Talk:Udasi

As this page is dedicated to a Religion, one that is not Sikhism, I feel it is important we listen to voices of the Udasin.
Ram Ram, my little name is Ram Muni and I am a child of the Udasin sampradaya only 2 years in age, Panchayti Bada Udasin Akhada, having received Guru Diksha at the 2019 Prayagraj Ardh Kumbh Mela. As this page is dedicated to a Religion, one that is not Sikhism, I feel it is important we listen to voices of the Udasin. Few articles of Udasin origin exist other than scholarly works involving Sikhism with the Udasin being a footnote. The Udasin as a group are tied together by devotion to the Founder Sri Chand. Individually some Mahants follow the SGGS while others put their heads down to Hindu Deities. The Udasin should speak for themselves, not scholars who are subject to information biases. The Udasin have long been at odds with the major Sikh orders and much of the international Sikh community who value an authentic and separate Sikh identity. They strongly reject the idea that they, like Buddhism are actually branches of Hinduism as many Indian Hindus believe.

Requested move 30 May 2021

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 18:04, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Udasi → Udasin –

I have Emailed Wiki to get the name changed as the official name is Udasin not Udasi. I will include links to Indian news papers as well as court judgments that cite the correct name. I have also included a link to the wiki page that describes how Indian names should be dealt with.

 Rammuni BadaUdasin (talk) 22:15, 30 May 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Zoozaz1 talk  13:02, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Fixed malformed move request. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 23:47, 30 May 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:08, 29 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose: All the English-language sources cited by the article that I could check online use "Udasi" or "Udasis" rather than "Udasin". It may be appropriate to move the page to "Udasis" though, for consistency with, e.g., Sikhs and Jews. Rublov (talk) 18:31, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

As of 2021, all major newspaper in India use "Udasin": the Times of India, the The Hindustan Times. So do government ministers and courts. Of the sources in the article, are more than 20 years old, and all are non-Indian sources which should be given less weight per WP:TITLEVAR. }}

Expand below to see a more in depth look at my arguments with many more links.Rammuni BadaUdasin (talk) 22:52, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

also see "Use commonly recognizable names" in the guidelines listed below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles#Name_changes

Support: Many of the English-language sources cited are 20+ years old and within them only small sections are actually devoted to discussing the Udasin tradition and themselves reference sources 50-80+ years old. I could fill this page up with links to court cases involving disputes over land/Temple rights between Udasin priest. Udasin is used in all of them, not "Udasi", however I'll just list a few including one paper from Harvard discussing the Udasin within the context of the Kumb Mela planning.

I believe the archaic name "Udasi" should not be used in this instance as all Modern English publications from Indian sources, as well as official court documents refer to the group as Udasin as I will list more below. English is in fact an official Language in India. It would be quite cynical to exclude India's own modern English language publications in favor of English publications from non-Indian sources that continually rely upon archaic text dating from the time of British imperialism.-see

With a little research, you will see all of the English-language sources cited by the article are then citing text that are well over 150 years old in some cases. In the case of "The Construction of Religious Boundaries" a simple scroll down the page and you will see the author is citing many unpublished Ph.D-thesis. The book's publisher even defines it as a "major reinterpretation of religion and society in India" on the introduction. Below are more court cases

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/50765652/ https://indiankanoon.org/doc/936172/

Here are some more recent academic sources that use the modern term "Udasin"

-page 8 "search Udasin and you will find over 20 hits "

For a very easy to understand example of how this can lead to confusion,or some misunderstanding go to google maps and search "Udasi" while looking at India, and you will be directed to someplace in America, however if you search "Udasin" you will be shown many places of worship in India.......

11:06 AM, June 12, 2021Rammuni BadaUdasin (talk) 11:30, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Removed duplicate section per . Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 07:00, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry @rotideypoc41352 I waited some time and reading the move request page I saw it said "Requests are generally processed after seven days. If consensus is reached at or after this time, a reviewer will enact the request. If not, the request may be re-listed to allow more time for consensus to develop, or the discussion closed as "no consensus". See Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions for more details on the process."

