Talk:Twelve Minor Prophets

Rename?
Hi. I suggest that this article be moved to Twelve minor prophets, for several reasons:
 * The actual title of the book is Trei Asar or The Twelve.
 * The term "Minor prophet" itself has no meaning whatsoever outside the context of this collection of twelve small books.
 * In English translaions, the bok is nerly always called "The Tweve Minor Prophets."

Redirects would of course remain from Minor prophet, Minorprophets, etc. Dovi 07:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I also think the page should be moved, dawg. However, since Twelve Minor Prophets is a name and is commonly capitalized, then should it not be moved to Twelve Minor Prophets or else Minor Prophets? --Eliyak T · C 04:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you are right: Twelve Minor Prophets, as the proper title of a book (perhaps ever with "The").Dovi 21:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think this move is a good idea. The article is about the group of people rather than the subject of what a minor prophet is (which is something that may not even deserve its own article). Thus, as it is bout the Twelve Minor Prophets, it should be treated as a proper noun and have the proper title. Kari Hazzard  ( T  |  C ) 22:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Relating to this, no-one seems to have done anything, but it this article is not about the people, it's about the books. Actually, I regard it as one book, and prefer to call it "The Twelve", but the collection is usually called "The Minor Prophets" in English. StAnselm 14:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea to me. I support Twelve Minor Prophets.  Nyttend 13:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So what happened? I see that "Twelve Minor Prophets" redirects here instead of the other way around -- why hasn't it been moved? Aristophanes68 (talk) 14:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Moved. Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:29, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Jewish division
In the Hebrew Bible the writings of the minor prophets are counted as a single book, in Christian Bibles as twelve individual books.

In the JPS version of the Tanakh, each of the minor prophets is given his own book. This is, I think, the principal version used in English. Statements about what the "Jewish" version is on wikipedia seem almost always to be from an Orthodox POV. john k (talk) 23:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Citation in section Book of the Twelve
This entire section is indebted to the work referenced at the section's end (Coogan). There should be more footnotes in the section to make clear the extent of its indebtedness. Prinplup (talk) 01:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Prophetic oracles
The 'Composition' section currently includes the following phrase: "The noteworthy exception is the Book of Jonah, an anonymous work containing no prophetic oracles..."

I imagine there are many reasons why this particular wording was chosen. However, I propose - for conciseness - "no prophesy..." rather than "no prophetic oracles..." >MinorProphet (talk) 23:52, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "Prophesy" in the Jewish Bible / Old Testament doesn't have the same meaning as "prophetic oracle", which is problematic because the latter is the more usual English meaning of "prophesy". --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:16, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thankyou for your reply. Are you drawing a difference between 'prophesy' and 'prophetic oracle'? The Bible prophecy article appears slightly incomplete in this respect.


 * A quick glance at - for example - Prophecy, Prophets appears to show that prophecy (sp?) is spoken by prophets specially commissioned by G-d: "Reception and declaration of a word from the Lord through a direct prompting of the Holy Spirit and the human instrument thereof. Old Testament: Three key terms are used of the prophet. Ro'eh and hozeh are translated as “seer.” The most important term, nabi, is usually translated “prophet.” It probably meant “one who is called to speak.”
 * This approach to prophesy is contrasted with Oracles on the same website: oracles are directly communicated by G-d to individual people, either a answer to an actively sought request ('decision oracles'), or those that came without any request, ('pronouncement oracles'). Both these are further explained.
 * I may have misunderstood, so could you perhaps explain what is meant by 'prophetic oracle'? >MinorProphet (talk) 15:48, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Plus, the Book of Jonah seems to say that the gist of G-d's command which Jonah failed to deliver is in fact given - if only in passing - in the narrative: I would say this is very much in keeping with the definition given in "Prophecy, Prophets" above, and which seems to directly contrast the definition of 'oracle' quoted above (which you may not agree with). >MinorProphet (talk) 16:11, 27 August 2016 (UTC)


 * On further reflection, although my OP was merely a suggested alternative to the phrase 'prophetic oracle', I'm not sure that that the words "The noteworthy exception is the Book of Jonah, an anonymous work containing no prophetic oracles..." mean very much at all, since:


