Talk:Tuor and Idril/Archive 1

Category
Does Tuor really belong in the 'High Elves' category? First, the 'proof' of his change to an Elven fate appears only in 'Letters', other references state only that 'it is said' and are sometimes disputed. Even if we do accept that Tolkien meant for his fate to be changed (which seems certain to me) is he then a 'High Elf' - given that he came to Aman after the destruction of the Trees? Finally, wouldn't the equivalent logic of listing characters under 'what they ended up as' require that Lúthien be categorized as a human? --CBDunkerson 10:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Jumping on this wagon as the subject is already up: Why does it say "Men (later Elves, see history)" under the race tab? Unless I am mistaken, Tuor was not actually changed into an Elf (I do believe that's beyond the Valar? Or Manwë would've changed Beren) but just given the lifespan of one: like Lúthien who was Elven in all things save her eternal life. So Tuor would be the opposite: human in all things save his life that had been extended. Hackeru (talk) 23:08, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

'Conversion'
The statement that Tuor's conversion to the Elven race was an offset to the loss of Lúthien, is disputable and has not been stated as such in Tolkien's letter. It may have been Tolkien's intention that Tuor's conversion was a compensation for Lúthien's, but we cannot be sure about this. QuasarNL 19:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Illustrations
I added a couple of photos of my illustrations of Tuor done as manuscript pages. There's some disagreement on whether the Tengwar portion should be cropped out. As the artist, I feel the calligraphic section is integral to the work and should remain in. Any other opinions?Tttom1 17:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I see no reason whatsoever to crop the calligraphy. They're really very good work, and have the feel of an old manuscript. My only suggestion if you don't have a scanner would be to go to a Kinko's or someplace like that and make some good-quality, high-resolution scans of them. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, good to know they are being enjoyed. Most are in sharper focus at the final 'full resolution' page even when that's the same size as the 'preview' version, also the commons versions are sharper - have no idea why.Tttom1 03:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

One of three
Just a quibble. I realize that Tolkien himself called aragorn/arwen one of the three great unions of Elves and Men. But Arwen was herself a half-elf, and even her elf lineage includes sindarin and Maia ancestry. Wellspring (talk) 14:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * ...and a year and a half later I correct the article. Arwen is a half elf of mixed lineage (in fact, she's descended from Tuor himself). Luthien's mother was Melian, a Maia. Her father was Thingol Greycloak-- he's king of the Sindarin and therefore not one of the Eldar (Elves who accepted the call to Valinor). I have heard some people claim that since he once visited Valinor he should count as a High Elf, but this would be original research unless someone can produce a quote. There apparently has been at least one additional union of elves and men (the decendents of the Princes of Dol Amroth) but Tolkien is vague about the circumstances. Either way, in the face of all this complexity, it is far better to use the phrase "three great unions of Elves and Men", as this is attested in the source literature. Wellspring (talk) 17:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And I have subsequently corrected your edit. First of all, Tuor did not marry Arwen, but he married Idril Celebrindal, daughter of Turgon, the High King of the Noldor in Beleriand. So yes, Tuor married one of the Eldar. Furthermore, Arwen was not Thingol's daughter (that would have been Luthien, who wedded the Man Beren), but the daughter of Elrond Halfelven, born in the Third Age. The Eldar in turn are in fact all elves that originally followed the call of the Valar to leave the eastern parts of Arda, regardless whether they reached Valinor or stayed in Beleriand, so the Sindar are of course Eldar as well, making Thingol and his offspring one of them. 19:46, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * OK please re-read my comment carefully before replying. I'm referring to the three unions of Elves and Men: Aragorn and Arwen, Luthien and Beren, and Tuor and Idril. I didn't think I needed to explain who married who or go into elaborate detail of their parentage other than the parts that were necessary to concisely support my point, but for the record, there you go.
 * Tolkien described these as unions of "Elves and Men" -- "elves" not "eldar" -- and he did so for a reason. Idril was, as you state, of the Noldor and in fact was one of the original exiles. She's clearly Eldar. However, if the three great unions were between Men and the Eldar in particular, then which were the other two? Luthien's mother was Melian, a Maia. Luthien's father Thingol's affiliation we'll leave aside for the moment; formally his people are moriquendi but he did see the Two Trees with his own two eyes (as I said definitive status for Thingol isn't in any of the canon I've read and without a quote would be WP:OR). Either way, his daughter is at best half-Eldar. Arwen's lineage includes Noldor, Sindar, Teleri and even some Vanyar (and potentially Nandoran and/or Avari since the lineage of Nimloth and Celeborn are uncertain and actually inconsistent in canon). Plus of course Men and Maia. Hence why Tolkien worded the phrase the way he did.
 * You could go a step further and argue that of these three relationships, only Idril was truly a full-blooded elf and that the three unions weren't even completely with Elves. But that's how Tolkien described it, and so that's the way it is.
 * So my point is not that Idril isn't of the Eldar. As a Noldo who was in Valinor and saw the Two Trees for herself, this is indisputable. It's that the other two unions were not exclusively with Eldar, and therefore the three unions are best described as being with Elves, not just the Eldar, just as Tolkien wrote it. (On an unrelated note, please use your username when signing comments by signing with four tildes.update: oh nvm I see it just got truncated between your edits...) Wellspring (talk) 21:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Sundering of the Elves.png|thumb|400px|The Sundering of the Elves as perceived after the Exile of the Noldor (according to The War of the Jewels)]]Well, while Luthien and Arwen are in fact not full-blooded elves (with Melian being a Maia and Tuor and Beren being mortal), their elven lineage is actually completely Eldarin. Please remember that "Eldar" is a term that includes all those elves who left the Sea of Awakening, as opposed to the Avari who stayed behind in the far east. So, as you said, Arwen's lineage includes Noldor, Sindar, Teleri and even some Vanyar, who are of course all Eldar. You seem to confuse Eldar and Calaquendi but the Eldar category is several levels higher. Per the table in the appendix to the Silmarillion, we know that the Eldar include the Teleri, specifically Elwe (Elu Thingol) and his brother Olwe. Therefore the descendants of Thingol must be completely Eldarin in their elven heritage. And if Tolkien refers to a union between elves and Men then that it just the same as a union of Eldar and Men, not per OR but per the Simarillion and The War of the Jewels. De728631 (talk) 16:32, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Requested move February 26 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  16:03, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Tuor → Tuor and Idril