I thought it would be ok to re-list it since it had been over 2 weeks, not sure how things work around here exactly. What is the next step, per Wiki's Use commonly recognizable names-Other

"In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies, and notable scientific journals. A search engine may help to collect this data; when using a search engine, restrict the results to pages written in English, and exclude the word "Wikipedia". When using Google, generally a search of Google Books and News Archive should be defaulted to before a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources (exclude works from Books, LLC when searching Google Books[7]). Search engine results are subject to certain biases and technical limitations; for detailed advice on the use of search engines and the interpretation of their results, see Wikipedia:Search engine test." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Search_engine_test#What_a_search_test_can_do,_and_what_it_can't

A simple search engine test of "udasi" only shows Wikipedia or Wikipedia type sites, some with a direct copy paste of This Wiki article. The next most results are a mix of (1) redirects towards the travels aka "udasis" of the Guru Nanak and (2) Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak CommitteeSikh aka SGPC "Sikh Orthodoxy" propaganda. Such propaganda been used to Legally disenfranchise unorthodox Sikhs and they have tightly controlled the narrative of Sikh History ever since as I will explain below. It started with the the first Gurdwara reform movement back in 1925, where the Udasin and other old unorthodox traditions within the Sikh community were excommunicated under British law by the SGPC. The Udasin were branded "Non=Sikh" by the newly formed SGPC leadership and to this day are not considered Sikh's by the modern SGPC assembly. This discrimination continues, and the fundamentalist faction has all but taken over. The most recent example being the 2016 amendment to Gurdwaras Act of 1925.

https://www.mha.gov.in/sites/default/files/201621.pdf

This effectively striped an estimated 7 million, almost 1/3, Sikhs' of their rights as electors from participation in the SGPC elections. The SGPC elections held every 5 years with 170 seats being contested. The president, secretaries, and other positions of high office within the SGPC are then nominated based on a majority vote taken by the seat holders. The SGPC are the lawfully recognized body of governance for the Sikh religion in India. They have also been responsible for overseeing all Punjabi publications related to the history of Sikhs and are ready to sue anyone who contradicts their narrative in English.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/chandigarh/sgpc-objects-to-history-book-contents-seeks-action-against-author-long-dead/story-qoR5Fp6C83YG7xID7gur5M.html

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/amritsar/golden-temple-mats-sgpc-to-sue-amazon/articleshow/67171902.cms

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/international/story/19930915-professor-of-sikh-studies-pashaura-singh-refuses-to-honour-akal-takht-decree-811562-1993-09-15

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/sgpc-to-get-sikh-history-rewritten-forms-fivemember-panel/1061199/

Back to the search Engine test, A search for Udasin, will present less Wiki related or Wiki like articles. This includes when searching for news, and images, the term "Udasin" returns more relevant results each time. As stated when searching in maps, "udasi" returns nothing in India while "Udasin" will direct you to the major centers of worship within India. The only thing left to explore is the simple fact that "udasi" is a transliteration of the Punjabi word as opposed to "Udasin" being the modern Indian term. It's not to different from the fact that, in American English, 'color' is the most common spelling. In British English, 'colour' is the preferred spelling. However it stands to reason that "Udasin" being a term originating from India, that it's modern and most recognized Indian spelling, "Udasin" be used over the Archaic, albeit scholarly "udasi" transliteration. Another good example is the use of the archaic term "Lamaism", still being used in scholarly articles/publication as opposed to the commonly known/modern name "Tibetan Buddhism"

Ram Muni- 9:28 AM Wednesday, June 16, 2021 UTC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rammuni BadaUdasin (talk • contribs) 09:29, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Unless there is some coherent objection as to why this page ought not be moved to Udasin I will make a request for this to be closed in 7 days. I dont understand why there is any controversy, given all the facts I stated above. It should be updated so that anyone reading this article can easily understand that "Udasin" is not a extinct religion, but a living tradition that can be seen in many places across India. If one searches for "Udasi" as this article calls it, they will find no results. This could easily lead to a misunderstand causing people to believe that no such tradition exist at the present, despite the "Udasin" being one of 14 major Hindu groups recognized by the, Akhara Parishad, the top Hindu religious organizational body in India. To note "Udasin" is as stated many time above, the legally recognized name by all legal authorities within India and the name in common use across English language newspapers throughout India.

Ram Muni-10:45 AM UTC Wednesday, June 16, 2021
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.