Talk:Turks in Germany/Archive 2

Improvements
I am trying to improve this article (hopefully to a GA) please feel free to discuss how we can improve this article further. Thetruthonly (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I think we should add some information about popular Turkish culture in Germany and the mixture of German and Turkish culture, e.g. German Turkish cinema (-> Fatih Akın), media coverage in Turkish language, Döner Kebap, and so on. Plus, Turkish groups in Germany, e.g. ATIF, Millî Görüş, etc. Maybe even inform about the "culture clash" problems and stereotyping. - anonymous 10 September 2009

Population
I will be replacing the 2,000,000 from the info box to 2,800,000 as the references state. My reasons for this are as follows:


 * A) we should not be manipulating figures as it conflicting with NPOV
 * B) the information about the Kurdish population is written in the demographics segment anyway
 * C) I have found references which state that the Kurdish population is 1/4 of the Turkish population (from Turkey only). Thus the reference being used right now is debatable and open to question as it is only one reference.
 * D) Kurds have obviously migrated from Turkey; however, a large proportion has also come from Iraq, Syria etc thus it is not reasonable to state that their whole population fits within Turks in Germany.
 * E) furthermore, the figures obviously do not even include Turkish Cypriots, Bulgarian Turks or Macedonian Turks who all have a presence in Germany. Hence, in hindsight the Turkish population would still be higher even if the Kurdish population was subtracted

I will not do this now. As I prefer to hear what other users think so that there is no edit wars which is usually the case when it comes to the population figures on wikipedia... Thetruthonly (talk) 14:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not a good idea, for various reasons.
 * The method used for calculating the 2,000,000 figure, that of subtracting a percentage from a larger figure, is also used to compute other population figures (e.g., the figure for Turkey in Turkish people, which is 76.8M less 20%, or 61.4M.) So, if it were illegitimate, we would also have to delete many other figures from Wikipedia.
 * Although there are Kurdish immigrants to Germany from other countries than Turkey, we have figures on the number of Kurds specifically of Turkish origin (e.g., the Rabasa reference you mention, or : "Between 500,000 and 600,000 Kurds from Turkey live in Germany".) So, I don't think this is a concern.
 * Obviously, immigrant Turks from Bulgaria, Cyprus, etc., should also be included, but we need population figures on them.  It is speculation to say that they would make up the deficit left by subtracting Kurds of Turkish origin in Germany.
 * It is true that sources on the number of Kurds of Turkish origin vary, but we are free to present a range of figures in the infobox to account for this.
 * Most importantly, the 2.8 million figure is not accurate as it is, so it should not be presented to our readers.
 * Spacepotato (talk) 23:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your point, but almost every reference states that Kurds in Turkey account for 20% thus I have no doubts about that figure. However, there is no fixed figure for the percentage of Kurds in Germany who are from Turkey. Some 80-90% of them come from Turkey and most academic sources put the figure at 350,000-400,000 originating from Turkey (which sounds pretty realistic to me). So far, RAND is the only reference which states that 1/3 are Kurds, and thus is not reliable enough since I have found tens of references and not even one state that they account for 1/3 of the population.


 * Regarding Turks from Bulgaria and so on, I have found some figures regarding their populations however I find them just as unreliable as RAND! Therefore, I did not want to add these into the article. Unless more references can be found stating that 1/3 of Turks in Germany are actually Kurds, I will have to remove this; because I am genuinely trying to improve this article. Or, the 1/3 statement could be added to the demographics section as an estimate but not as a fact in the info box.


