Talk:Twelfth Night (holiday)

Yule
There is also a Twelfth Night of Yule which is still celebrated by Scandinavian/Germanic countries (mostly Christianized) and Germanic Neopagans. This falls on January 31st opposite of the first night of Yule called Mother Night which is the solstice. I propose that this be cited and included in the article or possibly seperated in to two articles Twelfth Night (Christmas) and Twelfth Night (Yule).99.54.188.157 (talk) 08:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with this statement 100%, especially since this tradition was celebrated long before the Christian edition, which was simply overhauled in order to convince others to convert more easily. 104.50.134.217 (talk) 21:58, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Cleanup needed
This page needs a major cleanup -- intro is muddled and contradictory, few refs, failure to explain about which date is which. Help!


 * I'm afraid we have some POV issues going on here. Until and if they're resolved, that's just how it's going to be. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * One of the contradictions is One source of this confusion is the Medieval custom of starting each new day at sunset, so that Twelfth Night precedes Twelfth Day which would mean that Twelfth Night would be the evening of the 4th, which would be eve of the 5th. Twelve days after the 25th. It in no way explains the 6th. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:35, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move
No move Parsecboy (talk) 14:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Twelfth Night (holiday) → Twelfth Night — This disambiguation is not required, this article should be moved to Twelfth Night, and the article on the play should either be moved to Twelfth Night, Or What You Will or Twelfth Night (Shakespeare play) or something like that. — ViperSnake151 15:04, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Oppose. When someone says "Twelfth Night" to me, I think of the Shakespeare play. I think that is primary use. Sam5 (talk) 17:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I, too, think of Shakespeare. Leave the primary disambiguation there. Gene Nygaard (talk) 17:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. I think it is more 'encyclopædic' for Twelfth Night (the day/evening) to be the primary use and for Twelfth Night Or What You Will, a play named after the day, to be listed as a secondary use. 80.176.88.21 (talk) 18:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It should be based on what people are most likely to link to, or to be looking for when it is entered in the search box. And no, before you try to claim a bunch of links going to the holiday, all of those links due solely to other articles sharing that god-awful ugly, humongous "Christmas" navigation template do not count.  Gene Nygaard (talk) 20:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose a dab page would be more likely than moving this page. 76.66.198.171 (talk) 04:47, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The Shakespeare play looks like the primary use. --DAJF (talk) 09:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The _primary_ reference for "Twelfth Night" is the play.  The primary _feast_ is Epiphany, January 6th - these days, January 5th is just that. Tevildo (talk) 23:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The play is the thing. --Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 23:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

Using midnight to reckon the days of Christmas
The very name 'midnight' suggests that it is the middle of the night. OK, we change our calendar to the next day then, but there's no way that the days of Christmas are reckoned from midnight. They would be reckoned from sunset - nominally 6pm.

The question then becomes whether the night of 24-25th is the first night of Christmas, but I don't see how it can be seriously doubted that the day of 25th is the first day of Christmas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.152.152 (talk) 16:21, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

King Cake Parties in New Orleans
Weekly king cake parties are rather antiquated now and not the norm, at least as special parties in and of themselves. King cake is served at most parties throughout the Carnival season but these parties are not necessarily specific to king cake. Many people do not enforce the obligation that comes with getting the baby (i.e. having the next party) mainly because commercial bakeries include the plastic baby with the cake but do not bake the baby into it as they once did due to the possibility of litigation from choking on it. (I know, right?) That kind of took the fun out of it. "Back in the day" king cake parties were mainly teenager events and mothers instructed their kids "DON'T YOU DARE GET THE BABY!" because it meant hosting a party.

Alas, those days are past... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrbentley (talk • contribs) 14:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

NPOV How many reliable sources do we need for 12th night can also be January 6?
There are quite a few.. The Great Comedies and Tragedies (Wordsworth Classics of World Literature) (Paperback) By (author) William Shakespeare, Introduction by Judith Buchanan, Introduction by Emma Smith, "The title of Twelfth Night calls to mind the festivities traditionally held on 6 January, the twelfth night after Christmas."

Twelfth Night edited by Rex Gibson, Anthony Partington, Richard Spencer, Vicki Wienand, Richard Andrews, Cambridge University Press, "In Elizabethan times, the twelve days after Christmas, up to Twelfth Night on 6 January (Epiphany), were traditionally a period of holiday and festival."

On the other hand, Encyclopedia of Tudor England, Volume 1 says "In England, the Christmas season extended from Christmas Eve to Epiphany (the celebration of the visit of the Wise Men to the infant Jesus) on 6 January. Epiphany was also called Twelfth Day. for it was the 12th day after Christmas, and thus the last day of the 12-day Christmas season. In the Middle Ages, Twelfth Night, the eve of Epiphany, had been the most important midwinter celebration, but by Tudor times. 25 December. Christmas Day itself,".

