Talk:Twenty-fifth Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan

Requested move 3 June 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn amidst reasonable concerns about the numbering scheme. No such user (talk) 08:30, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Thirty-first Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan → Twenty-fifth Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan – When amendment is tabled in the parliament, it is numbered counting the failed amendments as well, when it is passed, the numbering only counts the passed amendments, this was tabled as 31st but passed as 25th, we have a redirect page in the way of this move. Please see this for reference. Sheriff &#124; ☎ 911 &#124; 19:58, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:43, 3 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Best discuss this move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:43, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Who contested and on what ground? Sheriff &#124; ☎ 911</b> &#124; 21:53, 3 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The text of the page still says 31st amendment and nothing about the number being changed and why. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:57, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I was hoping to change the text of the article after changing the title, thought there is no point changing the text of the article if title has something different. <b style="color: blue;">Sh</b><b style="color: red;">eri</b><b style="color: blue;">ff</b> &#124; <b style="color: black;">☎ 911</b> &#124; 22:05, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Please close the request, I am withdrawing. <b style="color: blue;">Sh</b><b style="color: red;">eri</b><b style="color: blue;">ff</b> &#124; <b style="color: black;">☎ 911</b> &#124; 23:15, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Sources seem to conflict on this. The source you linked says 25th amendment, but others say 31st. Hopefully the full text of the amendment act (and not just the bill) will be made available to settle this. Avg W (talk) 02:56, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Please explain your reasoning for withdrawing. Avg W (talk) 03:09, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * A lot of confusion, we will have to move all of'em plus sources and Pakistani government do not have the numbering right, sources and Pakistani government who are calling it 25th, they are counting 9th, 11th, and 15th which also did not pass to make up to 25th but not counting six proposed amendments prior to this amendment. If we do not count those three that I mentioned then this amendment is 22nd not 25th and not 31st but we will not find a source for it to call it 22nd. I wish Pakistani government does the same as United States and do not number the amendments prior to them passing, that is the only way to avoid this confusion, at the moment I think we should keep the things as is. <b style="color: blue;">Sh</b><b style="color: red;">eri</b><b style="color: blue;">ff</b> &#124; <b style="color: black;">☎ 911</b> &#124; 03:20, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that like the Amendments to the Constitution to Ireland, the amendments to the Pakistani constitution retain the numbers of failed/unpassed amendments and move on to the next number when passing another one. I use the example of Ireland because the situation is very similar, for example, the 25th amendment was not passed and the subsequent amendment, the 26th, was. The numbering includes amendments that haven't passed. (Though, to make things more confusing in that example, there are a few cases of the same number being associated with differing proposed and passed amendments!) I don't see how the Pakistani government sources can be wrong, the text of the legislation is decided by them. They have determined the numbering, we cannot change that. This article may be the 22nd amendment to be enforced in Pakistan, but that is definitely *not* the amendment's name, and the Pakistani government has evidently not chosen to name amendments in this way. The National Assembly of Pakistan has this listed as the 31st amendment, so this should be the name for now I think. If/when the assented to act is published and the name differs, we can discuss that then. Avg W (talk) 04:01, 4 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 15 June 2018
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 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. wbm1058 (talk) 17:12, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Thirty-first Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan → Twenty-fifth Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan – Re-opening move request. The full text of the act which was assented to has been posted here http://www.na.gov.pk/uploads/documents/1528788450_669.pdf and the final version is referred to as the Twenty-fifth amendment. I think this is reasonable evidence that the article can be changed to reflect this. Avg W (talk) 03:37, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The link I have posted above seems to clear up the earlier confusion. Avg W (talk) 03:40, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I do not understand why they are counting 9th, 11th and 15th to make up to 25th? It goes against common sense, I am not sure if we should move it to Twenty-fifth or Twenty-second. WP:COMMONSENSE urges to ditch the source if it goes against common sense. <b style="color: blue;">Sh</b><b style="color: red;">eri</b><b style="color: blue;">ff</b> &#124; <b style="color: black;">☎ 911</b> &#124; 09:47, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Nowhere is the act called the twenty-second. The full text of the act has the name of the amendment which is what should be used. You are free to disagree with the numbering, but you cannot change it on wikipedia just because you do. As I have pointed out above, Pakistan is not the only country with a constitution numbered like this. Avg W (talk) 11:47, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you have any answer or logic why those three amendments which I mentioned above are being counted to reach to number 25 despite those not getting passed? I am just discussing to come to a better conclusion otherwise I requested this move initially. Check this and count the number of amendments passed and let me know what number you get? Maybe you are able to find an answer to this maze while I am not. If we count all of the amendments passed and not passed both then the number is 31, if we do not count the ones which were not passed then the number is 22, how are they coming up with number 25 or could it be that 9th, 11th and 15th were actually passed and we have them listed not passed wrongly? <b style="color: blue;">Sh</b><b style="color: red;">eri</b><b style="color: blue;">ff</b> &#124; <b style="color: black;">☎ 911</b> &#124; 13:25, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You are correct that there are 22 passed, and that the 9th, 11th, and 15th were not passed, however, the names of the amendments as they were assented to do not adhere to a consistent numbering system. It appears they counted amendments not passed in their numbering system up until this point where they have changed it. The 25th-30th proposed amendments are unusual in that they were introduced in parliament in a very short time frame. For what it's worth, the bill as passed through parliament was referred to as the 31st amendment, but the bill as passed by the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa assembly is passed as the 25th. I do not know if the change was made before sending it to the KP assembly or if the KP assembly changed it upon receiving it, but it is possible that this is where the change in numbering happened. I do not want to speculate too much, however, as it stands, the amendment is the 25th according to the Gazzette of Pakistan. I propose that the proposed 25th amendment be moved to an article called "Constitution (Twenty-fifth Amendment) Bill" or similar and the passed 25th amendment be called "Twenty-fifth amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan". Have a look at Thirtieth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2011 (Ireland) and Thirtieth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland - very similar situation, the articles have been distinguished by identifying one as a proposed bill and the other as a passed amendment. 2601:14D:4300:3F28:8950:F122:852D:1780 (talk) 19:05, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * If we are going this path, the other one should be called exactly as its official name Constitution (Twenty-fifth Amendment) Act, 2017 as I moved it earlier before changing my mind! <b style="color: blue;">Sh</b><b style="color: red;">eri</b><b style="color: blue;">ff</b> &#124; <b style="color: black;">☎ 911</b> &#124; 20:57, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Support: Alright I am convinced! <b style="color: blue;">Sh</b><b style="color: red;">eri</b><b style="color: blue;">ff</b> &#124; <b style="color: black;">☎ 911</b> &#124; 21:21, 15 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Support עם ישראל חי (talk) 14:56, 29 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.