Talk:Turkish delight/Archive 1

Untitled
To the Anonymous user who is creating the Lokum page. Please see my remarks on the Talk:Lokum page. -Rholton 02:24, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Note that "loukoumia" is the plural; I've moved the article to the singular, "loukoumi". Mkweise 18:58, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Page title
To the anonymous creator of this page:

I apologise if I have missed something that is obvious, and caused you to lose work. At first glance the content of the new Lokum page was identical to the content of the Loukoumi page. On closer examination, there seemed to be som superficial changes to the first paragraph to adapt the article to the new page name. Seeing no particular reason to have two essentially identical articles under different names, I erased the content of the new page and made it a redirect to the original page.

After you replaced the contents, I made a more careful comparison between the versions I based my original decision on, and found that you had also made some helpful edits to the content of the Lokum page. But none of them seemed to distinguish Lokum from Loukoumi. In other words, these helpful edits would be equally helpful to the existing Loukoumi page.

If you have future plans to distinguish Lokum from Loukoumi, please leave a mesage here so that I, and others who might do as I did, will understand.

If you are trying to improve upon the Loukoumi page, please simply edit that page. There is no need for a separate page in that cirsumstance.

Finally, you might be pleased to know that your work is not really "lost". Every version of every article is saved in its entirety in the associated Page History. It can easily be copied/pasted to a new edit of the page, reverting the page back to the version which I removed. See How to revert a page to an earlier version.

Thank you,

-Rholton 02:24, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I now see that you have made the page Loukoumi into a redirect to Lokum. This does resolve the issue of having two virtually identical pages. In the future, you can accomplish the same thing by "moving" (think renaming) the original page to the new name. This will automatically copy the contents from the old to the new, and make the old a redirect to the new. More importantly, it will preserve the revision history of the page as a unified whole. See How to rename (move) a page

As you may have guessed by now, I am not knowledgeable in the topic of this article. I am only interested in the standards and practices that have been recogized by the Wikipedia community. If you have not familiarized yourself with them, please see Welcome, newcomers.

Again, thank you for your contributions.


 * -Rholton 02:55, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This is English wikipedia. We should use the common English name, which is Turkish delight Mintguy (T) 03:05, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

original?
Portions of this page were lifted from an article in "Skylife," the in-flight magazine of Turkish Airlines.

http://www.atamanhotel.com/delight.html

Dating Ambiguity?
There seems to be some confusion on the date that Lokum was created:

In 1776, during the reign of Sultan Abdul Hamid I, Bekir Effendi, a fully apprenticed confectioner ...

The History of lokum dates back to 500 years, making it one of the oldest sweets in the world.

Which is it: 230 years old or 500 years old?

Contradiction
The dating contradiction exists because the author created the article by swiping sections from other web pages. If you google the "500 years" segment of the article you see it, word for word, in several other places. The more recent date comes from the magazine article I already mentioned.

Recipe error
The recipe given in this article was taken from one of several other websites, and all copies have the same error. The previous version called for 2 tb of cornstarch, as opposed to the correct 1/2 c. The error has been corrected; if you tried this recipe before and it didn't work, this is probably the reason.

Also, the cooking time is off by as much as twenty minutes. The Lokum needs to cook to about 245-250°F (118-121°C; "Firm Ball" stage) before it is allowed to cool. Overcooking it will make it hard, and undercooking it will make it runny.

Finally, the original recipe left out a number of variations for flavoring. "True" Lokum is indeed flavored with rosewater, but several other flavors (listed in the recipe) may be used.

June 1

 * Support Common name. Primary topic disambiguation. Jooler 20:44, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Turkish Delight often refers to the beverage Salep, as well as other uses. Jonathunder 04:19, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)
 * That actually appears to be an error. See the talk page for Talk:Turkish Delight Quoting the Salep article "The beverage salep is sometimes referred to as Turkish Delight, though that name is also used for lokum. As Turkish Delight, salep is mentioned in the Chronicles of Narnia series by C.S. Lewis when Edmund Pevensie requests some of the hot beverage from the White Witch in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe." - "I think in the The Chonicles of Narnia the Turkish Delight refers to Lokum, because Edmund gets a hot beverage and Turkish Delight". (anon) - Jooler 06:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. Obviously, if the comment to Jonathunder has convinced him that the move is right, then it can be moved. As it stands there is no consensus for the move. violet/riga (t) 19:22, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, I assume it's too late to weigh in, but I would be for moving it as well. --Iustinus 28 June 2005 06:44 (UTC)


 * Raise the issue on requested moves again. Jooler 28 June 2005 06:52 (UTC)


