Talk:Tulkarm

Possible copyvio
The issue of this being a possible copyvio has now been raised on. - Mustafaa 06:39, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

section on name
What exactly does "the name was later literalised into Tul Karm" mean? Is anyone prepared to swear to it that "literalise" is really a word? I don't quite understand what it is meant to convey. Palmiro | Talk 18:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * My bloody fault - I used the word given in the source and I didn't look in a dictionary. I thought I understood what they were trying to say (changed from Tur to Tul for literary purposes; i.e. poetic alteration) - but I should have been more careful - I apologize. Ramallite (talk)  06:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I changed it to be even vague. Unfortunately we don't seem to have any authoritative source on the history of the name.  --Zero 00:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I found the following in the Encyclopedia of Islam (which is a professional encyclopedia written by scholars):
 * Tulkarm is not mentioned by the classical Islamic geographers and travellers, and the first solid mention of it comes from early Mamluk times, when at some time before 663/1264-5 Sultan Baybars divided it equally as ikta`s between two of his amirs, Badr al-Din Basari al-Sharnsi al-Salihi and Badr al-Din Baylik al-Khaznadari. In records from this time and later, the name appears at [typo for "as"?] Tulkarm, possibly from an Aramaic predecessor Tur Karma.  From the 10th/16th to the 19th centuries, the Ottoman tapu defteris mention it as a village in the nahiya of Kakun in the liwa of Nabulus.  In 995/1548-9, it had 190 households plus three bachelors, but at the end of this century, the number of households had fallen to 156 whilst the numbers of bachelors had increased to 20.  There are no references to any mosques or imams at this stage of its history.  Of Tulkarm's taxes, one-third was the ruler's khass, and part of the rest went to the upkeep of madrasas outside the town and to the complex of al-zahir Baybars in Cairo.  The sources are silent about the town from the 11th/17th to the 19th centuries, except for a reference to a learned Hanbali scholar, Mari b. Yusuf al-Karmi (d. 1033/1623-4) who lived there but who had been born in Jerusalem; a number of his writings survive in manuscript.

Where two dates are given, like "10th/16th", this refers to the Islamic and Western calendars. This source also gives some more recent history that can be used in our article. It cites original sources mostly in Arabic. Note that the "Tur Karma" possible origin is already mentioned in our article, though Zeq maliciously deleted the web source for it. --Zero 01:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Please add "possibly from an Aramaic predecessor Tur Karma" back into the Etymology section. The web reference mentioned by above is. Crash48 (talk) 14:29, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ BJackJS  talk 17:21, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Flag and Seal
Why does it display images of the flag and seal of the declared State of Palestine? Most articles on cities that have images of their flag and seal show it of the city, not the nation in which they reside. PiMaster3 19:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Israel (not Judaism)
I added this template not because Tulkarm is "part of Israel" geographically but because of its present status as the location of IDF checkpoints, a relevant aspect of Israel's involvement in the West Bank. At the same time, I removed the WP:Judaism template (and left a comment on that Project's talk page) because the mainspace article at present makes no mention whatsoever of Tulkarm in relation to the Jewish religion. ''-- Deborahjay (talk) 18:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)"'

Climate section needs editing
In the process of cleaning up the page, I found some overlapping content in the section on Climate that would benefit by some editing. -- Deborahjay (talk) 19:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Faulty etymology

 * Once again, Wikipedia disinforms.
 * The word 'kerem' is Hebrew, not Arabic, and means 'vineyard'. The word 'karim' in Arabic means 'generous'.
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 22:29, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The word 'kareem' in Arabic means 'generous', while 'karim or karm' in arabic means 'vineyard'. Khalil@

3 villages
3 (former) villages seem to be a part  Tulkaram today. Listing sources for them here:

