Talk:USS Plunger (1895)

Duplicate Articles?
Is this not the same ship as the USS Plunger (1897)? I cannot find any extant information that differentiates these two as separate ships. If so they should be merged, or one article deleted. Garyvp71 (talk) 17:29, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Plunger (experimental submarine)
This articles are about the same subject. Revent talk 07:42, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Proposed merge with USS Plunger (1897)
Also the same ship Revent talk 07:44, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Comment
I agree the articles should be merged but I strongly prefer the title "Plunger (experimental submarine)". Having "USS" in the title is wholly inaccurate as the title "United States Ship" is reserved for commissioned ships of the US Navy and, as Plunger was never commissioned, she should not have the title.

Articles merged
I have merged "Plunger (experimental)" and "Plunger (1897)" into "USS Plunger (1895)". (Although I think I messed up the redirect on the 1897 article; maybe someone can repair that, if it's worth worrying about.)

—Dilidor (talk) 17:10, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Proposed move to American submarine Plunger (1895)
I'm proposing to move this article to "American submarine Plunger (1895)". I also think "Plunger (1895)" is acceptable. "American submarine Plunger (1897)". I also think "Plunger (1897)" is acceptable. As the vessel was never commissioned in the USN, USS should be removed from the title. Also, it appears the launch year of 1897 should be used instead of the year ordered (1895); for most ship articles either the launch year or the year the ship entered service is used. RobDuch (talk·contribs) 22:53, 13 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Moved to Plunger (1897). RobDuch (talk·contribs) 18:49, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

The rule that only ships commissioned into the navy were to have the prefix USS was not created until 1907, when Executive Order 549 of the eighth of January as issued. The rules were different prior to that, as there was no standard for referring to United States navy ships. They were referred to by a number of different terms prior to then. Ships launched prior to then are still referred to as “USS” because “United States Ship” that was one of many terms used to identify navy ships since at least the 1790s. Anasaitis (talk) 19:38, 12 March 2021 (UTC)


 * It would have been more appropriate to wait a few days for a response and discussion before implementing the move. I do not believe USS is correct in this instance, as the vessel never served in nor was accepted by the USN, and never got underway except possibly for engine trials. Related to this, I've found references to a number of Civil War gunboats that served in the USN, were never commissioned or referred to as USS, and are not listed in references or in DANFS as commissioned vessels. So leaving out USS for uncommissioned vessels is entirely appropriate, as DANFS only lists commissioned vessels. The unofficial "Register of Ships of the US Navy" lists Plunger, but notes the lack of commissioning. Commissioning was a formal process prior to 1907 and its presence or absence is consistently applied in references, even if your contention that "USS" was not a consistent term prior to that is correct. Also, see my post above regarding the date. Year of ordering is generally not used on Wikipedia, I believe year of commissioning or entering service is preferred. In this case the year of launching is the best alternative. RobDuch (talk·contribs) 22:55, 12 March 2021 (UTC)


 * You have again moved the article (but surprisingly not the talk page) without replying to me or directly addressing my concerns. The "USS" might be tolerable, but the date of 1895 is not. RobDuch (talk·contribs) 05:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)