 * OK, I've now done so, and am starting a new section. --Iustinus 28 June 2005 07:53 (UTC)

June 28

 * Support. The candy is called "Turkish delight" in English, and while that expression has other meanings, they are comparatively rare. Move this article to Turkish delight with or a disambiguating list at the top. --Iustinus 28 June 2005 07:52 (UTC)


 * Support. As pointed out above, the references to Turkish Delight meaning some kind of drink appear to be erroneous, unless anyone can confirm this. Jooler 28 June 2005 18:24 (UTC)


 * Support. If you trawl the web it's not hard to find factoids about "Turkish Delight" sometimes referring to the beverage. However, they typically reference Lewis. I've yet to find anyone actually using "Turkish Delight" to mean salep-the-beverage. To date no one's presented any evidence (Lewis aside) that this is ever done. Possibly confusing the issue is that I believe that salep-the-flour can actually be the source of the starch for lokum. -TM


 * Support, per above. --Jpbrenna 1 July 2005 06:22 (UTC)


 * Support -- Turkish delight is the English name (and Lewis is talking about the candy as well, for what it's worth--I'm surprised so many readers get confused about this--see the talk on the current Turkish delight disambigulation for quotes.). --Marlow4 6 July 2005 00:16 (UTC)

Politics
I am so sick of this page being a front in the cultural battle between the Greeks and the Turks. It's just candy, people. But I guess there's nothing we can really do about it :( --Iustinus 3 July 2005 05:46 (UTC)


 * I guess this comment is tongue-in-cheek? No battle exists. Jonathunder raised the only objection, which seems to have nothing supporting it. It's been a month without a peep from him/her. Why not just move it? -TM


 * No, it was serious, but wasn't directly related to the name-change vote. A recent edit was made for the sole purpose of moving "Greek" to the end, and "Turkish" to the begining. Back when this WAS at Turkish delight someone changed it to Greek delight. Let alone all the edits to switch back and forth between Greek and Turkish as the language that originated this word. Or the fool who changed the interwiki link lucumium to lucumi apparently just to make it closer to the Modern Greek form. And so on and so on ad infinitum.
 * We may be opening a can of worms by moving this back to the proper title. ;) --Iustinus 6 July 2005 09:12 (UTC)
 * In Greece, it is sold as "Greek Delight," just as the Greek Key is not called that in Turkey. Both the Greeks and the Turks can feel very strongly on the issue, however, it is most commonly known as Turkish in English, and I see no need to advance the cause of Turkish linguistic nationalism. Pelegius 01:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It's Greek linguistic nationalism,you Greek.--85.97.76.234 16:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed it is sold in Greece as 'Greek Delight' or lokum. Actually I think it's English language nationalism to presume something has the same name all over the world... As the article relates how the sweet was popular with the Turks so it might also mention that the Turks were popular with us (English speakers) - hence the name we have for this sweet today.  Btw could it be said that it was a brand name to begin with? Hakluyt bean 13:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Which Cuisines
As it currently stands, the article says:
 * Though enjoyed worldwide, lokum is especially familiar in Turkish, Albanian, Bosnian, Bulgarian, Greek, Cypriot and Romanian cuisines.

Someone just added Bosnian. The list just keeps on growing, and I suspect (given the politics of that area) it will continue to do so. Would I be an ignorant American if I suggested that we simplify this to Greek, Turkish and "Balkan" cuisine? I suppose it might just annoy even more people. But I'd rather not have this article turn into a list of countries in the region where Turkish Delight is frequently eaten. --Iustinus 17:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * -I just happened upon the article and I noticed that Greece is no longer mentioned as one of the countries especially associated with Turkish Delight, so I put it back in. I considered simplifying the sentence by deleting Turkey and just saying "Mediterranean countries", but it didn't seem fair not to mention Turkey by name, seeing as that's the country of origin. I don't want to cause (or continue) a Turkey vs. Greece argument, but to not mention Greece at all is preposterous. -Alex
 * I agree. My intention wasn't for Greece to be removed, but to simplify the rest of the list. I realize Greece is, by some definitions, a Balkan country, but I think it does merit separate mention. Turkey cannot and should not be removed. In fact, my vote woudl be for no one to edit this list at all, unless they have a really good reason ;) --Iustinus 08:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's say it Ottoman Cuisine

