Talk:Twelve Days of Christmas

Julian to Gregorian Calendar
I think that the major driver for this song was the change of the calendar in colonial times. According to another Wiki item, Britain and the British Empire (including the eastern part of what is now the United States) adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1752 by which time it was necessary to correct by 11 days. Wednesday, 2 September 1752 was followed by Thursday, 14 September 1752.

Secular
What on earth is a "secular Christan"???138.163.0.42 (talk) 17:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Only a true computer geek could write this description of the Twelve Days of Christmas:

"Each Nth verse begins with On the Nth day of Christmas, My true love gave to me where N is substituted by the verse number and is then followed by the last N lines of.... "

DJ Clayworth 14:53, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Viking Reference
I am removing for the Viking reference since it appears less than scholarly. Even the cited paragraph is weakly worded "Their Midwinter Feast lasted at least twelve days," and fails to address the dating used for both Epiphany and Christmas by theologians in the middle-east in the 4th through 6th century (the period of time when Christmas became formalized) who had no extended contact with vikings. Nickjost (talk) 03:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Scandinavians still celebrate YULE-tide over 12 days and always have since pre-Christian times. Fails to address Christmas date? The festival was originally celebrated from late December to early January on a date determined by the lunar Germanic calendar. The festival was placed on December 25 when the Christian (Julian) calendar was later used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.67.214 (talk) 11:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Interesting trivia
By the end of the song, 364 gifts have been given.

$$ (1 partridge) + (2 turtledoves + 1 partridge) + (3 french hens + 2 turtledoves + 1 partridge) Etc. = 364 items \! \, $$

Ooh I just added this fact to the article. I've often wondered whether it was intentional. It's also just the right number to have a present every day of the year bar christmas and leap day ;) Barnaby dawson 00:23, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The total number of gifts received by a given day is the tetrahedral number for that day. 364 is the 12th tetrahedral number.

The maximum number received of any gift by the 12th day is 42, which applies to the geese a-laying and the swans a-swimming.

Karl Palmen 2 Dec 2004

I recently heard a rendition of this song in which, at the end of the last verse, the partridge is repeated:
 * ...Two turtle doves
 * And a partridge in a pear tree
 * [ritard]
 * And a partridge in a pear tree

Which makes a total of 365 gifts.
 * That's actually an excellent point. Though, I still think the 365 is an amazing coincidence. JPG-GR 04:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

In Mexico, the Twelfth Day of Christmas is a big celebration called the day of the Kings. A round cake know as "rosca" is baked with a little baby Jesus inside and a party is thrown. Whoever gets the piece of the Rosca with the baby Jesus inside throws a party on February 2. Biondanyc (talk) 14:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Factual correction
I made my recent edit in the interest of factual accuracy. Any objections on NPOV grounds are grounded in a fundamentally flawed interpretation of NPOV--giving every assertion equal weight regardless of whether or not it makes sense or fits the evidence is not NPOV, rather, it systematically biases toward POV that do *not* fit the evidence and against POV that *does* fit the evidence. And to any thinking man, there is *no* question where the assorted evidence points--even the link that was supposed to argue FOR the 16th century England story ultimately concedes that the story is likely apocryphal (after half-heartedly defending its historical accuracy with a broadside of logical fallacies.)

Incidentally, this is one of the most prevalent problems with Wikipedia as a whole.

Philwelch 03:59, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I think your recent edits are an improvement, with the exception of deleting the external link to the Christian resource page on the symbolic meanings. The snopes.com page does a good job of looking at the alleged symbolism critically, so I see no harm in giving a neutral-to-opposing view and let readers decide for themself (taking the clearly labelled source's bias into account).
 * The link used to look like this:
 * An argument supporting the secret meaning theory at The Christian Resource Intstitute
 * Perhaps this particular link could be improved with relabelling but what's important, I think, is that the External links section of this entry give an interested reader a starting point for outside facts that are too detailed/biased/tangent to be summarized or included in the core article. I certainly appreciated that link when it was first added. Would you or anyone object to that link being put back?
 * --Ds13 07:17, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this particular link could be improved with relabelling but what's important, I think, is that the External links section of this entry give an interested reader a starting point for outside facts that are too detailed/biased/tangent to be summarized or included in the core article. I certainly appreciated that link when it was first added. Would you or anyone object to that link being put back?
 * --Ds13 07:17, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * --Ds13 07:17, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Good argument. I've added it back. My multitude of edits was simply for rephrasing, as it occurred to me. Philwelch 08:26, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Another factual correction
Boxing day isn't always the 26th. It's the first weekday...as still observed when the British Parliament announce the bank holiday ... which is never on the weekend. 91.125.76.8 (talk) 03:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

In 2009, "Boxing Day" is a satuday, and the bank holiday is moved to the Monday in lieu of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.67.214 (talk) 11:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Someone ought to merge Twelve days of Christmas
Admins? ~ender 2005-11-11 01:53:MST

