Talk:UEFA Euro 2008 squads

Gabulov to Dynamo Moscow
Gabulov to Dynamo is official and has been official for quite some time:
 * Can you provide an English reference for this? According to UEFA, Gabulov doesn't move to Dynamo until after the tournament. – PeeJay 00:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You can cling on to your old UEFA article all you like, but the deal has been completed. If the team roster on Dinamo's website isn't good enough for you, here is the official announcement about the completion of the transfer by Dinamo, the official announcement of the completion of the transfer by Amkar, and the confirmation that the transfer has been completed by Sport Express, Russia's biggest sports media outlet.
 * Trouble is, I can't understand Russian, so I have no idea what those links say. However, the most reliable English source we have states that Gabulov has not actually moved to Dynamo yet, although he has agreed to join them, and I'm sure the Russian sources say something similar. – PeeJay 08:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Your personal limitations shouldn't get in the way of the correct information... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.3.132 (talk) 20:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is the team roster from Dinamo's official website IN ENGLISH which includes Gabulov.

Netherlands
Marco van Basten has named his provisional squad:. I'll try to get round to adding the squad here soon, but if someone else wants to add it feel free :) JACO  PLANE  &bull; 2008-05-6 20:13
 * Done. – PeeJay 22:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks! JACO  PLANE  &bull; 2008-05-6 22:04

KNVB site gives differing information on caps for Netherlands players at http://www.knvb.nl/oranje/selectie/. Caps and goals should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.187.12 (talk) 10:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Austria
Squad for Training camp is out. 

TOR/GOALKEEPERS

 * GRATZEI 	Christian 	19.09.1981 	SK Sturm Graz 	- 	-
 * MANNINGER 	Alexander 	04.06.1977 	AC Siena 	26 	-33*
 * MACHO 	Jürgen 	24.08.1977 	AEK Athen 	13 	-11*
 * PAYER 	Helge 	09.08.1979 	SK Rapid Wien 	15 	-19*

ABWEHR/DEFENDERS

 * DOBER 	Andreas 	31.03.1986 	SK Rapid Wien 	3 	-
 * GARICS György 	08.03.1984 	SSC Napoli 	11 	1
 * GERCALIU 	Ronald 	12.02.1986 	FK Austria Wien 	10 	-
 * HIDEN 	Martin 	11.03.1973 	SK Austria Kärnten 	48 	1
 * IBERTSBERGER 	Andreas 	27.02.1982 	TSG 1899 Hoffenheim 	12 	1
 * KATZER 	Markus 	11.12.1979 	SK Rapid Wien 	10 	-
 * PATOCKA 	Jürgen 	30.07.1977 	SK Rapid Wien 	2 	-
 * POGATETZ 	Emanuel 	16.01.1983 	FC Middlesbrough 	25 	1
 * PRÖDL 	Sebastian 	21.06.1987 	SK Sturm Graz 	8 	2
 * SCHIEMER 	Franz 	21.03.1986 	FK Austria Wien 	4 	-
 * STRANZL 	Martin 	16.06.1980 	Spartak Moskau 	43 	2

MITTELFELD/MIDFIELD

 * AUFHAUSER 	Rene 	21.06.1976 	Red Bull Salzburg 	49 	10
 * FUCHS 	Christian 	07.04.1986 	SV Mattersburg 	16 	-
 * HARNIK 	Martin 	10.06.1987 	SV Werder Bremen 	7 	1
 * IVANSCHITZ 	Andreas 	15.10.1983 	Panathinaikos Athen 	37 	6
 * KORKMAZ 	Ümit 	17.09.1985 	SK Rapid Wien 	- 	-
 * LEITGEB 	Christoph 	14.04.1985 	Red Bull Salzburg 	17 	-
 * SÄUMEL 	Jürgen 	08.09.1984 	SK Sturm Graz 	9 	-
 * STANDFEST 	Joachim 	30.05.1980 	FK Austria Magna 	29 	2
 * VASTIC 	Ivica 	29.09.1969 	LASK Linz 	46 	12
 * WEISSENBERGER 	Markus 	08.03.1975 	Eintracht Frankfurt 	29 	1