Narnia
Can someone tell me why the tiny mention of The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe is so controvercial that everyone keeps deleting or rewriting it? --Iustinus 08:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm getting sick of this phenomenon. I'm inclined to keep the "Popular Culture" section, but not strongly so. However, I don't want it to keep getting deleted and then reinserted. So I've reinserted it myself, with a note saying not to delete the section unilaterally. If you want to erase that section, please bring it up on this page first, and see what other people think! --Iustinus 07:35, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Aplets & Cotlets
Someone, possibly with commercial intent, added a reference (and link) to Liberty Orchards. I have changed the phrasing slightly, but kept it because they do seem (to me at least) to be a noteworthy company. Perhaps someone could further improve the phrasing though, so that it's less of a commercial. --Iustinus 18:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Historical thickener?
I have seen recipes for this confection using pectin, cornstarch, and gelatin. None of these seem like the likely original thickening agents in the candies, at least not in their modern, boxed forms. Does anyone know what was used historically? The connection with rose flavoring suggests that perhaps the original may have been a rose hip jelly (pectin-based) that was flavored with rose water, but this is just a guess.

On second thought, the connection with salep (as mentioned in discussion above) suggests that the salep (also a source of starch-like polysaccharides) may have been the original thickener.

On third thought, GP4Kids states that the original was a cooked mixture of honey (of course, no processed sugar) citrus (a source of pectin) and rose water...Mschmidt62 02:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

According to hungrymonster.com Turkish Delight (Lokum) "was prepared in ancient Turkey by combining dates, honey, roses and jasmine and then it was bound together with gum arabic. Sometimes nuts are added into the mixture. " The "thickener" or binder was, then, gum arabic. MCushman 04:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Revert
I reverted this change Nonetheless, since lokum became popular Greeks started selling it under the name of Greek lokum so that a Greek made-up story of lokum should be expected. It was pov and was unsourced.-- Dakota 07:17, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Turkish Delight
As a food expert, I cannot help but laugh at the comments which have been written. Guys chill out, this isn't a place for Nationaist chauvanist attitudes, its FOOD, its meant to bring understanding and show similarities, what on earth are you doing.Lets be honest, Turkish Delight is called Turkish Delight because it was invented by a Turk for the Ottoman Turks Sultan who requested a soft sweet be made for him, as the legend says. Turkish Delight as we know it hence, was created by this guy so I don't see the issue or crisis in calling it by this name, its just a historical fact, if a Greek had invented it, then we would have called in Greek Delight. Here is it from the original creater, this family still produces authentic Turkish Delight, actually it is the best in the world, the original and a Food connoisseur's haven, it MUST be respected in the article.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE CHANGE THAT IMAGE, THE ONE WITH THE COLOURFULL COLOURS, ITS THAT KIND OF CHEAP TAT THAT PEOPLE MISTAKE FOR THE AUTHENTIC BEAUTY THAT IS TURKISH DELIGHT.

The Shop http://www.hacibekir.com.tr/yenidukkan.jpg (this link is broken) In the 18th century, after refined sugar became available in Turkey, Haci Bekir was the first confectioner to use sugar and cornstarch instead of grape molasses and flour, respectively, and its superlative taste and texture were obtained(but it is F!@#ing expensive for us poor middle--class turks - signed:A Turk). Lokum and akide (Turkish hard candy) became so famous that the Sultan appointed Haci Bekir "chief confectioner" to the Ottoman Court. In the 19th century a British traveler purchased a case of the confection known to Turks as "rahat lokum", or simply lokum, from Haci Bekir. He took it back to London where he called it Turkish Delight. Since then in English speaking countries and Europe it has been known as Turkish Delight, and its name was entered to World Confectionery literature. The original name lokum derives from the Arabic "rahat - ul hulkum" (literally soothing to the throat). The pronunciation was gradually corrupted in Turkish to "lat - i lokum" and finally just "lokum". Besides plain lokum it is also made containing hazelnuts, walnuts, almonds, pistachio nuts, clotted cream and dessicated coconuts. In addition, varieties of lokum flavored with strawberry, lemon, orange, mint, vanilla and rose petals are also available. For those who enjoy harder texture slightly overcooked lokum is a favourite. For over two hundred years words Haci Bekir and lokum have been used synonymously. Master Bekir Affandi came to Istanbul from Kastamonu in Anatolia, and opened his small shop at Bahcekapi in 1777 where he hand - made hard and soft candies.