 * Furthermore, you say that ‘the 2.8 million figure is not accurate as it is’ but even if the whole Kurdish population came from Turkey, the figure would not account to 800,000 people, since there is an estimated 500,000 or so Kurds in Germany. Hence, that is probably even more absurd. Thus, I do not see how a 2.8 million figure can be downgraded to a mere 2 million since most references point out that they account to 1/4-1/5 of the population. So the 2,000,000 figure is just not realistic at all. And I for one do not believe that this should be presented to our readers either. Thetruthonly (talk) 11:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Spacepotato, sorry I just realised that you added a reference for me to look at. First of all, this is not an ACADEMIC reference. I want to improve this article (hopefully to a GA) and therefore for me web citations like this are just not acceptable. However, even if the Kurdish population from Turkey was 600,000, the totally Turks in Germany would still be 2.2 million not 2 million. Furthermore, even if the population is 600,000 from Turkey, this still would not support the claim that 1/3 of the Turkish population in Germany is Kurds. Do you understand my point? Thetruthonly (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that estimates for the number of Kurds from Turkey in Germany vary widely. I have presented a number of sources, including those from the article, the source I mentioned above, and one additional reference (from the Council of Europe), in a table above.
 * The Migration News source is fifteen years old, so it is not current and I think it should not be used.
 * Taking there to be 2.8 million persons of Turkish origin currently in Germany, 1/5 of the Turkish origin population is 560,000, and 1/4 of the Turkish origin population is 700,000. Except for Migration News, Cook 2001, and Rabasa et al. 2004, then, all sources agree that there are between 450,000 and 700,000 Kurds of Turkish origin currently in Germany.
 * Therefore, I agree with your point about the Rabasa et al. source. Their figure for the Kurdish population from Turkey appears too high.  On the other hand, the figure of 350,000 from Cook 2001 currently used in the article appears too low as no other source gives a figure this low.  It's also not consistent with the statement in the article that between 1/4 and 1/5 of Germans of Turkish national origin are ethnic Kurds.
 * The 2,000,000 figure only has one significant figure, so it represents a population somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 million, and it appears accurate to this extent (see point 6.) It is not meant to be the two-significant-figure number of 2.0 million, which would represent a population between 1.95 and 2.05 million.
 * Given the variability of the estimates for the number of Kurds from Turkey in Germany, and the summary of the sources in point 3 above, I would suggest using "between 2.1 and 2.35 million" for the population figure in the infobox.
 * Spacepotato (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Re your wish to advance this article to a GA, I have advanced a number of articles to GA, and I don't think the presence of a journalistic, non-academic source would prevent this article from reaching GA status. However, my points above would not be affected if it were omitted. Spacepotato (talk) 23:38, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

References:


 * As you can see, I decided to look for even additional academic extracts to support my view on this matter. The predicament with the majority of journalistic articles is that they assume that the whole Kurdish population comes from Turkey. Indeed a large proportion do however not all and this is why I want to avoid using references which do not state so.


 * Since we both agree that the 1/3 reference by Rand is not a reasonable illustration of the population I will remove it from the article now (however I will leave the 2,000,000 figure till we are both 100% happy with our conclusions).


 * Regarding Migration News, although the reference is from 1994, I don’t think it makes it any less of a dependable estimate because Turkish migration to Germany was pretty steady by that time. In fact, most were becoming German citizens and the population seemed much more stable compared to the 1970s-80s. However, you make a level-headed point that it is old (and I do agree)- that is why I added another reference there (Jerome & Kimmel, 2001).


 * I would not agree that there is 700,000 Kurds in Germany. Mainly because I have only found one academic reference stating this and two-three articles. Moreover, if their population really was this high, they probably would not be classified in every article about Turkish people. What I mean by this is that if they really were close to 1 million, I’m sure most articles would state something along the lines of ‘2.8 million Turks live in Germany… 1 million of which are Kurds…’


 * The reference by Cook maybe low but this is because the figure is only of the population of Kurds from Turkey, I will however add other references next to it as well.