I deliberately ensured that two separate articles would occur. One is about a song and the other is about something referred to in that song. These I see as two different entities. Karl Palmen 16 Nov 2005


 * Well, I guess I'm saying I didn't find both of them while just reading. If I hadn't re-typed this url (incorrectly) when returning (and noticed the huge difference), I wouldn't have figured out there were two seperate topics seperated by a change in a single capital letter...
 * ~ender 2005-12-02 22:22:MST

Internal Contradictions
Our explanation of the history contradicts the introduction. Could someone who knows something correct it? DJ Clayworth 15:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Umm, is this still on the merge topic? Seems like you fergot some '=' and a title...  I'll be bold and edit it that way :)
 * ~ender 2005-12-02 22:22:MST

While we're here coiled birds? What does coiled mean here? I'm assuming it doesn't mean 'wrapped up in a spiral'. DJ Clayworth 15:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

all in a pear tree?
I've just been wondering, is everything in the pear tree, or is the partridge alone? (similarly is the ham green in "green eggs and ham"?--CallmeNiel 03:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, unless it the old song was intended to conjure absurd images, and it doesn't seem to have that tone, the swimming swans, dancing ladies, drummers, pipers, lords, and so forth are not all up a tree. With Dr. Seuss, a humorously absurd interpretation is much less out of place, so who knows. Jonathunder 19:46, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, our article on Green Eggs and Ham indicates yes. Jonathunder 19:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone give any credence to the notion that a 'peartree' was a wooden birdcage made out of the wood of a pear tree? No axe to grind either way ..... --Northener 23:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Broken link?
I believe the Christmas World link is broken, although that might just be temporary, or limited to me only.
 * Me too. Color it GONE. Wahkeenah 20:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

What does this line mean?
At the beginning of the article the following statement appears:

"or the days from Christmas through the eve December 24 of Epiphany"

This line is confusing to me but maybe I just don't understand what is being said. How can the twelve days of Christmas be from Christmas (December 25) to "the eve December 24 of Epiphany". I don't remember my Catholic teachings real well but isn't the Epiphany traditionally something like January 10?

Anyway, I don't know what the above line means but I don't know what it should be edited to.

James084 16:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I am similarly confused by the lead paragraph:


 * "The Twelve Days of Christmas, and the associated evenings of those twelve days (Twelve-tide), are the festive days beginning the evening of Christmas Day (December 25) through the morning of Epiphany (January 6). The associated evenings of the twelve days begin on the evening before the specified day. Thus, the first night of Christmas is December 24–25 and Twelfth Night is January 4–5. Twelfth Day is January 6."


 * I don't understand the ins and outs of the history or background of the Twelve Days of Christmas, but the explanation in the lead paragraph adds to my confusion. If the FIRST NIGHT is the night of December 24/25, the TWELFTH NIGHT is the night of January 4/5, and the TWELFTH DAY is January 6, this means that the twelfth day (January 6) follows what logically would be the THIRTEENTH NIGHT -- the night of January 5/6.


 * I can't say that such odd counting can't be so, but, if so, it's screwy enough that the 12th day following the 13th night should be explained clearly. What am I missing?

DBK (talk) 05:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, if the January 6th is indeed the Twelfth Day of Christmas, then Boxing Day, or December 26th, must be the First Day of Christmas, which can't be right. And Chrismas Day would be the Zeroth Day of Christmas, which isn't even in the song. Twelfth Day must be 5th and Twelfth Night 5th/6th.

Steve Graham (talk) 20:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The Zeroth Day of Christmas is either Christmas Eve, or a sleigh overflow error. Xmoogle (talk) 17:35, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Reference
I inserted the book chapter The Twelve Holy Days since it contains a view of The Twelve Days after Christmas from the perspective of Occultism (including Astrology related field) and Esoteric Christianity/Mystic Christianity, which examines aspects of Christmas generally unnoticed by traditional/mainstream denominations in Christianity or by historical research. The Chapter is from a 7 volume major work on Bible interpretation, published in 1954, which the author named "New Age (...)" (as a distinction from the tradicional exoteric/ortodox interpretations). It has little to do with current-day New Age vain spirituality, but it is related to man consciousness development toward the future Age of Aquarius, which requires more profound (not literal) intellectual and mystical-oriented research about Spiritual issues. All serious studies have to be allowed and not only atheistic or mainstream religious ones. --GalaazV 16:26, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * And I just cut it. It has very little to do with the Christmas celebration of Twelvetide which arises simply from the accidental juxtaposition of two festivals concerned with the Incarnation of Christ, and certainly nothing to do with the song or the historical origins of the season.  It was evidently not used for the article, and therefore doesn't belong in the "References" section anyway.  If you want to put it under "External links", I'd have no objections. (It even got the dates wrong, contradicting every other known source by placing Twelfth Night on 6 January!)
 * I substituted a reference to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Christmas, which at least mentions the twelve days. I'll try to dig up a better one later, if the season leaves me any free time. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Moved to External links. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Added a point of view, esoteric and astrological interpretations, at the introduction about the Twelve Days on issue at this article and made also reference to sources. As I said before it is as valid POV as the mainstream traditional one. Regards --GalaazV 23:18, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure it belongs here either. There also appears to be some typos or grammatical mistakes in there. James084 23:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC) It's gone now, nevermind.


