there should be something about her there. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:13, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

"Dark Mirage’s 3 year-old campaign began in defeat, in March at Aqueduct, where she finished fourth, 7 1/2 lengths from the winner under jockey Ron Turcotte. It would be the final defeat of her career. After this race, it seemed as though Dark Mirage had gone to bed a girl and awoken a woman. Something had clicked and the click might well have come in the form of a 25 year-old brunette called Tuesdee Testa, who was the wife of King’s stable manager, Al."
 * Galloping/breezing/exercising racehorses before a race, or while in training is not a simple Sunday afternoon ride in the park; alot goes into it. Each person, including trainers, jockeys, Pony riders, exercise riders and even grooms, all play an important role in the process. The LA Times clip speaks volumes in relatively few words: "More important than her jockey career at the moment, however, is the work Tuesdee has accomplished preparing Dark Mirage for today's title-deciding, mile and one-eighth fixture. She is the regular exercise rider for the 3-year-old champion of 1968. The Santa Margarita which annually decides the feminine championship at Santa Anita may be the toughest test Dark Mirage ever has faced." Testa is also pictured with trainer King & Dark Mirage in the Racing Museum Hall of Fame but no text. Another clip in Bakersfield states: "Her most important job is exercising Dark Mirage, one of the finest fillies in the land." There's brief mention of Dark Mirage on pg 10, Daily Register, but there is some material about Testa's personal life that may be useful to the BLP. There are articles/books/magazines out there about Testa and Dark Mirage - they were a bonded pair - such as the following in Thoroughbred Horse, May 2013: (we need to locate the actual articles - maybe find someone who has access to Thoroughbred Horse and also NYTimes archives):


 * A good bit of information about her role follows Jim Murray's piece in the LA Times (1969) The bit about Testa wraps-up with the following:

"At a time when (male) jockeys boycotted races where female jockeys were riding and the presence of a woman in the post parade drew hisses and worse, Everett Kelly had nothing but praise for Tuesdee “I’ve had a few riders, and I’ve never had one as good as she is at the beginning. She has better hands and knows more about handling horses than Sammy Boulmetis did when he was starting out…she can do it all.“ (NOTE: Samuel L. Boulmetis Sr., born in 1927, was a skillful jockey who was inducted into the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in 1973. Of all the horses Boulmetis rode, the best was the great mare Tosmah, whom he guided to no less than 7 major stakes victories against fillies and colts.)"


 * Testa played a big role in transforming the little mare.  Atsme 💬 📧 02:35, 21 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Is there any reason the section about Dark Mirage can actually improve the Dark Mirage article? That article is poor in comparison to what has been added in this article's section. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 21:44, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , there's no reason that article can't be more engaging...and should be. I'll take a closer look at it tomorrow. If we can get it expanded enough, it could also be a DYK candidate.  Atsme 💬 📧 22:09, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Possible sources
Are either of you able to see this The New Yorker article. I can only see the free blurb, but perhaps one of you can see the full article. It seems like it has a lot of potential as a RS and it can be used even if it requires a subscription per WP:PAYWALL. It would have to be used as a RS though since websites requiring a subscription or registration aren't generally allowed to be used as an external link per WP:ELNO.

I found this and this from the The New York Times; they too require a subscription and I can't see them. There is also this and this from the Los Angeles Times. The first one requires a subscription, but the last one is free (it only mentions Testa once by name though) There is probably someone at WP:RX who has access to NYT and LAT archives who might be able to access them and assess them if neither of you can.