 * 1) It is not at all clear to me what a 'prophetic oracle' is. Could you perhaps cite some examples? Is it like a 'pistil stamen'?
 * 2) In my view, the book of Jonah involves at least the elements of straightforward prophecy, even if the text doesn't contain actual quoted speech (and you could reply that since the man never actually uttered any words of woe in Nineveh there was strictly no "speaking" as defined in Prophecy, Prophets, since my old mate Jonah was certainly no "seer", more like a peeping tom): yet why else include the text among the duodecimo-type-collection?
 * 3) On the other hand, I find little in the Book of Jonah which could be called oracular, unless you count G-d's speaking to the whale and its well-known - nay, famous - emetic effect as a pronouncement oracle. Maybe he was hoping to found a school (hmm, should that be pod?) of φάλαινοπροφητεία >MinorProphet (talk) 10:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Can anyone give a precise quotation from the cited reference or explain the term 'prophetic oracle? Otherwise, I intend to delete the entire sentence.>MinorProphet (talk) 20:49, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Or reduce it to a footnote concerning "other sources" or "some say" etc. >MinorProphet (talk) 21:20, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The term 'Failed prophet' springs to mind (or soul) >MinorProphet (talk) 23:58, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

There are two problems with the phrase "containing no prophetic oracles". First, nowhere is "prophetic oracle" defined; and second, there is in fact a very short oracle (or prophecy, or whatever you want to call it), in chapter 3 verse 5": "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown". I think the way around the problems is to remove the phrase: the real difference of Jonah is that it is a story rather than primarily a prophecy or set of prophecies. The two sentences then become: "Scholars usually assume that there exists an original core of prophetic tradition behind each book which can be attributed to the figure after whom it is named.[6] The noteworthy exception is the Book of Jonah, an anonymous work containing no prophetic oracles, but which is a story about an eighth century prophet who is briefly mentioned in the Books of Kings (2 Kings 14:25)." Adpete (talk) 04:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The Leon has Roared
I have removed the following added book from the "Further Reading:


 * Peels, H.G.L., & S.D. Snyman, The Leon Has Roared. Theological Themes in the Profetic Literature of the Old Testament, Eugene Oregon 2012.

It does not meet the criteria for "Further Reading" given in the WP:MOS under Further reading, to whit: "A large part, if not all, of the work should be directly about the subject of the article." The subject of the article is The Twelve Minor Prophets, which is not the primary subject of the book. The book might be appropriate under an article covering more generally the subject of biblical prophecy.

Also, to answer a question from the editor who added the book, I have read portions of the book. I would also note that the book is edited by Peels and Snyman (they are not the authors), and that the title (as added) has at least three typos that should have been obvious. Nor do I understand why the first editor was linked to "Eric Peels", since that is not the primary editor's name. --EncycloPetey (talk) 12:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Should table say "uncertain" rather than "disputed" ?
For the ages of Joel, Obadiah and Jonah, the table says "disputed". I think that "disputed" is the wrong word; the ages of many books of the Bible are disputed for various reasons. But in this case, it's not so much a dispute, but there just isn't much information to begin with. So I think something like "uncertain" is a better word. Adpete (talk) 21:18, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree. The article on the Book of Obadiah contains the word "disputed" but "uncertain" would apply equally well. The article on the Book of Joel lists several possibilities. The wording in the article on the Book of Jonah, "sometime between the late 5th to early 4th century BC" would fit well in this table. - BobKilcoyne (talk) 03:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Not so sure now - I looked a bit on Book of Jonah (and added a "Date" section), and that definitely qualifies as "disputed", because it purports to be about the historical Jonah of 2 Kings 14:25; so you've got this dispute where the traditionalists think it's 8th century BC while more critical scholars place it later. Perhaps Joel and Obadiah qualify more accurately as "uncertain", but my concern is I'm looking at it from a Protestant perspective (no date in the book, therefore date is uncertain) - but the Catholic, Orthodox or Jewish perspective might have a "traditional" date, so if Protestants ignore that traditional date it is still a dispute. So I'll need to research it more. In any case, there's no rush to change it. Adpete (talk) 22:07, 25 October 2021 (UTC)


 * OK I have looked at all of the books' articles, and quite a number are disputed. I think a better solution is to have the column say "Traditional date", and have no mention of dispute in that column: Jonah should be 8th century, and Joel and Obadiah should be "uncertain", unless these books have a "traditional" date which I am unaware of. Then, if someone wants to put in the time and effort, we could another column called something like "Generally accepted date", which can give the range of dates accepted by scholars, both traditional and critical. Adpete (talk) 22:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Rename? (again)
I think the title "Twelve Minor Prophets" is a poor title, because I don't think anyone calls it/them that! The Jewish Bible calls it "The Twelve". Protestants call them "The Minor Prophets", and as far as I can tell, Catholic and Orthodox Christians also call them minor prophets. "Twelve Minor Prophets" seems to be a compromise name that is not appropriate to anyone. I suggest something like The Twelve (Hebrew Bible), because it is only in the Hebrew (Jewish) Bible that they are a distinct group. Adpete (talk) 03:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)