Shweikah
NB: Shweikah is now just a redir to Tulkarem. No article, Tulkarm Governorate, NB loads of places with similar-sounding names, which has been mixed up by the best; proceed with great caution!
 * palgrid=153/193
 * https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q12219298
 * Baibars 1265 info
 * User:Huldra/Mamluk Jerusalem no 30: Al-Farisiyya
 * HA p137: p3 Suwayki (153/193) 7+ "In 1596, it appeared under the name of Suwayki in the Ottoman tax registers,  in the Nahiyas of Qaqun  of the Liwa Nablus. It had a population of 101 households, all Muslim, who paid taxes on wheat, barley, summer crops, olive trees, goats and/or beehives, and  a press for olives or grapes."<> Hütteroth and Abdulfattah, 1977, p. 137 <>
 * 1799: in Karmon, p. 170, see User:Huldra/Karmon
 * Shuweikeh in SWP map 11 (Jm), SWP, II: 153 (=with Guerin, based on Samarie I, p. 204?? or based on Samarie II,  353??)  NB: if it is the first, then it same mistake as in the Lubban-articles! From the context in Guerin, it is clear that the first Kh S. is  between Kafr 'Aqab and al-Bireh, that is on SWP map 17, not 11. The second one is  *this*  Shweikah. French-speakers needed!
 * Shuweika in 06JaffaTelAviv.jpg
 * Shuweikeh in Robinson and Smith, vol 3, 2nd app., p. 129
 * (Dauphin p. 759 (1536/1942): juts north of the village is Kh Shweikat er-Ras, Guérin, Samarie II, 353: Choueikeh; SWP II, 153: Shuweikeh;
 * (NB: Typo: the SWP-index-ref to SWP III:404 -> SWP map 25, must be Kh. Shuweikeh SWP map 25 (Jx), See also SWP III, 410) (See also: Suweikat: p. 124; z263 (148/120)
 * Palmer p. 192
 * Avi-Yonah p97 and Tsafrir p234 identify it with the Samaritan village Socho.
 * Also appears as Suweikeh and similar. Some possible mention in Eusebius.
 * 1922-data: p. 27
 * 1931-data: p. 57
 * 1945-data  pp. 76, 127, 177
 * 1961-data: Shuweika: p. 14
 * Some modern information in Salem A. Thawaba, Urban Growth of a City Under Siege: Tulkarm, Palestine Over the Past Century, Journal of Planning History 2009 8: 27 (ask if you can't get it).

Dhinnaba
NB: Dhinnaba is now just a redir to Tulkarem.
 * https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q12212638
 * palgrid=154/191
 * Baibars 1265 info
 * HA p138: z1  Dannana (154/191) 7+  "In 1596, it appeared under the name of Dannana in the Ottoman tax registers,  in the Nahiyas of Qaqun  of the Liwa Nablus. It had a population of 16 households and 3 bachelors, all Muslim, who paid taxes on wheat, barley, summer crops, olive trees, goats and/or beehives."<> Hütteroth and Abdulfattah, 1977, p. 138 <>
 * Dennabeh on SWP map 11 (Km), SWP II: 159; 06JaffaTelAviv.jpg
 * (Dauphin p. 761 (1542/1912):Guérin, Samarie II, 354: Dennabeh; SWP II, 159: Dennâbeh
 * Guerin, Samarie II, 354
 * Palmer p. 182
 * 1922-data: p. 27
 * 1931-data: p. 54
 * 1945-data pp 74, 124, 174

Irtah
NB: Irtah is now just a redir to Tulkarem.
 * palgrid=151/189


 * Baibars 1265 info,  Ibn al-Furat (pp 81, 209)
 * (pp. 142, 147)
 * for Crusader sources, see Talk:Nisf Jubeil
 * HA p139 Irtah (151/189) 7+ "In 1596, Irtah appeared  in the Ottoman tax registers,  in the Nahiyas of Bani Sa'b  of the Liwa of Nablus. It had a population of 43 households, all Muslim, who paid taxes on wheat, barley, summer crops, olive trees, goats and/or beehives,  and  a press for olives or grapes."<> Hütteroth and Abdulfattah, 1977, p. 139<>
 * SWP II:164;  According to 06JaffaTelAviv.jpg: on the West Bank, by Tulkarem 32.18 N 35.1 E
 * (Dauphin p. 763 (1518/1889): Guérin, Samarie II, 352: Artah; SWP II, 164: Irtâh; Records, p. 62 (XI Kn 2-9))
 * Palmer p. 182
 * 1922-data: p. 27
 * 1931-data: p. 55
 * 1945-data  pp 75, 125, 175
 * Extensive modern information in Salem A. Thawaba, Urban Growth of a City Under Siege: Tulkarm, Palestine Over the Past Century, Journal of Planning History 2009 8: 27 (ask if you can't get it).
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Irtah

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Tulkarm. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.jerusalemquarterly.org/images/ArticlesPdf/47-%20Landed%20Proerty.pdf
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_pcbs/phc_97/tul_t6.aspx
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_pcbs/phc_97/tul_t1.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101210081942/http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_PCBS/Downloads/book1487.pdf to http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_PCBS/Downloads/book1487.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100914010915/http://www.ims.gov.il/IMS/CLIMATE/LongTermInfo to http://ims.gov.il/IMS/CLIMATE/LongTermInfo

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 05:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Amad ed Din, on SWP map 11
There are two different Amad ed Din on SWP map 11, both apparently with significant Maqams.