 * I inserted it since I felt it would not be very logical to create a new article about the same theme, just to express a different point of view on the same subject. If you feel the way it was placed it is not the most correct, please do the improvements you may think it would be better to integrate this POV (please without changing the meaning). English is not my native language, so it is possible gramatical errors may occur. Thank you. --GalaazV 23:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Esotericism
My earlier remarks vanished due to an edit conflict, and I don't know if I feel up to repeating all of it.

And another one. For heaven's sake, can't I get this in here without a conflict?

The notes for GalaazV's most recent edit weren't added correctly -- see Footnotes -- so I'm left with the choice to either clean it up or revert. So you can see what I did.

A reader coming to this article wondering what the song is about isn't particularly interested in an esoteric interpretation of the time of year, especially one that seems to be the invention of a single obscure writer 40 years ago. This is not useful information. It's POV pushing. (See, for example, the remark GalaazV added when he wrote Corinne Heline . A "tribute"? Are we supposed to expect an NPOV bio after that?) The festival in question is centuries old, and the mystical/new age/zodiacal overlay applied by a mid-20th century writer could only reasonably be considered relevant if it had achieved widespread recognition. Despite the assertion of "thousands", there are hundreds of millions who never heard of it, and would reject it if they did. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:44, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

P.S. I added a link to the work in question as an "External link" a little while ago, so after the edit there were actually two links to it. I did not remove the external link in the revert, and I really think this is sufficient exposure for it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:48, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I understant you point of view (it does not mean I fully agree with it). Anyway, I am not here to cause any edit war or have any unpleseant discussion and less even about a subject as sublime as this one. Regards, and merry Christmas. --GalaazV 23:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[Andrew L adds:] An art historian, David Ovason, has written a book called "The Two Children" where he has deeply dealt with the esotericism of Renaissance art in regards to depicting the stories of Luke and Matthew as separate stories. David cites several other authors who also have come to this conclusion. In this book, it is suggested that the Eastern Orthodox church originally had the birth of the Jesus of Matthew happening on January 6th while the Luke story had a different Jesus born on December 25th after the Slaughter of the Innocents. Later at the Temple, these two were "made one" as predicted in Dead Sea Scrolls. The baptism was placed on this January day as well as because it was deemed to be, not only the birth of Jesus, but later at the baptism the birth of the Christ who entering this body, soul, and spirit rendering the entity Jesus-Christ. I realize that this brings up several of the so-called heresies of early Christianity but in this Wiki section we probably should make mention of this. UMinventor (talk) 01:45, 10 November 2014 (UTC) Andrew L] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.141.42 (talk) 01:33, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Is this a mainstream view or a fringe view? If it's the former, find others who agree and we should discuss it. If not, WP:UNDUE would apply. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:06, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Correct dates December 26 to January 6
I believe the article is currently incorrect in its dating of the 12 days from December 25.

"The last of the mystic twelve days is Epiphany or Twelfth Night ..." Frazer, Sir James George (1854 - 1941), The Golden Bough, 1922

Frazer may be considered an authority on British calendar customs, and as he states that the Twelve Days finish on Twelfth Night (January 6), not Twelfth Night Eve (Epiphany Eve, or January 5) as the article currently states, the Twelve Days should be said to commence on Boxing Day (December 26), not Christmas Day. January 6 (Epiphany) has always been known in the English tradition as Twelfth Day, not Thirteenth Day.

One verse of an ancient Pembrokeshire, England 'wren boys' carol traditionally sung on St Stephen's Day (December 26, aka Boxing Day) is one of many items of evidence that help us date Twelvetide - the Twelve Days of Christmas - as traditionally beginning on December 26 rather than Christmas Day itself, and thus, counting 12 days, the dating of Twelfth Day and Twelfth Night on January 6:

"Now Christmas is past/Twelvetide is at last/And we bid you adieu/Great joy to the new."

Thus I suggest that the Twelve Days of Christmas are December 26 to January 6. I won't change the article at this point, but throw it open for discussion. Alpheus 23:10, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It is utterly foreign to traditional Christian thought to associate the night following a day with the day; it is always the night before. "Eve" means the evening before a feast day, as in "Christmas Eve", and is considered itself to be the beginning of the feast since liturgical days are reckoned from sunset to sunset. (This is a custom taken over from Judaism.) Epiphany Eve can therefore be Twelfth Night, and it's not a contradiction at all for Epiphany Day to be Twelfth Day at the same time. In fact, "eve" is exactly cognizant with "night", so the meaning just falls right out here. Other refs: ,,, . In other words, the quote from Frazier is correct, but if you think that the "night of Epiphany" is the night following Epiphany and not before, you will misunderstand it.


