Talk:UMkhonto weSizwe

Torture camps
What about the torture camps MK had for dissidents?!
 * Sources? WhisperToMe (talk) 01:31, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

There might be something on the Truth Commission report if anyone has time to look. I defiantly remember a FEW cases of MK fighters torturing SOME detainees held outside S Africa was confirmed by the Truth Commission, although there was no proof of it being systematic or allowed by the Lusaka leadership. Kingal86 (talk) 20:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh someone's already looked Kingal86 (talk) 21:07, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

New DVD released?
http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3015&art_id=vn20070724111227573C399572

Is this MK?

Citation
Citation! BillMasen 00:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Pronounciation
Is there anyway we can get a pronounciation on the site for the name? Either with IPA or with a voice link. I'm afraid that i don't pronounce it correctly. Intrepidsfsu 05:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Abbreviation
Why is the abbreviation "MK" rather than, say, "UweS"? – Kaihsu 16:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It's the sound of first 2 syllables 86.147.99.94 (talk) 00:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Lack of history
This article lacks any evidence for the period 1960 to 1980. Can anyone help expand this? Googolman 09:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
The article contains a lot of value assumptions that don't seem very npov, like the phrases "the legendary Chris Hani" and "more enlightened members of the National Party". I've nothing against Chris Hani, and maybe there were somehow enlightened members of the np (ok, not in my opinion, but that's why we have npov ;-) ), but shouldn't we avoid having these kinds of non-neutral adjectives being applied to people and organisations etc? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.99.94 (talk) 00:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Hymn/song
I stumbled upon this video on youtube and searched for additional information on the hymn/song of MK on wikipedia and with google, I could not find any information about it, not even the lyrics. anybody could add it with sources, if possible? I'm not a regular editor so I would not know where to start. 130.251.167.63 (talk) 09:16, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Spelling?
Just a quick question. Is this the way that the name is usually spelt?

In proper Nguni orthorgraphy, it should be written "umKhonto wesiZwe". The main difference is the writing of the possessive concord and final noun as one word, because morphologically and grammatically it is indeed one word.

Any thoughts? Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 16:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

MK abreviation revisited
Somebody above asked: Why is the abbreviation "MK" rather than, say, "UweS"?

I've heard it told that "MK" was in fact the secret codeword used by the banned underground, and that it derives from the initials of the famous Indian leader and pacifist M.K. Ghandi. Although Ghandi is well known for his pacifist ideology, it's less well known that he also supported armed struggle under certain conditions. Long story. Some other time. Sources are available if anyone's interested. Communicat (talk) 21:50, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Dates?
when was the exact date of foundation? 41.240.6.109 (talk) 12:45, 25 March 2011 (UTC)tobszn

South African Communist Party
It is more accurate to say that MK was the armed wing of the South African Communist Party. 196.2.126.173 (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

MK's popular influence
Die Antwoord song "Evil Boy" features the lyrics "take your dirty hands off my Umthondo we Sizwe" meaning "penis of the nation", a clear pun on "Umkhonto we Sizwe"

DAWN
I have 29 PDFs of the monthly publication produced by Umkhonto we Sizwe. They are dated circa 1980, and have good historical value. I cannot access the ext link at this article, so I don't know if they're available there. I see no copyright info on these PDFs. Can I upload them? If so, to enwp or commons? As PDF or should I convert to JPG? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:44, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

I uploaded a sample under sharealike license: Quite interesting, I think. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:56, 21 June 2012 (UTC)


 * certainly, very interesting. I think your forum is wikisource. Wizzy&hellip; &#9742; 08:18, 21 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you Wizzy. I went to http://wikisource.org/wiki/Main_Page, but only saw the English link which brought me back to Wikipedia. Strange. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:08, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

(The) MK
Is it correct to say 'MK' or 'the MK'? The article mixes them. Rothorpe (talk) 22:46, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Old vandalism
I have noticed that many facts in the article are incorrect due to a vandalism edit in 2012 by the user Cirrus2. I have corrected some of the errors, please help with the others. This is the link to the diff. Liiiii (talk) 12:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Use of word "terrorist" in info box
An recent edit putting the word "terrorist" back into the info box was accompanied by the comment "MK used terrosrist tactics bombs ect, not all terrorism is bad MK was good, type only refers to tactics".

If you define "terrorist" as anyone who uses bombs etc, then yes, MK fits your definition. The problem is that this word "terrorist" has no generally accepted definition. It is a value-laden label.

Quote from WP:Terrorist on the project page Manual of Style/Words to watch

"Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution."

It's ok to state in the article that MK was described as "terrorist" by governments of South Africa and the USA. But I don't see the justification for using this value-laden label in the info box, in WP's own voice.

Calling them "good" in the info box would be a mistake too. Even if they fit your definition of "good". Because "good" is a value-laden label too.Kalidasa 777 (talk) 01:11, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Endgame
Some reader feedback: there is mention of plenty of stuff from the 80s, and a line in the intro about this organisation being integrated into the regular military post-Apartheid, but there must be quite a story to be told there. How did MK figure in the negotiations that led to multi-racial elections, unbanning of the ANC etc? What where the practicalities of the integration, was there resistance from within the military since this was former enemy joining the ranks etc? Wyddgrug (talk) 02:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 1 one external link on Umkhonto we Sizwe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090221095404/http://www.anc.org.za:80/ancdocs/history/rivonia.html to http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/rivonia.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 22:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Umkhonto we Sizwe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150320024433/http://anc.org.za/show.php?id=3430 to http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3430
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120515235447/http://www.info.gov.za/otherdocs/2003/trc/5_3.pdf to http://www.info.gov.za/otherdocs/2003/trc/5_3.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 06:46, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Unexplained revert
I noticed this edit in June, which reverted to the version from 17 July 2017 (comparison). I don't understand why this was done, since the edit summary didn't explain it. I meant to raise the issue at the time but wasn't sure where. ♫ ekips39 (talk) ❀ 01:14, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Information on major operations missing
The book "Umkhonto We Sizwe - The ANC's armed Struggle" by Thula Simpson gives an overview of the entire history, as well as an accurate timeline of minor and major operations. Specifically significant in this history were the almost simultaneous attacks on the fossil refinieries and industrial plants in Sasolburg and Secunda by Umkhonto special units, that caused an enormous economic damage to the Apartheid Regime, but avoided human casualties at all costs. The article doesn't reflect the importance of these operations, but instead focuses exclusively on actions, which were performed by independently acting operators, who acted outside of Umkhonto's chain of command and which caused collateral damage.

Link to Google Book Preview of the Chapter on the Secunda and Sasol attacks: https://books.google.de/books?id=6gxbDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT474&dq=secunda%20sasol%20umkhonto&hl=de&pg=PT474#v=onepage&q=secunda%20sasol%20umkhonto&f=false

Passive tense
Is there a reason the section for the 1980s is all written in the passive voice? It's ambiguous whether the bombings and other violent actions were undertaken and claimed by the MK with the consent of the ANC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.10.83.48 (talk) 11:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Denis Goldberg - no mention ?
I believe that Denis Goldberg was the initiator of the idea of a militant wing to the ANC, and was also responsible for training of thr 1st MK members , who went on to become the leaders of MK and trained new intake. 41.114.130.99 (talk) 10:45, 4 March 2023 (UTC)