The first is just north of Nablus, between Nablus and Asira ash-Shamaliya. This one is described in SWP II, pp. 170, 218, 220 According to the index, all these three SWP refs are  to Sh. 11, Mn. (or No, according to Palmer)

See also and Palmer, 1881, p. 178

The other Amad ed Din is just NE of Shweikhah, presently part of Tulkarm. Now, this is interesting, as according to Mayer, 1933, p. 73 there is a mausoleum there, with an inscription dedicated to Amir Aqush Al-Burunli, who died 1269 CE. Unfortunately, AFAIK, we dont have any pictures of either place on commons.

Also, I suspect the index  is wrong, and that SWP II, p. 220 belongs to this second Amad ed Din, at Km. Huldra (talk) 23:31, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Birat Sorqua
Its Birat Sorqa, not Birat Sorqua! In Semitic languages "q" is not always followed by a "u" as in most European languages. Menischt (talk) 09:05, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

"Tulkarm was made the administrative center of the Bani Sa'b subdistrict in 1886"
Nablus Sanjak lists five nahiyas ("subsdistricts"): Jamma'in East (21 villages), Jamma'in West (25 villages), Mashariq Nablus (20 villages), Wadi al-Sha'ir (23 villages) and Sha'rawiyya (24 villages). According to that, Bani Sa'b was not among the subdistricts. It cites a source, available online, which however doesn't include such a list. The claim in this article, on the other hand, cites two sources, neither of which is available online. Thus, both claims are equally dubious, and I'm not sure which one to keep, and which to remove. 147.234.72.52 (talk) 20:16, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It isn't necessarily a contradiction, because the names and boundaries of the nahiyas changed from time to time. I'll add another source and remove one. Zerotalk 12:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect information
There is no official State of Palestine. It is not recognized by the UN and is officially occupied territory by Israel pending Palestinian acceptance of a peace dea. 2607:FB91:E52:8772:712E:C69D:8FD4:E8D8 (talk) 23:50, 3 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Aren’t you special? Which of the hundreds of proposed peace deals turned down by Israel are you referring to? The UN has designated the West Bank as illegally occupied Palestine and that Israel is the “belligerent occupier.” LegalResearcherSTL (talk) 01:57, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * What? It was the Palestinian authority that turned down the 2 state solutions. BFBChiller (talk) 17:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Dead links etc
Why is this locked? There are several dead links. Not mentioned are the 100’s of attacks by the IOF on the Palestinians who live there. No mention this is a UN-designated refugee camps. Alternate spellings not given. LegalResearcherSTL (talk) 01:53, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The name
It is a classic case of original research to contradict a reliable source on the basis of a dictionary. Unless, of course, the dictionary refers specifically to the name of this place, not just to the parts of the name that you believe had particular meanings in the 16th century (or earlier) when the current version of the name arose. Place names do not follow the logic of ordinary words and their interpretation is a specialist subject. That being said, I have found that the previous text is not a good report of the source (Al-Salim), which documents that the earliest known Arabic name was Toorkarm (mountain of vines) and that Tur- changed to Tul- during the Ottoman period for unknown reasons. I will edit this soon. Zerotalk 08:02, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh come on, it's not original research! I happen to know that word in Arabic, and it doesn't mean mountain, so I fixed it, with reference to two dictionaries! (A dictionary of "modern written Arabic" and a dictionary of classical Arabic, including long before the 16th century.) The meaning hasn't changed for thousands of years. We don't have to pretend to be totally ignorant when editing Wikipedia. The purpose of the "no original research" rule is to prevent false information and things like that, not to prevent someone from correcting the meaning of a word in a language he knows. If the reference that was there did say that "Tulkarm" meant mountain of vines, then it would not have been a reliable source! A source that says something false is not reliable.


 * And I already put that it's a distortion of Tur Karma. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 14:38, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Every speaker of Hebrew knows that "shalem" is from the same root as "shalom", which has meant "peace" basically forever. That's how we get the popular interpretation of "Jerusalem" as "city of peace". However, the academic consensus is that it is a reference to the Canaanite god Shalim. Only an expert could make that connection. The moral of the story is that understanding the meaning of a name requires a study of its history, not just looking in a dictionary. In our case, the source gives two alternative explanations why Tur- became Tul-, both of them related to the Turkish spoken by the rulers of Palestine and neither related to the fact that tul=length in Arabic. So, even though I'm sure you are correct that "Tulkarm" can be read as "length of vineyards", it is a jump to conclude that that was ever the intended meaning. Zerotalk 02:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 April 2024
This article refers to “State of Palestine”. There is no such country. The legal name of the area is “ Palestinian Authority”.

}} 68.32.199.16 (talk) 19:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Tulkarm control
Tulkarm has been under Israeli control since 1967 so it’s not correct to say it’s part of “Palestine”, when it’s not anywhere near the semi-autonomous Palestinian governances in the West Bank. BFBChiller (talk) 17:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)