 * Some confusion when trying to reconcile this with modern usage is inevitable. When we say from "the night of December 25" in modern terms, we mean from the night following that day because we reckon our days from midnight to midnight, and a time after midnight is considered the morning of the next day.  But counted liturgically, the night starting at sunset on the 25th is really the 26.  So you're not wrong either, but only in a medieval/liturgical context where the next day starts at sunset. So yes, "First Day" is the 26th, but "First Night" is on the 25th -- in modern reckoning. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * This is a good answer, thank you Csernica, though the first time I have heard that the usage of "night" is the same as "eve". Any other views from readers? Alpheus 03:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Regardless of the association of the eves with the 12 days of Christmas, the first day of Christmas is the 26th, and the 12th day is Jan. 6. Period.  Christmas day is not one of the 12 days of Christmas.  But also, the eve of the first day of Christmas is the 25th.  Isn't that transparently obvious?  User-talk:Chad A. Woodburn


 * You're saying that Christmas day is not one of the 12 days of Christmas, yet you're saying that it starts on the 25th. That is way too confusing to those unfamiliar with the evening-to-evening approach as to what a "day" is. It would be best to simply say that the so-called "first day of Christmas" runs from the evening of the 25th to the evening of the 26th, the "second day" runs from the evening of the 26th to the evening of the 27th, etc., and that "Twelfth Night" is the evening of the 6th, i.e. "Epiphany". And by the way, there is an implicit evening-to-evening connection with Christmas day itself which is still observed, i.e there are often religious services on Christmas eve, which in effect is the start of the actual Christmas day, under the evening-to-evening reckoning. Wahkeenah 17:38, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

On further research, I maintain (with some but not complete confidence) my suggestion above that the Twelve Days are Dec 26 - Jan 6 inclusive. As I see it, the solution depends on whether Twelfth Night celebrations were made on January 5th or 6th, and I note that celebrations were held on both Twelfth-Night Eve (Jan 5) and Twelfth Night (Jan 6), but the latter were the main ones. The best sources I know to quote are Sir James Frazer, William Hone and Robert Chambers, all expert 19th-century British folklorists. Frazer I have already quoted. Hone says the Twelfth Night celebrations were on the night of January 6 (and the lesser ones on January 5 were called Twelfth-Night Eve) and Chambers also asserts that although there were some apparently minor "rustic" festivals in England on January 5 (Twelfth-Night Eve), the main Twelfth Night festivities were on the next night, ie, the night of Twelfth Day (January 6). Taken with the ancient Pembrokeshire 'wren boys' song, I think the case is persuasive for my conclusion (above). Despite my learned friend Csernica's considered objections, I again suggest that the Twelve Days of Christmas end on the night of January 6 and thus begin on the morning of December 26, but I am open to persuasion if sources greater than Frazer, Hone and Chambers can be produced. It is a problem I have considered and not completely satisfied myself on for 30 years, as I have long taken Csernica's point about eve/night traditions as relevant. Happy holiday to all.

PS I note that the Wikipedia entry for Twelfth Night has been amended to included the quote from Frazer that I posted above, and today reads (undecidedly and confusingly):


 * "Twelfth Night (January 5th? 6th?) is a holiday marked by some branches of Christianity, marking the 12th and final night of the Christmas season. According to mainstream Christian denominations, namely Catholic Church, the night of twelfth day is on January 5, the eve of the Epiphany celebration (January 6) to commemorate the adoration of the Magi. (Sir James George Frazer, The Golden Bough, 1922: 'The last of the mystic twelve days is Epiphany or Twelfth Night ...'). According to esoteric and astrological interpretation of Christmas, the 'Twelve Holy Days' start on December 26th, the day following Christmas 'holy day', and end on January 6th; therefore the night of January 6th is regarded as the Twelfth Night, the time when the 'Rite of Baptism' was performed in early Christianity, and of course the date of Epiphany itself."

By the way, the page for January 5 in Wikipedia links to Twelfth Night, and I suggest should link to Twelfth-Night Eve, as the information above will, I'm sure, attest. Alpheus 01:05, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * And I maintain that, as near as I can interpret things, December 26 through January 6 IS NOT CORRECT and IS CONFUSING. It is the evening of December 25 through or at least up to the evening of January 6. Wahkeenah 01:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the Roman Catholics and the Anglicans traditionally did it differently, and might still today, for all I know. But I do think that I've given plenty of evidence for Dec 26 to Jan 6 and even if it is confusing, Wahkeenah, we should get it right and that is the way it appears to have been celebrated in the English/Anglican tradition acccording to pretty strong evidence, which you're welcome to refute. Alpheus