ANGRIFF/FORWARDS

 * HOFFER 	Erwin 	14.04.1987 	SK Rapid Wien 	2 	-
 * JANKO 	Marc 	25.06.1983 	Red Bull Salzburg 	3 	-
 * KIENAST 	Roman 	29.03.1984 	Ham-Kam 	5 	-
 * KULJIC 	Sanel 	10.10.1977 	FK Austria Wien 	20 	3
 * LINZ 	Roland 	09.08.1981 	SC Braga 	29 	5
 * MAIERHOFER 	Stefan 	16.08.1982 	SK Rapid Wien 	- 	-

Matthew_hk  t  c  16:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Poland update
Leo Beenhakker will scratch six players today (8 May) from the provisional squad he announced earlier. 26 players will travel to training camp in Germany. Coach announced also no additional players will be called-up. source. - Darwinek (talk) 12:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

// Better source: http://sport.onet.pl/0,1264200,1744997,wiadomosc.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.46.5.145 (talk) 15:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Czech Republic squad
Coach Brückner announced the final squad. You can find it at the official association website http://www.fotbal.cz/scripts/detail.php?id=31169&tmplid=1033. Feel free to update the article. - Darwinek (talk) 14:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Why Rüştü Reçber (TurkeY) have 128 Caps in national team. My information he have 116 caps
Why Rüştü Reçber (TurkeY) have 128 Caps in national team. My information he have 116 caps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.252.18.216 (talk) 11:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * They are 114. --necronudist (talk) 12:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Provisional squads references
Should we keep it or get rid of it? User:Necronudist seems to think we should get rid of it, saying that none of the other squads articles have it, so why should this one. I couldn't disagree more, as I think that this information is quite interesting, and since it is sourced, there is no reason to actually get rid of it. Opinions please. – PeeJay 14:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be kept, it's sourced and provides useful information should a reader want to investigate into players who dropped out/were in provisional squad. I'm sure other squad articles used to have it. HornetMike (talk) 14:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Did other squads articles used to have this info? I'm not sure. If it was removed, then it should be restored. Otherwise, we could probably research it. – PeeJay 14:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying that. I'll explain as I've done on your talk page: My opinion is that this stuff is useless, 'cause it don't affect the tournament in any way. Virtually, an head coach can preselect players two years before, and can preselect 100 players if he wants (Domenech preselected something like 50 players). Are called provisional squads 'cause they aren't Euro08 squads. If tomorrow Cassano got injured and Inzaghi replaces him, well this affect Euro08 squads and the tournament itself, and therefore should be mentioned.

Plus, remember that other squads articles used to have it, but since the final squads are announced, they've been properly removed. --necronudist (talk) 14:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly sure the first provisional Euro 2008 squad wasn't actually announced until the end of April (it was Austria, IIRC), but I wouldn't have known that without the information that you are deleting. I'm very pleased that you've been bold about this edit, but since you now have opposition to that edit, please leave the info in the article until the dispute can be resolved. – PeeJay 14:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You wanna change a de facto standard, so you must argue for its change. Please note I wrote virtually, just to say how useless is to consider it. It could happen...nobody ever preselected 50 players before Domenech. :-) --necronudist (talk) 15:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep it. It provides a useful insight into the different methods of squad selection used, and describing the selection processes breaks up the bare list. Oldelpaso (talk) 15:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we should remove these players because they don't take part to the tournaments: the articles is about Euro 2008 squads, adding players who don't take part to the Euro would be adding some confusion.--Latouffedisco (talk) 16:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Neither the references are, 'cause they refer to pre-tournament things. It's like adding a reference on a club page saying that x and y took part at the summer training but weren't included in the first team squad. --necronudist (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd say get rid of it, without provisional squad info, the article seems more clearer and neat. The provisional squad members are never officially registered to UEFA as a team member. However, I reckon injury replacement players must be noted in the article. Moreover, the information about players that has been called up into the provisional squad is more relevant to the individual national team article rather than the EURO 2008 squads article. I've recently edited Italy national football team article and put Montolivo on the recent call-up list as provisional EURO 2008 squad (see Italy national football team. Well, this is just my opinion, feel free comment. 121.44.23.153 (talk) 16:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

