Talk:Twelve leverage points

Following posted by 68.74.221.5
''I love this page! In technology, the above system[s] is known as integration or integrated automation. An integration is a number of different subsystems interrelated and interdependent in such a manner as to make a previous nonexistent primary function possible such as threshold enabling and automation. Computing is really a computing matrix; a hardware/software integration enabling the Graphical User Interface. All electronics is integrated.''

''Donella Meadows is viewing through the lens of a design engineer and transcribing it as an easy to understand principled process. She has opened 'cause and effect' in a much larger Window. She is taking us to the next level of Logic: "Context Driven Dynamic Automation." In electronics, limit switches are used to start and stop processes. In Pneumatics and DDR [direct digital control] proportional monitoring and control is used for threshold enabling and threshold limiting continously.''

''We could learn a lot about a lot if we could grasp Donella Meadows' concepts and frame our studies by them. Bio-automation would enter a whole realm of understanding. People relationship matrix schemes such as sowing/ reaping would be seen as The Law of Equal Distribution applied to a Context Driven, Output Oriented Matrix. I love logic! Thank you Donella for sharing and thank you Wikipedia for making it possible for someone like me to have access to it. Have a great day!''


 * The main author of that page thanks you as well. Glad it pleased you :-) Anthère

Expert verification
The examples don't seem to mesh with the leverage points that well. I'm skeptical that they were written by an expert on the subject. This article needs review. 142.36.54.157 (talk) 16:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right. The original article had much clearer examples.  The example for number 9 makes no sense at all.  The clearest example used by Meadows for that point in the original article was that of an old building with a shower on the 4th floor and the hot water tank in the basement.  When the hot water tap is adjusted, it takes 30 seconds before the water temperature changes in the shower.  This delay makes it difficult to properly tweak the temperature to the desired level.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.202.192 (talk) 23:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

What sort of expert?
Since it has been suggested that an expert comment on this, I want to ask what sort of expert? It seems to me this is a report of ideas published by Meadows. Agree or disagree, the appropriate way to check would be to compare the page to the original publication of those ideas. The page is about Meadow's leverage points, not "System scientists uniformly agree that this is the way to change a system." The page seems to be an accurate representation of Meadow's concepts. (Personally I feel just these points may be key to solving a lot of human society's problems, but that is besides the point.) Jarrender (talk) 08:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

These appear in her book "Thinking in Systems"
Her book "Thinking in Systems" dedicates a chapter to these 12 points. That book can be used to verify these. I hope to get time to do so. Lbeaumont (talk) 17:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Needs third-party sources, not primary sources
I'm a fan of system dynamics, but Wikipedia is simply not the right place to summarize pieces of research or opinion, no matter how cool they may seem to some editor. See the WP:V policy. As the template I just added notes, '''This article needs references that appear in reliable third-party publications. Primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject are generally not sufficient for a Wikipedia article. Please add more appropriate citations from reliable sources.''' Without those, it is eligible for deletion. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 03:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

the stature of Meadows on system simulation and analysis
Meadows is one of the authors of The Limits to Growth with 30 years of credibility world-wide. Will we also remove that article? Is this political or applied science that we are to consider here ? Global warming denials ?

Consider the current project known as the A-21 Campaign or the minor events that led to widespread aboriginal gangs in present-day western Canada. In the latter case, distributing the worst offenders across the prison system to reduce violence in one prison lead to the rapid spread of gang membership across a vast territory.

What she offers is perhaps better seen as a heuristic suggested by an expert. Now where has it proven useful? Compare the "technical" background of past cybernetics advocates.

In that vein, we risk seeing this article deleted but retaining Bright green environmentalism?

G. Robert Shiplett 01:50, 22 June 2011 (UTC)