 * Finally, apart from the Council of Europe I do not generally see any other references which give Kurds such high estimates. Nonetheless, I believe that the Kurdish population from Turkey is no more than 500,000. However, I do not want to state what we should change the info box figure to yet as I am still researching around this subject. Thetruthonly (talk) 11:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Re your remarks above: (a) The Ember et al. 2004 reference (#2 in your list) does not state that there are 500,000 Kurds from Turkey in Germany. Rather, it says that there are in excess of 500,000.  See the quote above.  (b) Also, although the Faist 2000 reference mentions Kurds from Iraq, etc., in Germany, the 500,000 figure is exclusively for Kurds from Turkey, as stated in the quote.  So, the 500,000 figure is correct as it is.
 * I have provided another reference above (Østergaard-Nielsen 2003: between 450,000 and 630,000 Kurds from Turkey in Germany.)
 * Although Diasporas (your #1 above) bears a publication date of 2008, it is a translation of an earlier work in French, Les diasporas (Stéphane Dufoix, Presses universitaires de France, 2003, ISBN 2130539297.)
 * Therefore, the Council of Europe reference is the most recent non-journalistic reference. All other references of this kind date from 2004 and before and so the population will have increased since then.
 * Since the Cook 2001 reference gives an unrepresentatively low figure, I will add the Council of Europe reference to the article. In this way we can give a range which will cover the various estimates found.
 * Likewise, I will add this reference to the infobox, as otherwise the 2,000,000 figure there is without support.
 * Spacepotato (talk) 00:02, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ember et al. 2004- though it says more than 500,000 this does not mean lets just add in another 100,000… this could mean just about any number under 600,000 and it does nonetheless specifically just state 500,000.
 * Dufoix et al (2008) - even if it is a translation or a republication it wouldn’t make a difference. The point in republications and reprints is to update information…
 * Østergaard-Nielsen (2003) is actually what I was refering to when I said: I would not agree that there is 700,000 Kurds in Germany. Mainly because I have only found one academic reference stating this...
 * For me the Council of Europe is not reliable enough because the estimated 700,000 to 800,000 Kurds is way too high and seems pro-Kurdish just like Rabasa et al. especially since many figures have the total Kurdish population at 600,000. And if there really was 800,000 Kurds living in Germany they would not be seen as part of the Turkish community.
 * I prefer to support my arguments with academic books and journals but even the Kurdish Institute puts the Kurdish population at an estimated 500,000-600,000 stating that 85% are from Turkey which would equal to some 425,000-510,000
 * Basically, for me to be persuaded on a certain figure, the references we use must state how many Kurds actually come from Turkey rather than a reference which just states a Kurdish population. I find 500,000 to probably be the most realistic estimate for the highest number of Kurds (and 425,000 for the lowest estimate) who has origins from Turkey.
 * Regarding Turks from other countries, I have found it quite difficult to find their population but I assume it is not over 100,000 Thetruthonly (talk) 15:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the statement that, if there were a large number of Kurds living in Germany, they would not be seen as part of the Turkish community, is speculative. We have no evidence for or against this.
 * Re your point 6 above, the figures in the third columns of the tables above are all for Kurds of Turkish origin and not of the entire Kurdish population. So, I see no issue here.
 * In general, as one would expect, the estimates are increasing with time, and many of the low figures are quite old. So, as regards the current population, I find the higher figures more plausible and I would expect the population of Kurds of Turkish origin to be over 500,000 and possibly as high as or higher than 600,000.
 * In addition, the statement that 1/5 to 1/4 of the Turkish origin population are Kurds suggests a higher figure as 1/5 of 2.8 million is already 560,000 and 1/4 is 700,000.
 * Spacepotato (talk) 00:49, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * We also have no evidence of how much the Kurdish population is increasing (or decreasing) in Germany yet you seem to speculate that it is increasing without a great deal of evidence.


 * Ultimately, if the Kurdish population really was reaching 1 million then it is quite plausible that they would not be assimilated into every Turkish literature without being identified as such because it would make them the second or third largest group in Germany...


 * Unfortunately I will have to insist that we remove the Council of Europe citation for a number of reasons:
 * A) It is a political organisation not an academia and thus could have any opinionated agenda and is in fact the only reference which states such a high figure.
 * B) You have not been able to confirm to me any additional references stating a figure of 700,000-800,000 Kurds in Germany (except for Østergaard-Nielsen, 2003- but that states from 500,000 to 700,000 not 700,000-800,000) thus you are contradicting yourself.
 * C) Basically, we cannot just have one reference stating such a figure without any additional support for such an argument…this is exactly what I was trying to explain to you when you was insisting on us using the RAND report.