 * My source is Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, which asserts the following:
 * Christmastide is "The festival season from Christmas Eve till after New Year's Day or, especially in England, till Epiphany (January 6)."
 * Twelfth-night is "The evening of January 6, the feast of Epiphany, or Twelfth-day, the concludinge period of medieval Christmas festivals."
 * Twelfthtide is "The twelfth day after Christmas; Epiphany; also called Twelfth-day."
 * Epiphany ("The Appearance") is "A feast celebrated January 6, commemorating the coming of the Magi as being the first manifestation of Christ to the Gentiles. Compare 'Twelfth-night', 'Twelfthtide'."
 * "Tide" in this sense comes from the Anglo-Saxon word for "time".
 * I stand by my argument that it runs from the evening (or sundown) of December 25th until sundown of January 6th, which is exactly 12 periods of 24 hours. All of this squares with Old Testament tradition of considering the start of a new day to be at sundown. Hence all the Christmas carols on Christmas Eve, which is effectively the start of Christmas. Christmas Day is, of course, the 25th.

Wahkeenah 02:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

It is the evening of Epiphany. This happens to be the evening that starts on sundown of January 5. Just like the evening of Christmas, Christmas Eve, is on December 24. It is absolutely wrong to say that Twelfth Night is the evening following the day of Januray 6. That is simply not how time was counted when this was a regularly obeserved celebration. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, Christmas Eve is the evening of the 24th, and Christmas Day is the 25th. And "Epiphany Eve" would be the evening of the 5th, and "Epiphany Day" would be the 6th. Ja? Wahkeenah 05:27, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. And "eve" means "night", as in "evening". Our use of "eve" for the day before an important event comes from the celebrations commencing a holy day that are held on the evening before, transposed from the traditional sundown-to-sundown reckoning into the more recent midnight-to-midnight reckoning. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:44, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, so that leaves it clear as mud as to what the 12 days of Christmas are. Let me put it this way: Tell me what point in time the "twelfth day of Christmas" begins and ends. Wahkeenah 06:48, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Try Christmas Day (Dec 25th) == 1 (starting sunup) -> Epiphany Day (Jan 6th) == 12 (ending at sundown).
 * ~ender 2006-01-31 13:11:PM MST

Well, I give up and these pages are coming off my watchlist. It's not worth the effort. None of these cited are primary sources -- every single one of them is reporting on past times -- and I'm virtually certain they've become confused by the custom of referring to days by name rather than by date, and have interpreted the names according to their own current usages, which correspond to our own. But I suppose if the dictionary is wrong (although I note that you have to use circular logic to extract the date you want from it) then I suppose it's OK for Wikipedia to be too. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth (not much), there doesn't seem to be any consensus across the Internet. I reckon that shows how important (NOT) the whole concept is. 0:) Wahkeenah 06:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

What is so hard with this concept? Christmas ends when Epiphany begins.

Dec. 25 - Christmas, Day 01 (begins on the night of the 24th--Christmas Eve)

Dec. 26 - Day 02

Dec. 27 - Day 03

Dec. 28 - Day 04

Dec. 29 - Day 05

Dec. 30 - Day 06

Dec. 31 - Day 07

Jan. 01 - Day 08

Jan. 02 - Day 09

Jan. 03 - Day 10

Jan. 04 - Day 11

Jan. 05 - Day 12

Jan. 06 - Epiphany (begins on the night of the 5th--hence the 12th Night)

The Twelfth Night (holiday) article in Wikipedia quotes the OED as saying that Epiphany begins on the night of January 5. You might also take a look at Epiphany (Christian) while you are at it.

One doesn't need to look for hidden or esoteric ways of counting in something so straightforward. Bob 04:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Esoteric doesn't enter into it. The question is, what is right and what is wrong. Also, for encyclopedic purposes, it may be important to describe what is believed to be right and what is believed to be wrong. As Wahkeenah points out, there is not concensus among sources. However, the dates above do not coincide with the general tenor of this discussion. The following dates seem to match better, and are supported by some sources. We should obtain more citations.
 * Dec 24th sundown - Dec 25th sundown ===>  Christmas Day, holy day
 * Dec 25th sundown - Dec 26th sundown ===>  day 1 of the Twelve days of Christmas
 * Dec 26th sundown - Dec 27th sundown ===>  day 2 of the Twelve days of Christmas
 * Jan 4th sundown - Jan 5th sundown ===>  day 11 of the Twelve days of Christmas
 * Jan 5th sundown - Jan 6th sundown ===>  day 12 of the Twelve days of Christmas, which is also Epiphany
 * Jan 5th sundown - Jan 6th sundown ===>  day 12 of the Twelve days of Christmas, which is also Epiphany