Following precedent seen in other "couple articles" within the scope of the Middle-earth Wiki project like Lúthien and Beren and Eärendil and Elwing, I propose that the Tuor be renamed and/or moved and expanded to include coverage for Idril Celebrindal. I consider that multiple sources which does discuss Idril in detail like Tor.com and [https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2031&context=mythlore#:~:text=Tolkien%20seems%20to%20be%20saying,Arda%20display%20these%20feminine%20traits.&text=Elrond%20has%20no%20need%20of,embodies%20those%20traits%20most%20feminine. The Feminine Principle in Tolkien] contains at least some passing mentions about Tuor, and vice versa for sources which discuss Tuor in detail like: Aeneidic and Odyssean Patterns of Escape and Release in Tolkien's "The Fall of Gondolin" and The Return of the King and Tolkien and Immortality and "In Defence of Tuor". There are other sources which discuss Idril in some detail, but probably not enough to support a standalone article by itself, and previous consensus is not in favour of a List of Middle-earth characters article with a relaxed inclusion criteria for characters without standalone articles. Tuor's article was also recently tagged with notability concerns, and while the current sourcing does satisfy GNG in my opinion, a reception section can be added if sources which primarily discuss Idril are included since these sources analyze her in that regard (she's wise, has agency etc). As for Tuor's in-universe story, his fate is ultimately intertwined with Idril and the elves as soon as he arrives in Gondolin, the inverse of Luthien when she marries Beren and becomes mortal. And from an out-of-universe perspective, Tolkien wrote that his friend CS Lewis' The Space Trilogy characters Tur and Tinidril were directly inspired by Tuor and Idril, and I see secondary sources like this one which quoted him on that point and discuss the characters within that context.

If consensus is established to move, Idril Celebrindal should point to the proposed article. Idril should remain its own disambiguation page due to the content I have since expanded on. Haleth (talk) 03:22, 27 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Support - I don't have any special view on this, but the move is basically practical and uncontroversial, and I'm happy to go along with it. I guess that since Idril is on the fringes of notability, the alternative of giving her a separate article is essentially a non-starter, so this is the best alternative. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:36, 27 February 2021 (UTC)