"Arabesque" is a book published in London. In the chapter titled "Old Stamboul" it gives information about confectioner Bekir Affandi, his small shop and how he made and sold candies. It says "Anyone who has any pretensions to a knowledge of the Middle East should know Haci Bekir". Bekir Affandi became Haci Bekir after he went to Mecca on pilgramage. Soon after Haci Bekir began making candies fame of his products reached the Sultan, and he appointed him "Chief Confectioner" to the Ottoman Court. He was a master who kept up with new developments. When beet sugar and starch became available he was the first one to use them instead of grape molasses for sweetener and flour, respectively. Hard candy (akide) and Turkish Delight (Lokum) had long been known in Istanbul, but cleanliness of his shop and his recipes made his products outstanding and much sought after. A painting of Haci Bekir was made by Maltese artist Amedeo Preziosi who came to Istanbul in mid-nineteenth century, and is famous for his paintings of Istanbul. The original of the painting hangs in the Louvre Museum in Paris. A lithographic copy of it is at Topkapi Museum in Istanbul. After Haci Bekir passed away his son, Muhiddin, took over the shop and the title Chief Confectioner to the Palace. During his time the company was awarded a silver medal in Vienna (1873), another silver medal in Cologne (1888) and gold medals in Brussels (1897) and Paris (1906) fairs for excellent product quality. Under management of Ali, Muhiddin's son, the company prospered. In addition to several shops in Istanbul one was opened in Cairo and another in Alexandria, Egypt. In 1911 he was appointed confectioner to royal palace by his highness the Khedive of Egypt. Company's products were successfully exhibited and sold in New York Fair in 1939. Ali died in 1974. The company named after three generations; Ali Muhiddin Haci Bekir, is now run by the fourth and fifth generations together. Its production facilities and stores are all in Istanbul now. It has a thriving export business around the World. Bekir Affandi opened his confectionery shop in Istanbul at Bahcekapi near Galata Bridge over Golden Horn. In the same busy, commercial district were the train station connecting the city to Europe, fish market, Egyptian market (Misir Carsisi) and textile center. High level government offices, including that of prime minister's, were located at Bab-i Ali section of town, which was nearby. The original one - room shop of Bekir Affandi (later called confectioner Haci Bekir) began production in 1777. At the back of the shop stood a fireplace where lokum (Turkish Delight) was made. The shop was soon enlarged to 33 m2. Another shop next door was also added to it which brought its size to 88 m2. Since 1777 it has been serving as a confectionery shop under management of five generations of Haci Bekir family.

The shop was restored by Dogan Sahin, son - in - law of Ali Muhiddin Haci Beki, in 1989 to reflect its original features. Above the shop there are two storeys. Walls are plastered; wood frames are used; roof is covered with clay tiles. Parapets are old style Maltese stone. At the entrance there are two marble columns with brass collars. Front display windows are crossed above with marble blocks laid on two forged steel beams which are supported on cast iron columns in the middle. During restoration arched cooking section at the rear and chimney on the roof are kept as they were in the period of confectioner Haci Bekir. Also work benches, shelves, flower patterned shutters on ceiling are authentic. In the oldest part of the shop Preziosi's "Confectioner" painting could be visualized in three dimensions. Floor of the shop is marble. Original wood ceiling beams with planks and display window girders give a pretty good idea about construction methods in hundred year intervals. We are indebted to New York Times reporter Miss Marvine Howe for suggesting Dogan Sahin during her interview with him in 1983 renovation of the shop as a living museum. Thanks are also due Professor Mehmet Cubuk and his assistants at Mimar Sinan University for their help in implementing the project, and to members of the Committee for Protecting Cultural and Natural Assets for their encouragement http://www.hacibekir.com.tr/mainuk.html Here is the Legend: The story of the creation of Turkish Delight (lokum) begins in the late 1700s, when Ali Muhiddin Haci Bekir, confectioner to the imperial courrt in Istanbul, listens to the sultan rant: "Hard candy! I'm tired of hard candy!" the sultan growled as he cracked a tooth on yet another sourball. "I demand soft candy!" Ali Muhiddin Haci Bekir had come to the imperial capital of Istanbul from the Anatolian mountain town of Kastamonu in the late 1700s to hear his emperor's plea. His mountain-man blood rose! His face turned grim with conviction! He set his jaw with determination! He was going to take bold and decisive action! He marched into his confectioner's kitchen and thought up a recipe: he mixed water, sugar, corn starch, cream of tartar and rosewater, cooked it up, poured the mixture into a flat pan slicked with almond oil, and let it cool. Then he sprinkled it with powdered sugar, cut it into bite-sized chunks and...his hand trembling, his eyes bright with anticipation, his mind fraught with trepidation, his lips quivering to receive the morsel...he bit! What? No crack of candy crunched by his mighty alpine jaws? No shower of sugary splinters scattering through his oral cavity? Why, this new confection was soft and easy to chew, a pleasure, a treat for both palate and teeth! It was... it was...a comfortable morsel! Rahat lokum ("comfortable morsel"), nowadays called simply lokum, or Turkish Delight, was an instant hit, especially at the palace. Ali Muhiddin became a celebrity overnight as palace bigwhigs (or, more usually, their lackeys and gofers) traipsed down the hill from Topkapi Palace to Eminönü on the Golden Horn to buy boxes of Comfortable Morsels to thrill the jaded palates of Ottoman potentates. You can still buy lokum at Ali Muhiddin's shop in Eminönü today, almost 250 years since the intrepid confectioner saved his sultan from sourballs. It's on Hamidiye Caddesi at the corner of Seyhülislam Hayri Efendi Caddesi, two blocks east of the Yeni Cami (New Mosque). Over the centuries Ali Muhiddin's descendants (the shop is still owned by the family) fiddled with the recipe, adding good things like walnuts, pistachios, oranges, almonds, clotted cream, and of course chocolate. (The plain rosewater original is still a favorite, however.) Lokum (Turkish Delight) is now made and sold in thousands of shops throughout Turkey, and enjoyed with Turkish tea or coffee, or just by itself. johnstevens5 —Preceding unsigned comment added by johnstevens5 (talk • contribs)