The term "Christmas Eve" formerly denoted the period immediately following sundown on December 24th, but in modern times has come to denote the whole of December 24th. The terms "Twelfth Night" and "Epiphany Eve" formerly denoted the period immediately following sundown on January 5th, but there is some contemporary confusion about when exactly "Twelfth Night" should be.Mooncow (talk) 03:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you mooncow, this is the way the University of Toronto teaches it in the medieval studies programme - counting from Sundown so that January 6th is the conclusion of Christmastide. That's also why some of the medieval carols specify time (e.g. the "eve", the "feast") as part of reckoning within Christmastide.
 * Also it would be helpful if someone could list more of the 12 days. At the moment it lists a few days (e.g. St Stephen, St John, Holy Innocents) but for later days it says to go according to local usage - this is incorrect as there isn't any Use in modern Catholic practise, and afaik the Church of England also standardised recently. 192.0.182.43 (talk) 21:20, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Revise Article
This article does not have a Adequate amount of information. All this shows is subjects about the song and such. This article does not even straightly have to do with the actual Twelve Days of Christmas.

It would be nice if there were pictures of the things from the twelve days of Christmas, especially since Wiki doesnt seem to have pictures of all the things in its current articles- eg French Hens- none of the French varieties of chicken listed have any pictures. Regarding the above remark, there is a seperate article about the days see further up the talk page

IceDragon64 22:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The 12 thank-you notes of Christmas
This piece of internet humour referenced in the article as "authors unknown" was actually by John Julius Norwich; it's given a very brief mention on his page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Julius_Norwich

It's available in book form from amazon - the description there should be supporting evidence enough ;) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Twelve-Days-Christmas-Correspondence/dp/038541028X

87.113.31.198 23:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

language of this song
I can't find any information on the language in this song. In particular, I am wondering about the "a-..." as in "a-swimming" "a-milking" etc. Is that just in this song? Or was that a typical way of speaking/writing/singing for the time that rhyme/song was written? (1780) Does anyone have any information/links about the language of this song? Cheers. Dailyenglish 10:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ten lords
i thought it was ten lords a-marching, not leaping especially since it seems to be more fitting for lords --Ahlee 9:15, 14, December 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ahlee123 (talk • contribs) 05:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

One more parody
As part of a NHS campaign for safe sex, in some secondary schools of East Riding of Yorkshire, at least, teachers had to play to their students a song called The Twelve STIs of Christmas. The lyrics follow almost the same pattern with exception of the last line of each verse that changes each time. They are: On the first day of Christmas, my true love gave to me A bug that made it hard to pee

On the second day of Christmas,... And a chance of infertility

On the third day of Christmas,... And my testicles are sore and lumpy

On the fourth day of Christmas,... And a discharge that was hourly

On the fifth day of Christmas,... And a possibility of HIV

On the sixth day of Christmas,... And an infection that was urinary

On the seventh day of Christmas,... And a visit to the surgery

On the eighth day of Christmas,... And my groin itches constantly

On the nineth day of Christmas,... And sores that spread anally

On the tenth day of Christmas,... Wearing pants with some difficulties

On the eleventh day of Christmas,... And I no longer feel horny

On the twelfth day of Christmas, my true love gave to me Dose of the crabs Pelvic inflammatory disease Scabies Genital warts Trichomoniasis Hepatitis Pubic lice Gonorrhoea Genital herpes Syphilis Chlamydia And no one will make love to me

83.100.255.203 11:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There was back in the 1970s a New Mexican version of this song, substituting various NM related item instead of the partridges, et al. It received some airplay on KOB (now KKOB), but all I can remember of it is a phrase about "ristras swinging", which is think was the substitute for "turtle doves" but I am not sure. Google search on those two words reveals nothing. Anybody here know about this? Wschart 17:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * On Thursday, 28 December 2006, I saw an advertisement for the TV show "My Boys" that was a parody of the Twelve Days of Christmas. PlaysInPeoria 04:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Collage
It might be fun making a collage for this article from the free pictures on commons? Perhaps a pyramid showing 12 of the same image of a drummer, 11 pipers, etc. --Astrokey 44 10:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC) Possible images:

perdrix
Well, well - what a fount of all knowledge Wikipedia is. I was just wondering about the "pear tree/perdrix" near-homophone, and there it is in Wikipedia. It even works with the article, "une" being pronounced as two syllables (/ynə/)in poetry and songs and sounding very similar to "in a". Excellent!

Could someone give an accurate rendering of the pronunciation, please? The French is pronounced /pɛʀdʀi/, and that, Anglicised, would become /pɛrˈdriː/, which is identical to a US pronunciation of "pear tree", but with /d/ for /t/ (which flapping cannot account for, as the /t/ is not intervocalic).

The pronunciation in the article is ad hoc and therefore unhelpful. Currently, it can easily be read as "per" as in "per annum", which I doubt is the intended pronunciation, but I don't know this for sure, so I have not changed it. An IPA transcription would make it clear what the pronunciation is. &mdash; Paul G 07:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Wait a minute, wait a minute...
I was told that this song originated when for a long period of time in England (don't remember when) Catholicism was illegal, so this song was made as a secret code of basic Catholic teachings. If this is true, shouldn't it be in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.129.247.128 (talk) 01:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

Oh, wait, sorry!
Ends up that was in the article. <=P But maybe it should be in the origin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.129.247.128 (talk) 01:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

Origin of Song; Colly Birds; Gold Rings
Suggestions for future edits:

Iona and Peter Opie (in The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, as I recall) reported that the Twelve Days of Christmas originated in France.