 * I just want to make it clear that my intention is to have a realistic figure. If I was interested in increasing the Turkish population and decreasing the Kurdish population in this article I would have done so by now. In order for me to be happy with this discussion I want to see consistent references not an argument which contradicts itself.Thetruthonly (talk) 11:22, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I see no justification for removing the Council of Europe reference. Contrary to the assertion that it is not in accordance with other references, Østergaard-Nielsen 2003 above gives a figure of from 450,000 to 630,000 Kurds of Turkish origin, which is wholly comparable with the Council of Europe figure of from 490,000 to 640,000. Also, the AP news story I mentioned above gives a figure of from 500,000 to 600,000.
 * Since, as you have pointed out earlier, estimates vary, we should present the range of estimates found in the literature. Otherwise, we are endorsing a particular point of view, which is against Wikipedia policy.
 * Also, how do you reconcile the view that there are fewer than 500,000 Kurds of Turkish origin in Germany with the assertion that they make up 1/5 or more of the Turkish-origin population? Obviously, 1/5 of 2.8 million is 560,000, which is in excess of 500,000.
 * Spacepotato (talk) 00:16, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Spacepotato, please excuse my late reply I have been a little busy this week.


 * It is unreasonable to try and place a different figure using the estimated 2.8 million number for a number of reasons:
 * A) none of the articles which state the 2.8 million figure states that this includes Kurds
 * B) the fact that there is an estimated 4 million Turks in Germany (including descendants) would according to your formula place the Kurdish population at 800,000 to 1,000,000 which is an extremely ludicrous result that not even the Council of Europe article supports.
 * C) the large majority of Kurds came to Germany as asylum seekers during the 1980s and therefore their demographic structure is likely to be different.
 * D) all the citations clearly state Turkish nationals… this therefore means that Kurds make up one-fourth to one-fifth of Turkish nationals not people of Turkish decent:


 * Friedmann (2002: 45) states: 'of the 1.8 million Turkish citizens in Germany, fully one quarter are ethnic Kurds'.
 * Total=450,000


 * Faist (2000: 89) states: 'About one-fourth or 500,000 of the close to two million Turkish immigrants living in Germany in the mid-1990s are probably of Kurdish descent'.
 * Total=500,000 (maximum as it says close to two million…)


 * Jerome & Kimmel (2001: 290) states: 'By the 1990s, Germany has a population of just under 2 million Turks…one in five Turks in Germany is actually a Kurd'.
 * Total=400,000 (I calculated this as 2 million)


 * Migration News (1994) states: 'Kurds are one-fifth of the two million Turks in Germany, and an estimated one percent of the 400,000 Kurds in Germany are members of the PKK…’
 * Total=400,000


 * Furthermore, according to Statistisches Bundesamt Deutschland, in 2007 there were 1,713,551 Turkish citizens in Germany. Thus the estimated Kurdish population who are Turkish nationals would be 428,387 (one fourth) to 342,710 (one-fifth).


 * If you cannot find any other academic references then we will have to remove the Council of Europe citation. For me, the pravda article is no where near reliable and therefore is not sufficient enough to support the Council of Europe article. The only way we will be able to resolve this debate is if we are both happy- not just you- and at the moment I am not satisfied with that reference. Apologies again for my late reply. Thetruthonly (talk) 14:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The over 4 million figure for persons "of Turkish origin" in Germany is found in just one source (p. 55, Zouboulis 2003). Since it's not in accordance with other figures, it's not surprising that computations based on it are also not in accordance with other figures.  In any case, saying that the result is "extremely ludicrous" is no argument.
 * Although the news article I cited earlier can be found on the Pravda website, it does not originate with Pravda (something I also would find insufficiently reliable.) It is an AP article and was also published in the International Herald Tribune during November 2007.
 * The 2.8 million figure comes from the German microcensus and includes all persons with a so-called "migration background" of Turkey. See this report: Ungenutzte Potenziale: Zur Lage der Integration in Deutschland, especially pp. 18, 19, 26, and 27.  So, it does include Kurds from Turkey, and this fact is stated on p. 18 of the report.
 * The microcensus figure for persons with a migration background of Turkey differs from the figure of Turkish citizens in Germany in two ways: (a) it includes immigrants who have become naturalized German citizens and (b) it includes some German citizens who are the children of immigrants. (See Ungenutzte Potenziale, p. 91).  Since the children of Kurds will also be Kurds, and since likewise naturalization does not change one's ethnicity, if 1/5 to 1/4 of the Turkish citizens in Germany are Kurds, we should expect that 1/5 to 1/4 of the persons with a migration background from Turkey are likewise Kurds.  This again suggests a figure in excess of 560,000.
 * Spacepotato (talk) 02:33, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * 1. Yes! There is only ONE reference for the 4 million figure that is why it is in the demographics section and not in the info box! Just as it should be with the Council of Europe yet you insist that your ONE reference is reliable enough to not need additional backing… and it is for this reason why we have to remove this reference.