If it's 23 man squads it's fine, if they are 27 man train-on squads I would be sceptical. Also it would need official verification. Alexsanderson 83  16:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Read through some very good references and they do indeed have official verification. Alexsanderson  83  17:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Are they official? No9shirt (talk) 17:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment - For clarification, I'm not saying we should list the players who were in the provisional squads amongst the 23-man squads. That would just be daft. All I'm saying is that we should keep the info on how the squad was selected at the top of each section. – PeeJay 17:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My fault for not keeping up with the news. They are the officially verified squads. Alexsanderson  83  17:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, the ones currently listed are the official squads for Euro 2008. However, you're not addressing the issue at hand. Should we keep the info on the squad selection process for each nation or not? – PeeJay 17:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, an interesting one. I'm not too sure, all I'll say is I won't remove them if they are added, at the same time I won't be adding the information myself. If someone inside the 23 is replaced due to injury at this point I would say that is worthy of inclusion. Alexsanderson  83  17:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Post-23 list replacement are out of discussion. We're debating on references. I think they are useless 'cause they ''refer to pre-tournament things. It's like adding a reference on a club page saying that x and y took part at the summer training but weren't included in the first team squad.'' It's not an Euro 2008 issue, it regards pre-tournament phase. Neither they're part of the Euro 2008 squads. --necronudist (talk) 18:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can there be some sort of compromise, like put the info in the notes and references section? Chanheigeorge (talk) 20:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * as far as they don't regard the tournament itself neither tournament squads, a separate article should fit. But I think it would fail WP:NOTABILITY or whatever. --necronudist (talk) 21:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Why would such an article even be required? This information adds an extra bit of bulk to what would otherwise be a simple list of players. It has been reliably sourced, and it is in the appropriate place, so what the heck is the problem? – PeeJay 22:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