The version with "colly birds" predates "calling birds," which suggests that Biblical interpretations of the verse are incorrect, or at least much later in origin.

The "five gold rings" refers to ring-necked pheasants; the first seven verses all refer to birds [Opie]. This fact changes the total number of bird-related gifts as mentioned in the article.

PlaysInPeoria 17:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh, I opened the talk page up to point this out, but you got there before me. You are quite correct: the number of birds should be 224. (Excluding the gold rings, it's 184, not 194 as the article currently claims.) Anyone want to edit this in, or shall I? 84.70.114.68 16:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Secret Catholic Pedagogy
"The meanings attached to the gifts are common to both Catholic and Protestant theology" -- not so. Protestants then, and now, do not accept that there are seven sacraments.

81.6.227.170 17:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Why limit Carnival to Latin America?
"In Latin America the end of the Twelve Days of Christmas and Epiphany is the beginning of another religious-based season which has meshed with secular and pagan celebrations over time: That being "Carnaval" (or "Carnival") season, which concludes, in turn, on Mardi Gras Day." This is also the case in Venice, New Orleans, etc... 136.165.131.0 (talk) 18:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

12th Day
James Boswell (the friend of Dr Samuel Johnson) kept a diary during his stay in London for a few months during 1762/63 (published as Boswell's London Diary). He says in the diary entry for 6th January that it is Twelfth Day and mentions the merry-making tradition. However it is clear that this was new to him, as a Scot, and that the tradition didn't exist in Scotland. This is first-hand evidence that 12th Day is 6th Jan.Sionthomas (talk) 10:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

12 days of Christmas Home Comming
I wrote this great little play for the holidays and haveseen no discussion of it's removal here. I was hoping someone would place it here for me. It seems to me the song is rather old and this operetta is the newest thing in many years. It is a lovely performance of the holiday tune and haveing wrote it I am naturally charged with letting others know it exists. So far they are against it because I wrote it. I think th epope was here when I placed it on the page and it was there for a while.. I'd like to see it returned but since everything i write is atacked perhaps someone else could do it. Tim

PS where is mention of the song?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Timothy Sheridan (talk • contribs) 21:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not on the article because it's not notable. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for self-promotion. OhNo itsJamie Talk 22:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Not true ...
It is not true that what remains constant everywhere is the celebration of the birth of Jesus on the night of the 25th. In Germany and Austria, the celebration is on the night of the 24th and the following morning of the 25th. Presents are given at night on the 24th, the "holy night" (which is what the Austrian song refers to: "Silent night, holy night ..."). Hence I deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.250.89.152 (talk) 10:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

American Commercialization and Wrong Dates
Should there be a section discussing that (at least in the US) a lot of people think the 12 days of Christmas are the 12 days before Christmas, not after? I think this is because stores will have "12 days of Christmas" sales before Christmas, and TV stations will have similar movie marathons. I'd add it in, but after a quick bit of Googling, I couldn't find a good source.74.66.229.30 (talk) 16:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Rename
Since it is no longer about the song, this article should be moved to "Twelve days of Christmas". There is no reason to capialize "days". User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 12:36, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It is customary to capitalise the formal titles of feasts, cf. "Christmas Day". The question would be whether this is a formal title for a festive period, the Twelve Days of Christmas, or just a common descriptive phrase, the twelve days of Christmas. I think the article treats it as a quasi-formal title, and thus the capitals would still be appropriate. Mooncow (talk) 03:16, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Recent addition of information
An anonymous editor inserted some WP:OR proposing that the twelve days of Christmas had something to do with change between Julian and Gregorian calendars. I wrote the following on the user's talk page.
 * You also added some original research to the article Twelve Days of Christmas. The problems with your idea are
 * You don't actually explain it other than stating that the English-speaking world changed from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar in September of 1752. Since Christmas has been celebrated in December since the fourth century, I can't see how that could affect the change.
 * The twelve days of Christmas are celebrated between Christmas Eve and Epiphany. The date of these two religious celebrations were not affected by the change in calendar and are twelve days apart in both calendar systems.
 * The celebration of the twelve days of Christmas goes back to before the middle ages which again predates the change of calendar system.
 * Unless there's more information that you have to offer, there's no grounds for your theory. Thanks.

