Talk:U.S. Route 60 in Oklahoma/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Dough4872 (talk · contribs) 15:06, 28 September 2012 (UTC)


 * GA review (see here for criteria)

 I will place the article on hold for fixes to be made.  Dough 48  72  15:06, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * Do not need to continually use "then" to describe progression of route.
 * The sentence "All three highways then exit first Enid, and then Garfield County." needs to be reworded.
 * The sentence "The highway then has an interchange with US-75; US-60 turns south and overlaps US-75 before splitting off to the east once again, leaving Bartlesville and, soon, Washington County behind." is long and sounds awkward.
 * The sentence "Three miles (4.8 km) east of Nowata,[4] the highway passes through unincorporated Coodys Bluff, where it crosses the Verdigris River;[10] 5 miles (8.0 km) east of there, the highway junctions with SH-28." also needs to be redone.
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * There are several unreferenced statements in the route description, a simple map reference should work here.
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * Some details about the physical surroundings should be added to the route description.
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * I have made some alterations to the prose as requested. Then, then, was thinned out to appear no more than once per paragraph. What exactly are you finding that's unreferenced? WP:V (policy) only requires references for "any material challenged or likely to be challenged"; on a road article, this is mostly going to be length figures and local names. I don't think it's very likely that someone is going to challenge that US-60 passes through Vici, or that US-60 and US-281 cross the North Canadian north of Seiling, since this is verifiable by any map that shows the area in the appropriate level of detail or by physically visiting the feature. Can you identify specific sentences that are likely to be challenged that are not referenced?


 * Regarding "physical surroundings", what specifically are you wanting here? There are no named/really identifiable features in the vicinity of US-60 that are not noted, it doesn't pass through any mountain ranges, etc. On an article of this length I'm not sure it's appropriate to note every stand of trees the highway enters and leaves, since that's going to bog the article down in tons and tons of that sort of thing. As it is now the route description is 16KB by itself. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:14, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding the references, a good article usually has citations for every statement in the prose. Someone who is not familiar with Oklahoma may challenge the routing of US-60. A simple map reference will verify that US-60 follows its prescribed route through Oklahoma. Regarding the physical surroundings, you do not need every single detail. In describing the rural areas, it would help to simply say something like "US-60 passes through rural areas of farmland." In the larger cities, it would help to mention where the road passes homes or businesses. Also, if there are any notable attractions along the route it would be nice to mention them in the route description.  Dough 48  72  18:26, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I may be misinterpreting WP:V, but the section labeled WP:BURDEN would seem to contradict your opinion on this issue, requiring that only those statements likely to be challenged be cited, not every sentence. The M-553 article, which recently passed FA, does not have a citation for every sentence. References are not given for general geographic statements, but they are given for things that are not obvious to someone in a car, like the former location of the air force base gate and the person a side road was named after. Perhaps we should contact another reviewer with experience in reviewing road articles to weigh in on this topic?
 * Back on the topic of physical surroundings, isn't entering an urban area by definition passing between homes and businesses? Is a rural area not almost synonymous areas of farmland? I fear that repeatedly stating this for every switch between urban and rural land use will bloat the route description and make the article suck. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 08:49, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Rural areas vary depending on the part of the country. It could be farms, woods, deserts, or mountains. By simply mentioning US-60 passes through areas of farmland will give the reader an idea of what US-60 looks like. I also left a message at WT:USRD for someone to give another opinion on the references.  Dough 48  72  16:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I plan to comment within the next few hours. --Rschen7754 16:59, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

What I usually do for the Route description is put two general references at the end of each paragraph. Typically, one is the state highway log and the other is a mapping service. The mapping service supports the satellite imagery and the state highway log supports stuff that cannot be gleaned from the mapping service or that the labeling of the mapping service is likely to get wrong. I will use other references on an as-needed basis, attached to the specific sentence, if I feel a statement is likely to be questioned or it cannot easily be defended by pointing to one of the general references. One reason I put the references at the end of each paragraph is (1) if a sentence does not say anything controversial, no one is likely to check whether a specific sentence is being supported by a specific reference except at ACR or FAC; and (2) visually the lack of reference citations is more noticible at the end of a paragraph than in the middle of a paragraph. That being said, my usage is more of a defense mechanism and force of habit. I do not think referencing everything is necessary. In fact, referencing every detail is overkill. However, people vary in what they consider controversial; some people think the fact that a road crosses a river requires a reference.

Another point of contention in this review is the reviewer's insistence on the Route description describing the "rural areas of farmland" through which the route passes. Reread the quote in the previous sentence; sounds ridiculous, right? It is ridiculous trying to describe vernacular landscape features that repeat hundreds of times. I do not buy the argument that the reader needs to be told what rural areas looks like; that is what other articles are for. Rural areas are boring 99% of the time. Farmland looks almost the same everywhere. Out on the great plains, the fields are square and have circular green areas, but that is hard to see from the ground. Rural areas are boring whether the route is 2 miles long or 200 miles long, but using that level of detail consistently makes going through the Route description much more arduous for the reader.  V C  18:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not asking for excess detail, maybe one sentence saying the road runs through agricultural areas of the Great Plains, preferably at the beginning of the route description.  Dough 48  72  18:12, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The defacto standard is for all paragraphs of a route description to be cited, even if it's just a map. "rural areas of farmland" is ridiculous; the reviewer has been told multiple times that they are overdoing it with the requests for more scenery, and it's starting to become detrimental. --Rschen7754 21:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * In your opinion, is the standard of referencing followed in the article at present sufficient for GA? Each paragraph has at least one reference, but each of these references are for lengths given in the route description or local names. However, the state map is used as a reference 14 times. Is that enough, or is it required to add another ref to the map at the end of each paragraph? —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:59, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I added some more refs. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 15:45, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I am now satisfied with the article. As such, I will pass it.  Dough 48  72  17:26, 1 October 2012 (UTC)