Talk:Turtling (sailing)

History of the DYK nomination
Lest this moment be forgotten I don't want this to go into a Wikipedia Memory Hole. We could learn a lot about what is wrong with this encyclopedia from this exercise. I put this portions from the discussion in quotation marks. The following is all taken from the DYK page:

"Removed article from prep area

"I have removed Turtling (sailing) from prep area 3. The article, promoted at Template:Did you know nominations/Turtling (sailing), is not fit to be on the main page IMO and should get a complete rewrite to be acceptable. At the moment, it is a mixture of a how-to and a soap-box, both unacceptable under WP:NOT.

"We are supposed to present topics neutrally, not in this manner. An article where the body of text starts with "Prevention is the first priority." is a good sign of this, and the problems continue:

"Practice capsize drills are (and should be) part of the training of every dinghy sailor." Should be? Not our business to state. "[...], boats need to be appropriate for foreseeable conditions." "Prevention and delay of turtling in dinghies is the highest priority"

""This should be adopted by US Sailing and other organizations "as doctrine."

"The article is filled with how-to statements, e.g. describing how to right the boat or ship, e.g. "See Hobie 16 which suggests sitting on the rear of one sponson, which will upturn a turtled Hobie." and the whole "Practice and cure" section." Fram (talk) 10:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

"A courtesy notice has been posted on the nominating editor's talk page." — Maile (talk) 12:42, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

"Though I don't share the same concerns as Fram, I have had concerns about this article (which is why I chose not to build an update around it), namely, that I was concerned about possible content crossover with capsizing, an article about a similar phenomenon; also that the hook "joke" didn't work for me. Gatoclass (talk) 13:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

"Well, Gatoclass, I must admit that while I ran the Duplication Detector as a spot check on the sources, it never occurred to me to run it comparing linked articles. Going forward, I probably will. You have a good eye to catch this. And I guess that's why we are all a part of the checks and balances in this process." — Maile (talk) 14:03, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

"The only duplication of the capsizing article is material I put into it after it was put in the turtling article. The "How to" is incidental and integral to the rest of the content. Definition (it's more than just a capsize, it is a capsize on steroids and one that has gone badly), prevention and cure are integral in the sources. This article went from 1,000 bytes to 30,000, so general similarity of subject matter has nothing to do with DYK." 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:19, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

"7&6, this documents your edits to Capsizing edits: 5X Turtling expansion began Nov 15. Permalink to Capsizing edits Nov 18 - Dec 8." — Maile (talk) 15:17, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

"Okay, but quite frankly I find the discussion of both "turtling" and "capsizing" in these two articles to be confusing, and I find myself asking why we need two articles on essentially the same phenomenon anyway. Incidentally, I'm also a little bothered by the definition of "capsizing" to include a ship rolling onto her side, AFAIK "capsize" means a 180 roll while a 90 degree roll of a ship is known as "going on her beam ends". Regardless, it might be useful to get some members of Wikiships to look over these articles before promotion." Gatoclass (talk) 17:03, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

"Gatoclass, I am sorry that you are confused by the crossover in the definitions of capsize and turtling. These differentiations exist in the literature, and are well laid out in the sources in the turtling article. Part of the trouble is that different speakers have different levels of experience and needs. A Naval architect will say it and mean it differently than a journalist or a sailor or an historian or someone off the street. Language and its meaning varies in context, time and place (this is what I do for a living). As someone crafting the turtling article, I only sought to let readers know the distinctions, and point them to sources (including the other relevant articles). As someone who merely wrote a wikipedia article from multiple reliable sources -- John Rousmaniere is truly an expert to whom I would defer -- I am no guarantor of their harmony. I worked with the material I found. "In interpolating the articles I found, I was able to bring to bear my own experiences as a dinghy sailor, sailing instructor and offshore racer. I know my personal experience can't be cited in an article — I didn't do that, but relied on the sources — but my experience tells me the dichotomy and ambiguity are well understood by those who are involved in the activities involved. You can take that for what it is worth.                   "As I already said, this was a 30X expansion (of everything including references, not a new article). If these articles should be combined, there is a forum, time and place to propose that. And with respect, it isn't in the DYK discussion." 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:45, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

""On her beams ends" is a synonym for a knockdown where the deck is perpendicular to the water. Sometimes used synonymously with "capsize". And your point is? In any event, it has never been a synonym for "turtling"."7&6=thirteen (☎) 03:05, 14 December 2013 (UTC) "My wife tells me that in the Girl Scouts "turtling" means this." Drmies (talk) 03:10, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

"I was aware of all those definitions and that page, and made a deliberate choice not to put it in the article." {:>{)> 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:56, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

"Basically, you've taken the quotes and opinions of the cited articles, and accused them of not being "neutral." The article is both balanced and neutral. it is full of pro and con, all based on the sources. You want a "neuter"ed article, not a neutral one. Does anybody else have the balls to question this attempt to deliberately dumb down an article? Or are we all eunuchs here? This is not just a question of courage or bravado here. It is about editorial integrity." 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:59, 14 December 2013 (UTC) Happy editing. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 13:23, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Acknowledgement
One paragraph was inspired (in part) by the text and prior edits of Fastnet race, and 1979 Fastnet race. Some citations were copied and improved therefrom. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 18:24, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Attribution
Added section to Sportsboat copied from Turtling (sailing) which I wrote. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 20:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Page view statistics
I would note for the record that the changes I made in links and associated articles more than doubled the amounts of views that are regularly happening on this page. Page view statistics — Turtling (sailing). Not that anybody else cares. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 15:55, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131203024047/http://offshore.ussailing.org/AssetFactory.aspx?vid=19214 to http://offshore.ussailing.org/AssetFactory.aspx?vid=19214
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131212112314/http://www.sail-world.com/USA/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=86255&SRCID=0&ntid=118&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0 to http://www.sail-world.com/USA/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=86255&SRCID=0&ntid=118&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0

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External links modified (January 2018)
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