pics
There is not really a good reason to have to use fair use pics when we have perfectly acceptable GFDL ones. The story above is a nice legend, however, until it is referenced and proven, having pictures with captions claiming to to be the one and only inventor is POV. Seriously, even the text above states it is a legend. We can't favor that company because they claim to be the inventors. See WP:VERIFY. GFDL pics are much less of a legal issue, and are preferred. Please discuss here before making wholesale reversions. psch e  mp  |  talk  00:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi, the reality is, what is called "Turkish Delight" was invented by Haci Bekir, this is not a Sweet which can be easily created or perfected, its the specialist work of sweet makers. Haci Bekir is the founder of this sweet, as he was a Turk and created it for the Sultan obviously its Turkish Delight. The authentic sweet is really delicious, Haci Bekir's sweets are renownd as they do not burn the throat, they are smooth and should not dry or irritate the throat, it should be an unforgetable experience. Believe me, one try of this stuff and you'll never eat the replica's ever, ever again. This is why I put these images in. The image on the page is not "Turkish Delight" it is Majun, there are many types of Majun, a famous type being "Mesir Majunu", these are easy mistakes to make however, there is a huge differenct between these sweets. Also the recipe is a secret kept by the family who still makes this speciality in Istanbul. johnstevens5 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.49.247 (talk • contribs)
 * Right. and this article is not about that particular company, it is about what most people eat under the name TD. Since everyone in the world is not making to journey to Istanbul to buy that one type of TD, nor will they ever, we need to keep the article more general. Thanks for your efforts. psch  e  mp  |  talk  23:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I uploaded what I think is a better image to commons.wikipedia.org (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Turkish_Delight.jpg) but this page uses the ugly image with the same name on en.wikipedia.org by default when I try to include it. Anyone know a way around this other than changing its name at commons? 70.71.155.24 00:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

A Last Note
The next Greek who emails me a letter with CAPSLOCK ON about "Greek Delight" will get a 100% free,natural prostate examination by the tip of my boot.--85.97.76.234 16:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Romanian
Well i don't see you using the talk page either. At any rate, why is the slang term relevent if there is no explanation of the connection? As you have it, its just a random fact, a coincidence that they are the same term. Unless you can put a cited reason for the relevence, it shouldn't be there. psch e  mp  |  talk  20:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, didn't an earlier version of this article suggest that it was indicative of the popularity of Turkish Delight that it survived despite that unappetizing name? --Iustinus 04:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * intesting, theory, but no, not earlier version said that. psch  e  mp  |  talk  14:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm not finding it either, but I could have sworn. I wonder where I got that idea then.
 * BTW, was it you who added that bit in the first place? --Iustinus 17:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes as that's what all the Romanians I know tell me, but as it isn't sourced or cited, it really should have never been inserted. psch  e  mp  |  talk  18:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Mastic
I was under the impression that Mastic was used in Turkish Delight (backed up by the fact that the Mastic article even mentions its use in Turkish Delight). However, this article does not mention its use… Shouldn't we include it? –Wulf 05:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I second this, not from any knowledge - got here from the mastic article - but if anyone knows more please add reference if appropriate. Thanks -Fitzhugh 10:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mastic is used just as a flavour in Turkish Delight. (It's not a special ingredient or something). A plain Turkish delight is without mastic, pistachos, rose, (or rose water) or nuts. (There would be few drops of lemon juice in it only.)


 * Turkish Delight with Mastic is called as "Sakızlı Lokum" in Turkish.