Talk:Tunganistan

Western exonym
@Yue "Western exonym" is a very strong claim for a political topic like this, especially for lead section. Lesser claims like "name" and "historical name" are fine.

Could you provide another source other than Andrew D. W. Forbes? Forbes doesn't even have a Wikipedia page, while he's making a claim on someone else who is more notable with a Wikipedia page.

A more NPOV way of state this would be: --Voidvector (talk) 02:59, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Use "historical name" instead of "Western exonym" in the lead
 * say 'Australian [insert occupation] Andrew Forbes claim "Tunganistan" was coined by the Austrian Mongolist Walther Heissig.'


 * I will implement your suggestion and then leave it as is until I add additional sources. Yue 🌙 03:02, 24 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Additional sources:
 * Andrew Forbes cites (in the passage I cited from Forbes' book) a map by Heissig and notes that two of Heissig's contemporaries used the name "Tungania".
 * Forbes' contemporary Laura J. Newby repeats the same source and claim that it is a Western exonym but not that Heissig coined it. Quote: "W. Heissig... uses the term 'Tunganistan' to describe the Tungan stronghold, but it is a purely Western appellation."
 * Forbes and Newby are qualified scholars:
 * (About author) "Andrew Forbes graduated in Chinese Studies at the University of Leeds before completing an MA in Islamic Studies and a PhD in Central Asian History. He is also a Senior Associate Member of St Antony's College, Oxford. He has been writing about Asian Affairs for more than 25 years, first as Lecturer in Islamic Studies at the University of Aberdeen, then as Editor of CPA Media."
 * "Laura J. Newby (Oxford University, Institute for Chinese Studies)"
 * Their claim that "Tunganistan" is an exonym (if not specifically "Western") is repeated and cited by:
 * Shirin Akiner, a scholar of Central Asia, wrote: "... aptly described, at least from a Turkic-speaking Muslim standpoint, as 'Tunganistan' ..."
 * S. Frederick Starr, a scholar of Eurasian studies, wrote that the regime was "dubbed 'Tunganistan' by outsiders."
 * Birgit N. Schlyter (see about author) et al., scholars of Central Asian studies, state: "The territories under his rule were called "Tunganistan" by some Western writers, although no formal government was ever set up."
 * Perhaps the claim that "Tunganistan" was coined by Heissig needs an additional layer of digging, but the scholarly consensus among experts on the topic is that it was and is an (Western?) exonym.
 * It's also worth pointing out that the terms Tungan/ Tungani / Dungan are themselves Western exonyms for Hui Muslims, who use the endonyms 回族，老回回，中原人.
 * The version of the article before my edits completely contradicts the sources cited. The claims made by previous editors of an independent "Tunganistan" state are, like the name itself, an invention by outsiders. Even a cursory glance of the available literature would lead to this understanding. Yue 🌙 04:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Great research, I think that is sufficient citations for the claim to be used in heading and short description. I did find Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition myself claiming the same thing. Of course, we can't cite an encyclopedia. So the claim of exonym seems well accepted in academia. I would add most of those as cites with quotes so it is uncontroversial to future editors.
 * Arguing "Dungan" is exonym is even more complicated, because while it is exonym in the Dungan language, but a lot of Dungans now do not speak the Dungan language anymore (you can watch Youtube videos to see this), so they will be referring to themselves as "Dungan" in Russian. But that's a separate topic. --Voidvector (talk) 04:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Fair point about the Dungan people. Yue 🌙 04:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)