If you haven't understand yet that are called provisional 'cause they aren't the article's title squad... I surrender. Do what you think, guys. I've said what I had to say 4 times. Can't go further. --necronudist (talk) 22:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Club belonging - Club on loan from or on loan at
Why are the player listed by the clubs who hold their economic rights and not those who hold the playing registration (i.e. the club the player is on loan from instead of the club he is on loan to). I think it should be the other way around (the club on loan at with the club on loan from in the footnotes) as players are shown on Uefa's official site. What club would for example Javier Mascherano have had if he took part when his rights were with MSI - club MSI with a footnote that he was on loan at Liverpool? Sebisthlm (talk) 20:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * For most European leagues, this is the close season, therefore loans are over. There might be a case to be made for the Russian/Swedish/Norwegian leagues (any others involved?), but this would cause consistency issues. Kevin McE (talk) 06:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm well aware of the European close season, but if you would like a technical approach I would imagine that even the players whose loan deals are running out in the summer and who have left their clubs still technically belong to the clubs they are loaned to, re-registrations are only allowed after July 1 so the loan deals run out June 30. However, I think it's beside the point for us to try to determine whether a player still belong to a certain club or not. The key issue is why we should differ from UEFA on the (weak) basis of who holds the economic rights. What about Cassano, who was on loan at Samp from Real, a loan deal that has now become permanent. He has probably not set his foot in Madrid since January so stating that his current club is Real shows that our difference from UEFA is purely misleading semanthics. Sebisthlm (talk) 13:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe (I couldn't refer to a source) that return from loan is not considered a transfer, and therefore can happen during the embargo on transfers. Certainly it is the norm on club sites to show loans as finishing after the last game of the season.  I note that ITV commentary this evening referred to Bouhlarouz still being a Chelsea player.  I certainly see the attraction in being consistent with the UEFA listing, and I don't know the source that the originator used.  Maybe the team announcements from the respective FAs should be the determiner.  Kevin McE (talk) 21:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, I think we are discussing semanthics. I think the ITV commentary were discussing the economic rights (that he belongs to Chelsea and are due back if not Chelsea decides to sell him) and not necessarily the precise current club. The bottom line is which are supposed to be the current clubs when a tournament such as the Euro 2008 is played in between seasons. I think it should be the club as of the end of the 2007-08 season and not the club at the start of the 2008-09 season. For loan deals till the end of season I think it's doubtful (and frankly beside the point) if a player in fact returns to his parent club before the tournament. In any case, if he returns he is unelligible to play for his parent club (i.e. Guillermo Giacomazzi is not available for the Serie B play-off with Lecce). Sebisthlm (talk) 22:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the club for 2008-09 is irrelevant. I don't think the team that he last played for, nor whether he has visited the training ground of hi official employers recently, is necessarily relevant either.  What we should record is the club that a player is registered at on the first day of the tournament.  This is not mere semantics: it is accurate reflection of the exact current situation, and an encyclopaedia has a different standard of this than a chat in the pub.  It seems that neither of us have authoritative info on the exact date on which registration reverts to the parent club when a loan finishes.  Therefore we need to use a source that has some authority.  If we have access t the club listings used by all the national FAs when they announced their squads, I would prefer that, failing that, as I have said, the  UEFA site is an appealing source.  Kevin McE (talk) 06:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Sebis, it's a worldwide standard used everywhere. --necronudist (talk) 09:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In 2006 FIFA World Cup, there is some one-month loan likes Carson, so that's the origin of the argument. Some FAs also announced Modrić already a Hotspur player. The footnote of 2008-09 is to prevent ip user keep on changing the club section which the deal agreed before the start of tournament. And for loans, to follow the standard, i think use on loan to. According to FIFA, the player can register for three clubs in one season (from 1 July to 30 June) but only appeared for two. In fact Guillermo Giacomazzi is not available for the Serie B play-off with Lecce, is Italian practice. But in England, you could see at the end of 3-month loan, the player returned to mother clubs and appeared as bench or even played, like Ross Turnbull. Matthew_hk   t  c  06:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * They do it also with footnotes... no use for a brain, you know. About loans, are there different customs? ok, so let's use the UEFA/FIFA standard. --necronudist (talk) 08:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, UEFA do not seem to apply a consistent standard. Granqvist is listed as a Wigan player.  Kevin McE (talk) 17:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * One single error? It happens... --necronudist (talk) 17:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Question is: do we list clubs the player played for in the 2007-08 season (the last club of the season), or clubs the player belongs to? First is the UEFA (and I'd say worldwide, since I've always seen that) standard, latter is the "wikipedia standard". If you guys decide to approve the second case, remember that there are also co-ownership (I put a note on Borriello, but it's something like avoiding the issue). --necronudist (talk) 17:57, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

But how about the player played for two clubs in a season? Sometimes they want to loan out to gain more appearances in order to secure the national team place. But in fact they played both well. Matthew_hk  t  c  06:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * do we list clubs the player played for in the 2007-08 season (the last club of the season) [...] --necronudist (talk) 08:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for starting a discussion and the just suddenly disappear (I've been out of town a couple of days). I think that Kevin McE's analysis is correct. However, I think we have authoritative club info from Uefa's official team squads. If no reliable sources show other info than Uefa's, we should stick with their interpretation of club belonging. Of course I didn't mean that which club is listed as current is semanthics, It was trying to judge when a loan deal is over that I think is irrelevant. Necronudist brings up an excellent point in the Italian co-ownership deals. In Italy a player can be co-owned by two clubs while on loan to a third. This further illustrates my point that we have to go by (last) playing club and not owning club. Sebisthlm (talk) 08:57, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Player representation
Why player representation is different from this on uefa.com? --Valodzka (talk) 09:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)