Talk:Turandot (Busoni)

Inspiration?
In investigating the Turandot story, I can across the dedication in this translated Turandot play on Project Gutenberg. It's not absolutely clear whether it is the original playwright or translator who dedicated this Turandot to Busoni. If someone has material on Busoni, it would be worth chasing this up as a possible inspiration for the opera.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * According to Beaumont (1985), p. 84: Busoni first wrote incidental music for a production of the Gozzi play to be produced by Max Reinhardt in 1907, but the production lacked a translation. "Eventually Karl Vollmoeller, a young poet and member of the George circle in Berlin, made a new translation and adaptation for the Deutsches Theater and, despite the horrifying expense of the orchestra, the production opened on 26 October 1911." The play had a short run. "A guest at one of the performances was Puccini and it was his later recollections of the spectacle that persuaded him to make use of the subject himself."


 * "The only other production of the play with Busoni's music was staged by Sir George Alexander in the St. James Theatre, London in 1913. Johan Wijsman (the dedicatee of the 'Berceuse' for piano) made an arrangement of the score for theatre orchestra without the composer's consent." [In a footnote: "This score recently turned up in a second-hand music shop in Birmingham and is now the property of the composer Giles Swayne. In the absence of the original MS, it is the only surviving version of Busoni's original incidental music."] "The reduced version sounded terrible and, as the producer had needed more music than was available, pieces by Rimsky-Korsakov and Saint-Saëns were interpolated. Busoni only discovered this state of affairs in the course of the opening night, with the result that he left the theatre in a rage after the second act and later tried to instigate legal proceedings against the director." --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The linked translation is that used for the St. James' production. It remains unclear whether it was Vollmoeller or his translator who made the dedication, but your information does explain how Busoni became interested in the subject.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

At some point it might be a good idea to split the the Turandot Suite into a separate article, since it is really a separate story. Busoni only decided much later to make the music into an opera, when he needed a companion piece for Arlecchino to fill out the evening, since otherwise Zurich would not mount a production. He composed Turandot rather quickly mainly for that reason. --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I've boldly added a couple of new sections on Gozzi's play and Busoni's development of the Turandot music. I think they cover what's being discussed here. The refs should all work, except I don't have the Beaumont refs for the 1913 letter to Gerda; perhaps Robert could fill them in if you think it's worth keeping. > MinorProphet (talk) 19:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll have to get to this later today or tomorrow. --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Puccini
BTW, Puccini attended the 1911 production of the play, not Busoni's later opera. See above. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This turns out to have been an error propagated by some earlier biographies and Beaumont's book. See this page on Google Books. --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Incidental music vs. suite
Dent, p. 152-3, inexplicably says Busoni first wrote the music for Turandot as a concert work and only adapted it later as incidental music. Busoni himself clearly describes it as incidental music in a letter to his mother dated 21 August 1905 (Beaumont, 1987, p. 76). This letter also allows us to calculate the exact date on which Busoni finished composing the music: 19 August 1905. Beaumont (1985), p. 76, states that the sketches contain 13 numbers, including music for the play which was designed for melodramas, e.g., music accompanying the riddle scene in Act 2. (Apparently some of the music did not find its way into the suite. Perhaps it was inappropriate for a concert work: too short and unworkable in the absence of the dialog.)

The concert suite appears to have been assembled from the incidental music concurrently and with forethought. Busoni, always (perhaps I should have said "sometimes") practical, and knowing that a production of the play with his music was going to be difficult and expensive to mount, had already arranged with Mengelberg for a concert performance of the suite in Amsterdam with Busoni as conductor, before Busoni had even finished composing it: this in a letter to Egon Petri dated 10 July 1905 (Beaumont, 1987, p. 75).

Dent also says Busoni rearranged the music from the suite as incidental music in 1911. Yes, Busoni did arrange the music and provide new music for the 1911 production: "Verzweiflung and Ergebung" is one example. But it was not necessarily arranged from the suite. No sketches, manuscripts, or scores from the 1911 production are known, so it makes it pretty hard to know for sure what was done. But the letter to Anna Busoni makes it clear that Busoni composed the music as incidental music from the very beginning. The odd thing is that Dent was apparently aware of the letter. The original letter is lost, and Beaumont's version of it is based on a typescript supposedly prepared by Dent himself! --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:49, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That's more like it. I was sure Busoni would have approached it like Aladdin; what Dent said just didn't feel right. I really will have to get Beaumont's book, he does seem to have a whole lot more information. I'll have a go at incorporating this info into the article. > MinorProphet (talk) 09:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Busoni seems to have offered the idea to Reinhardt, not the other way around
Beaumont (1985, p. 84) again describes the situation very differently from Dent. Beaumont states that Busoni "offered the idea [of Gozzi's play with Busoni's incidental music] to Max Reinhardt, who gladly accepted it. A production was scheduled for 1907 and Emil Orlik (who had recently returned from a two-year journey to the Far East and was considered the leading German expert on chinoiserie) was to design the sets and costumes." Because of difficulties ("lack of a usable translation and Busoni's steadfast refusal to change a note of the score, let alone reduce the orchestration"), the production did come about until 26 October 1911. (In the event Orlik did not participate, and Ernst Stern did the designs.) Perhaps Beaumont had the benefit of more recently discovered information of which Dent was unaware. Again it seems to me we should consider going with Beaumont on this rather than Dent. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:49, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That sounds like a much better explanation. I had been struggling to understand why Reinhardt should have made the offer: it just didn't feel as if it would have happened that way round. Will you make the changes? > MinorProphet (talk) 09:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps Dent thought Reinhardt had heard the suite; then it would not be unreasonable that he might ask Busoni for incidental music. (Still that seems a bit of a stretch.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 10:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I was hoping you would. Did you get the Beaumont excerpts? I sent you a message on the IMSLP Forum. (I will also send you copies of the letters.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The message is still in the Outbox. I don't know why there is such a long delay before it get sent. Maybe you will get it tomorrow. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think messages stay in the outbox until they get read. I'm revising everything at the moment. Thanks for the links. > MinorProphet (talk) 12:45, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Should we split the article?
Should we consider splitting the article into one on the suite (and incidental music) and one on the opera, similar to Beaumont's chapter organization? The way it is now, we will eventually have two sections on performance history, two sections on recordings, etc. We can provide a link in the opera article to the one on the suite for background on the early composition of the music and Busoni's interest in and selection of the play (and vice versa, the later composition of the opera). Better to do it now, rather than later. I am going to send you more letters today, which will be useful for the performance history of the suite and also when he finally decided to write the opera. --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's a bit unwieldy now - a split would be a good idea. > MinorProphet (talk) 19:28, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Pretty much done splitting now; check it out (Turandot Suite). --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Detailed list of performances
I think maybe it's better to keep the detailed list of performances at the bottom, since it is really kind of exhaustive and might ordinarily be information that would be relegated to an appendix in a book. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, one thing is certain: it is no longer a stub, so have changed to start. I've no fixed views on retaining the list of perfs. up above.  It's a bit unwieldy anyway, and I wonder if it really needs this extensive list.  But I'll leave to you al to decide. Viva-Verdi (talk) 17:08, 23 February 2014 (UTC)