 * 2. The Pravda article states that its source is AP but I haven’t been able to find any other evidence to suggest so (as I have looked at AP news and couldn’t find anything to suggest that Pravda was citing AP). I also just visited the International Herald Tribune and couldn’t find the article you are talking about. If you can find it I would very much appreciate it.


 * 3. According to Zur Lage der Integration in Deutschland report; 'Einen kleinen Teil machen außerdem die kurdischen Asylbewerber türkischer Herkunft aus...' which supports my argument that many Kurds came as asylum seekers rather than guest workers. This means that Kurdish asylum seekers of all ages would have migrated to Germany; whereas guest workers were mainly young people. Hence the reason why I said before that the Kurdish demographics is likely to be different from the Turkish. Furthermore, asylum seekers have not been migrating to Germany in large numbers during the 1960s, the majority are more recent immigrants and therefore are unlikely to have family who are now third generation born.


 * Furthermore, the report states nothing about Kurdish people accounting to one fourth to one fifth of the 2.8 million. It only states that it includes people with a Turkish migrant background. But still does not confirm anything that the Council of Europe has suggested. And page 26-27 also would not confirm anything because it does not specify the populations ethnicity.

A. Immigrants who are not German citizens. B. Immigrants who have become naturalized German citizens. C. Persons born in Germany who are not German citizens. D. Persons born in Germany who have become naturalized German citizens. E. Persons born in Germany who are German by birth, either because one parent is a naturalized German citizen, or because the recent change in the nationality law grants them jus soli citizenship.
 * 4. Finally, it is no secret that many Kurds do not apply for German citizenship in order to secure their voting rights in Turkey… nonetheless, Kurds born in Germany have the right to both Turkish and German citizenship until they come of age to decide which citizenship they will give up, for this reason they are likely to be included in the Turkish national population anyway. Therefore, we have no information about Kurds born in Germany. I do not think it is right to keep assuming that one fourth to one fifth are Turkish citizens, one fourth to one fifth are naturalized citizens, and that one fourth to one fifth are born in Germany. We only know that one fourth to one fifth are Turkish nationals and that is it. And it is for this reason that I do not understand why in the demographics section you wrote that there is 640,000 Kurds who have Turkish citizenship… can you explain this?
 * Thetruthonly (talk) 11:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We have more than one source for the estimate given in the Council of Europe article as Østergaard-Nielsen 2003 gives similar figures (as well as the AP article.) I understand that you have pointed out that the estimates given in these sources of the total number of Kurds differ, but I don't think that's relevant as in this article we are concerned only with Kurds from Turkey and the number of Kurds from Iraq, Syria, etc. in Germany is not in question.  So, I have added the Østergaard-Nielsen 2003 source to the infobox, as well as another source.
 * Re the AP story, when I originally found it it was at this location, on March 28, 2009. Unfortunately, due to web site reorganization it is no longer available here.  However, as of the moment I write this, if you do a google search, the article will appear in the search results at this location.
 * I agree that, due to differing demographics, it's not possible to definitely conclude that 1/4 to 1/5 of the 2.8 million figure are Kurds. My argument there was only suggestive, similar to the second part of your point 4 of June 15.
 * Re the last sentence of your point 4 above, we can classify the persons in question in Germany as follows:

The sentence in question in the article reads: "However, about one-fourth to one-fifth of Germans of Turkish national origin are ethnic Kurds (amounting from 350,000 to 640,000)."