I reverted the change. The fact that same editor performed an edit test on the talk page also leaves me scratching my head. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:06, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Possible alternative origin?
I had a bit of an epiphany myself recently regarding this song. I have been able to find no information to substantiate my idea as yet (thus, no cites or refs, this is an original thought). My pose is this: that the 12 days of Christmas actually happened. That is, that the song describes an actual event, and was created specifically for said event; in that by the twelth day, the recipient had actually recieved or viewed all of the items mentioned (assuming an original French variation of the contents) and that the attendees of the event would have heard the entire song, one verse having been added each day. Alas, as stated, I have yet been unable to locate any historical reference that would verify this. However, it seems that such an event would be possible, if not likely, among the European upper classes in or around the 18th century.

I feel that the catechism thing, while viable, is not the original source, but merely an example of some member of the Church attempting to add religious significance to something that originally had little to do with Christianity, as so often occurs (like Christmas itself, or Easter, and so on). On the other hand, it could just as easily have evolved as a childrens' sing-song or be an actual love song (i.e.: "If I could, I would give you the world.", etc.), or something like that, but I would love to find some historical tidbit that might back up my idea.

I would gladly welcome any input, but would appreciate if such input is limited to information that either lends credence to my idea, or outright disproves it. Thanks. SanPecador (talk) 21:29, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That this actually happened is not likely. It might make sense if it were recorded by an artist, however since it became a common song sung by many makes it unlikely. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Twelfth Day
user:Walter Görlitz has undone a change I made to this article, but the change is incorrect. The wording reverted implies that Boxing Day is another word for St Stephen's Day, and it would therefore follow that Boxing Day would also move to the 27th in the Eastern Church. This is not the case. The 26th is the Feast of St Stephen in the western Christian Church. The fact that it is also called Boxing Day is unconnected - this springs from the custom of giving 'boxes' (small gifts of money) to tradespeople on that day. In fact, it used to move to the 27th in the west, certainly in the UK, when the 26th fell on a Sunday, but now that trading is allowed on a Sunday this practice has died out and Boxing Day is always celebrated on the 26th. To suggest it is an alternative name for St Stephen's Day and moves to the 27th in the east is therefore not correct. Given this, would you please not revert the latest amendment to the former, incorrect, wording. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.165.50 (talk) 03:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Your idea that they are not the same in the world is correct, but the way you did it was not.
 * WP:MOSNUM states that date formats are not to use ordinals.
 * All that needed to happen is a parenthetical comment that states that boxing day is only a celebration in the British Common Wealth (not even the UK, since Canada and Australia both acknowledge or celebrate the day) where boxing day is always on the 26th, but as a statutory holiday is observed on the 27th if it falls on a Sunday.
 * Given this, would you like to try to correct your edit? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:22, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Twelfth Night (holiday)
I've tagged this (12th Night holiday) article as NPOV and added some sources to Talk:Twelfth Night (holiday) about whether it is on the 5th or the 6th (the answer is both). Here's what I posted there:

There are quite a few.. The Great Comedies and Tragedies (Wordsworth Classics of World Literature) (Paperback) By (author) William Shakespeare, Introduction by Judith Buchanan, Introduction by Emma Smith, "The title of Twelfth Night calls to mind the festivities traditionally held on 6 January, the twelfth night after Christmas."

Twelfth Night edited by Rex Gibson, Anthony Partington, Richard Spencer, Vicki Wienand, Richard Andrews, Cambridge University Press, "In Elizabethan times, the twelve days after Christmas, up to Twelfth Night on 6 January (Epiphany), were traditionally a period of holiday and festival."

On the other hand, Encyclopedia of Tudor England, Volume 1 says "In England, the Christmas season extended from Christmas Eve to Epiphany (the celebration of the visit of the Wise Men to the infant Jesus) on 6 January. Epiphany was also called Twelfth Day. for it was the 12th day after Christmas, and thus the last day of the 12-day Christmas season. In the Middle Ages, Twelfth Night, the eve of Epiphany, had been the most important midwinter celebration, but by Tudor times. 25 December. Christmas Day itself,".

And making the variation explicit, "In 567 the Council of tours proclaimed that the entire period between Christmas and Epiphany should be considered part of the celebration, creating what became known as the twelve days of Christmas, or what the English called Christmastide. On the last of the twelve days, called Twelfth Night, various cultures developed a wide range of additional special festivities. The variation extends even to the issue of how to count the days. If Christmas Day is the first of the twelve days, then Twelfth Night would be on January 5, the eve of Epiphany. If December 26, the day after Christmas, is the first day, then Twelfth Night falls on January 6, the evening of Epiphany itself." Christmas: A Candid History By Bruce David Forbes, University of California Press. Dougweller (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Counting really doesn't help here at all when we have clearly reliable sources discussing the issue. Dougweller (talk) 12:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Pagan roots
The pagan/astrological roots of this festival are missing from this article. Eg. See "Viking reference" above. The festival was from solstice to perihelion. See --> https://atlanticreligion.com/2014/12/31/solar-origins-of-the-twelve-days-of-christmas-and-christianity/
 * But that's a blog. Do you have any reliable sources to support the claim? Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:54, 3 January 2018 (UTC)