And making the variation explicit, "In 567 the Council of tours proclaimed that the entire period between Christmas and Epiphany should be considered part of the celebration, creating what became known as the twelve days of Christmas, or what the English called Christmastide. On the last of the twelve days, called Twelfth Night, various cultures developed a wide range of additional special festivities. The variation extends even to the issue of how to count the days. If Christmas Day is the first of the twelve days, then Twelfth Night would be on January 5, the eve of Epiphany. If December 26, the day after Christmas, is the first day, then Twelfth Night falls on January 6, the evening of Epiphany itself." Christmas: A Candid History By Bruce David Forbes, University of California Press. Dougweller (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The 1929 Edition of Christmas and Christmas Lore by T. G. Crippen says that as the evening service on January 5th is is the 'first Vespers of Epiphany' then this is Twelfth Night, however he says that as most people see the day as starting with the morning then Twelfth Night starts at Sunset on 6th January. Rosser Gruffydd 09:43, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

It should also be of note that the Hebrew calendar (which would have been the common way of counting days in Jesus' time and place) begins its days at sundown and ends them at the following sundown. By this route, the Twelfth Day of Xmas could begin only after the Twlfth night had passed, & immediately at sundown on the 6th epiphany would begin. Of course, dates are fluid, as "shepherds watching their flocks by night," in association with the famous birth, puts it clearly in the spring--the only time shepherds would watch their flocks by night (birth season).Rtelkin (talk) 05:16, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that Old Twelfth Night be merged into Twelfth Night (holiday). The two articles seem to be about the same event, except that they are celebrated on different days because the old version is scheduled based on the old Julian calendar. If the articles are merged, the tradition of Old Twelfth Night and its celebration on 17 January should be included in the combined article. Is there a need for both articles? SchreiberBike talk 05:48, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If there's no objection, I'll perform the merge in about a week. SchreiberBike talk 23:48, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

food
Black bun is a Scottish delicacy and the article text has a link to twelfth night. I believe the reverse should also be the case, even more so as a Spanish roscón is featured. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.160.157 (talk) 11:19, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * According to the black bun article, that tradition went out with the Scottish Reformation in 1560. That seems like too small a connection to make it really helpful to the article. Feel free to add it yourself if you think it fits though. SchreiberBike talk 17:16, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Sixth of January
January 6 has always, always been the Epiphany since the fifth or sixth century, a completely separate season liturgically from Christmas. January 5 has always been the last DAY of Christmas, it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, at least for the forseeable future. The ONLY question about when Twelfth Night is is whether it falls on what is liturgically the twelfth night of Christmas, which would be the evening of January 4 to us modern day folks, or what we consider the evening of January 5 in our day. That is the only confusion. The Sixth of January is the Feast of the Epiphany, not a part of Christmas. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 17:19, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That is your opinion, and possibly an assertion that the CofE is the only body that counts. The Telegraph article simply pointed out that there are people who consider 12th night to be the 6th, which is reflected in the fact that the Oxford Dictionary gives the 6th as the first date. We can't choose sides. Dougweller (talk) 17:38, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Doug, there is no question about it. It is not a matter of opinion, any more than the question of whether or not the earth is flat and the solar system is heliocentric or geocentric.  Yes, Oxford Dictionary is wrong, absolutely.  January is Epiphany, always has been since the fifth century.  First Day of Christmas = 25 December; Second Day of Christmas = 26 December; Third Day of Christmas = 27 December; Fourth Day of Christmas = 28 December; Fifth Day of Christmas = 29 December; Sixth Day of Christmas = 30 December; Seventh Day of Christmas = 31 December; Eighth Day of Christmas = 1 January; Ninth Day of Christmas = 2 January; Tenth Day of Christmas = 3 January; Eleventh Day of Christmas = 4 January; Twelfth Day of Christmas = 5 January; were it part of Christmas at all, 6 January would be the Thirteenth Day of Christmas.  Now, per section IV of Pope Paul VI's encyclical entitled "Universal Norms on the Liturgical Year and the General Roman Calendar" (http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Calendar/Info/GNLY.pdf), Christmas Time now extends through to include the Sunday after Epiphany, at least for the Roman Church.  This, however, is not the historic Twelve Days of Christmas, as even the afore-mentioned encyclical notes.  As an observation, the Twelve Days of Christmas originated in England and spread to the Continent. Now, there is confusion about when those Twelve Days begin in that many Protestants and non-Christians in America have been under the impression that the Twelve Days start on 16 December.  That is, in fact, a legitimate confusion.  The idea that Twelfth Night could be on 6 January is simply slipshod, lazy research.  Chuck Hamilton (talk) 19:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Have you looked at the sources under the section heading "NPOV How many reliable sources do we need for 12th night can also be January 6?"? You may think they are all wrong, but you surely know our policy of Verification, NPOV and reliable sources. We go by what the sources say, not what we think is truth. Are you saying we must reject those sources and ignore them? Dougweller (talk) 19:19, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Take a look at, and . Dougweller (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * And . Dougweller (talk) 06:28, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Chuck Hamilton: the phrase "It is not a matter of opinion, any more than the question of whether or not the earth is flat and the solar system is heliocentric or geocentric" cannot be applied to anything in human culture, no matter how desperately someone might wish to believe it. It's odd, though, that people frequently use such a definitiveness to describe things made by humans, and yet doubt the true science with which you use to justify your opinion (and the chief area of conflict, of course: the theory of evolution is as widely proven and accepted among scientists as is our solar system's heliocentricity, yet this is, of course, a supreme irony in that only some branches of christianity and other religions are as willing to accept its basic truth over "contrary" faith-based versions of how everything became and is).Rtelkin (talk) 05:29, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

The only possible confusion about Twelfth Night is whether it falls on the eve (night before from a modern perspective) of 5 January or on Epiphany Eve (which, from a modern POV, would be the Twelfth Night). "Epiphany Eve" does not refer to the day preceding Epiphany, but to the evening before the day of the Epiphany. Liturgically, a day always, always, always begins at sundown the evening before what modern authorities (at least in Western countries) consider the day to begin, just like in the Judaism the Church inherited its earliest traditions from. A feast day may be celebrated as soon as the sun goes down on that eve, though in modern practice this is frequently pushed even farther back on occasions like Christmas Eve (a children's Mass at 4 or 5 pm, for example). Chuck Hamilton (talk) 22:29, 5 April 2019 (UTC)