The phrase of Turkish national origin does not suggest a restriction to those with Turkish citizenship (groups A and C.) Rather, it suggests that the figure encompasses all groups, A, B, C, D, and E.  That is why I added the 640,000 figure. If it is desired to restrict to groups A and C then the phrase "Germans of Turkish national origin" should I think be changed to "Turkish citizens in Germany" and the figures should be revised. We would then need another sentence to discuss the number of Kurds in the totality of groups A-E.
 * I think the >4 million figure from Zouboulis 2003 is not plausible as the microcensus figure for persons with a migration background of Turkey should cover most of the groups A-E. In fact it will cover groups A-D and those in group E for which at least one parent is in groups A-D and it is very unlikely that there are 1.2 million or more in the remaining group (those who have German citizenship by birth and whose parents also both have German citizenship by birth.)
 * Spacepotato (talk) 01:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) You stated: I understand that you have pointed out that the estimates given in these sources of the total number of Kurds differ, but I don't think that's relevant…


 * Of course it is relevant… Let me give you an example, say if we only had one reference stating that overall there was 5 million Turks in Germany whilst all other academic sources wrote 2,800,000… any reasonable person would say that the latter is obviously more reliable. Therefore, we need concise referencing, not citations which contradict one another.


 * 2) I could not find what was stated in the Pravda article in that google search or any evidence to suggest that it used AP as its source. Furthermore, none of those sources were exactly academic anyway (e.g. infopig.com).


 * 3) I stick by what I said on 15th June. I believe it to be quite logical. And I can present you with some references if you wish. I have even found academic sources which states that the Kurds make up as little as one tenth of the Turks in Germany.


 * 4) Yes I agree. I will reword that sentence. But I don’t think that they would necessarily be grouped into those 5 categories as you suggest. Every child in Germany finally has the right to citizenship… Furthermore, I do not think that the 2.8 million figure covers the Turks (or Kurds) who have an ethnically German parent. Mainly because it seems as though the German statistics seem to just add the number of Turkish citizens with the number of naturalised citizens.


 * 5) I think Zouboulis (2003) is plausible (due to my argument in the last section of 4)). But I do not see why we need to discuss that, it’s not in the info box anyway. And let’s not forget that overall there has been 5 million Turks who have at one point migrated to Germany (many who obviously left as well)


 * Regarding you last edits:


 * *Migdal (2004) states: Approximately 850,000 Kurds live in Western Europe, about 500,000 in Germany alone with about 85%...coming from Turkey


 * This would equal to 425,000. It does not state 425,000 to 640,000 (as you have suggested in the notes)… I do not see how you can put the two together in the notes section. Furthermore, I find it amusing that this citation states that there is 850,000 Kurds overall in Western Europe whereas the Council of Europe states that figure just for Germany!


 * *The Council of Europe states: Nearly 85% of the Kurdish diaspora in the West comes from Turkey… of this they have estimated that the Kurdish population in Germany is 700,000 to 800,000.


 * This would therefore equal to 595,000 to 680,000. This again does not support the other references and furthermore you wrote in the notes that the highest estimated figure is 640,000 not 680,000. Again contradicting the references…


 * Finally the only reason why I left the 2 million figure alone (in the info box) was so we do not have an edit war not because 2.2.-2.4 million rounds of to 2 million. Thus, I am putting up a dispute template. I cannot allow such repetitive contradictions.


 * Apologies again for my very late reply.Thetruthonly (talk) 15:25, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Population continued...
Please add any additional thoughts on this matter here: Thetruthonly (talk) 13:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've visited this article looking only for one piece of information: how many Turks are there in Germany? Sadly enough, you present only old data, till 1980. What happened after?

Gallery
I have removed the above images (i.e. the current heading named 'gallery'). I think the article would be better if we use some of these images within the article rather than just having a section dedicated to images. Thetruthonly (talk) 14:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Discrimination section disputed?
Is this section really disputed? All the information is clearly referenced and I see no complaints or disputes on this discussion page. Thus, since there does not actually seem to be a dispute, I am going to remove the dispute tag.  Turco  85 ( Talk ) 18:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)