I also found this from Time and also this kind of interesting piece (a bit bloggish though) about her inspiring mothers to name their daughters "Tuesdee". -- Marchjuly (talk) 14:11, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Marchjuly and Atsme, I have NYT access and will email the two articles to you as pdf's. That digitized New Yorker article is only available to non-subscribers who have a NY Public Library card.   JGHowes   talk  16:42, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that . I ask at WP:RX about The New Yorker article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:52, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming you read those two NYT articles you sent me. Any suggestions on how to incorporate them into the article. The one dated March 23, 1969, is more about Testa as a jockey, but it does mention that she was living in Bayside, Queens at the time and that she was the 2nd woman to ride in a parimutuel betting race in New York. It does mention she has a daughter and even gives her name and also suggests that Testa probably was part of the reason for the crowd turnout that day. The March 30, 1969, article actually has a little bit more about her family life under the heading "Tuesdee Testa: Away From The Track, Just Like Any Other Housewife" which includes photos of she and her daughter and she and her husband shopping at a local supermarket". There are names of family members mentioned, but not much more. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:14, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe start a Personal life section? There's really not much beyond the racetrack for a standard Wikipedia bio, e.g., education, where now, etc. JGHowes   talk  14:10, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a good idea. I've asked about The New Yorker article at WP:RX. Perhaps there more background information about Testa in that article that can be used in such a section. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:38, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I did find another article about her here that actually has quite a lot of biographical detail about her even though its from a local paper. I was a bit concerned about the WP:CONVENIENCE link for WP:COPYLINK reasons, but it seems like a true reproduction (the whole paper is pdf'd) and the digifind-it.com website seems to be currently being used in quite a number of other articles; in other words, it's not on the WP:BLACKLIST. The biographical information in this source is sort of different that what's currently in the article (for example, the birthplace is different); so, I only added a sentence about her being the first to race at Monmouth Park. Perhaps there's a way to incorporate the stuff about her parents and her early childhood into the article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:13, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Someone at WP:RX was able to get The New Yorker article and has emailed me a copy. I haven’t seen it yet. Would either of you like a copy to look over? — Marchjuly (talk) 23:21, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Female or woman
Does it matter whether Testa is referred to as a female jockey or a woman jockey? For example, I think for professional sports "woman" is more commonly used, but I don't know remember how it might have been back in the 1960s. It seems as if some of the things I'm reading about Testa refer to her as a woman jockey whereas others use female. Should we just go with whatever the cited such says even if it introduces some inconsistency in the article? -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:37, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think it matters. "Women's" is more common nowadays in sports, as in WNBA or Women's Soccer. At the Olympics, events are referred to as Men's or Women's, such as swimming. Then there's the LPGA; back in the 1960s-70s, one might also hear people saying "lady jockey". Google seems to find "female jockey" the more prevalent nowadays, although "women jockeys" is often used, too. I don't see any reason why both can't be used in this article, especially if that's what the cite says.  JGHowes   talk  12:05, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's confusing, but I'm of the mind that woman is more representative of age, which begs the question, at what age do we consider a female jockey to be a woman? Woman refers to an adult female but not all female jockeys have reached adulthood. Many are still teenagers when they enter the sport. Testa was clearly a woman by the time she received her jockey license and was making history. I think female jockey is the better choice, as it is gender related whereas woman defines age/maturity, and age is yet another issue over which women struggle. I would use female relative to her professional role as a jockey, and woman relative to how she is referred in personal situations; i.e., her role as a mother, wife, etc.  Atsme 💬 📧 12:14, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand what you're saying about age and maturity; however, as JGHowes mentions above, the Olympics uses "Women's" even though there are quite a number of teenage girls competing in some events. The Olympics also have a junior version as well just as sports such as tennis and golf also have junior versions; so, maybe it's not so much having to do with age as it does with the level of competition you're at. An eighteen-year-old could actually be a girl's high school basketball player and a women's college basketball player or even women's professional basketball player in the same year. Anyway, I'm happy to go with the sources. What about "jockette" since that's used in The Daily Register source I found earlier today? That seems like a really outdated term that probably stopped being used decades ago. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:34, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't use jockette unless it's being used to demonstrate discrimination - it's considered an insult.  Atsme 💬 📧 19:55, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I thought it might be something like that; it certainly doesn’t seem to be any that would be used these days. Anyway, thanks for the clarification. — Marchjuly (talk) 23:18, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

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 * Tuesdee Testa-Santa Anita 1969.jpg