Talk:Uherský Brod shooting

"In the country's peacetime history"
As the 1975 event happened in Czechoslovakia (albeit still within peacetime in the land now known as the Czech Republic), does it deserve to be called the worst in "the country's" peacetime history? &#39;&#39;&#39;tAD&#39;&#39;&#39; (talk) 06:46, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is particularly problematic, as both the unfortunate events took place within the borders of today's Czech Republic, and they are comparable. --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 08:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)


 * OK &#39;&#39;&#39;tAD&#39;&#39;&#39; (talk) 07:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, if we wanted to be technical, Czechoslovakia was a federation since 1960, with Czech and Slovak (until 1990 "Socialist") Republics as its constituent parts. Cimmerian praetor (talk) 14:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Motive
According to media, the most probable motive seems a mix of the man's mental illness and perceived attempt of the state to take the guns away (in connection with the mental illness). Apparently, he decided to conduct a revenge on society in general. I am not sure how to write into the article. Source: http://zpravy.aktualne.cz/domaci/strelci-prodlouzili-v-lednu-zbrojni-pas-rodina-byla-proti/r~ec509042bdab11e4a7d8002590604f2e (already in the article) Can anyone help? Cimmerian praetor (talk) 16:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

misdemeanor
misdemeanor should be changed to either petty offense or infraction - throughout the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vaultsuit (talk • contribs) 08:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I am not sure about it. The dictionary translates "přestupek" as misdemeanor. But I am open to hear the reasons for change. Cimmerian praetor (talk) 15:04, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

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CONSENSUS DISCUSSION
OK, let's discuss these edits, which I believe violate synthesis and speculation. Check diffs as needed. Quis separabit? 13:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, particularly the following was deleted for not good reason:


 * In the Czech Republic, pentagenarian and sexagenarian men are the group with the highest suicide rate, as well as the one that commits the largest murderous acts. Many of these men became economically unsuccessful after the Velvet revolution: both murderers in Frenštát and Brod were long-term unemployed, blamed society for their failures and had frequent conflicts with their neighbors.


 * Media further pointed out that in the atheist Czech society, pubs and restaurants play a very important societal function. Targeting a restaurant in the Czech Republic thus has the same symbolism as does targeting a church in other countries.


 * Both information are relevant to the article (most mass murders in US are committed by teenagers, in Western Europe by 30-40 yo males), they also point to the motive (without expressly speculating about it), the symbolism is also clear. No speculation in either. In addition, all information was taken from the linked source - a weekly that deals with the shooting in articles taking over 8 pages - no synthesis was made by me.


 * I have some understanding for deletion of the Charlie Hebdo and Copenhagen mention, even though those were also directly taken from the linked source.


 * Also, Quis separabit?  should make his head. First, the reason for deletion was speculation and synthesis, now it is NPOV. I am puzzled, what happened to the speculation? Why is it NPOV now? Cimmerian praetor (talk) 15:03, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Reply

 * "Also, @Rms125a@hotmail.com should make his head" -- I don't know what this means.
 * I corrected the text to reflect speculation, not NPOV, not that that really changes anything. The point of this exercise is to solicit the opinions of other editors, I would point out. Quis separabit?  17:26, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * What I meant is that you first said that you deleted because it is likely speculation. When I point out that it is all well sourced, then you write it is NPOV. Still, you are not pointing out in which way is information about the fact that both killers were from high suicide/murder risk age, that both were long term unemployed and had conflicts with other people not neutral. Also how is the information that the Czech society is atheist and that pubs serve important societal role NPOV, similar to churchers elsewhere, NPOV. I don't know how to react to you since you have put no basis of your arguments, only your feelings regarding NPOV on the table. Cimmerian praetor (talk) 17:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Forget NPOV, focus on synthesis and speculation . Quis separabit? 17:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * No, I won't forget it. You are just making it up as you go.


 * As regards synthesis - as I said, I haven't written anything that wasn't directly in the sources.


 * Speculation - please be precise in pointing out what exactly is speculative about the content you deleted. It is hard to answer something that you don't say. Cimmerian praetor (talk) 18:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I am not making it up as I go. I have held that the text in question comprises synthesis and speculation. I erroneously added NPOV, which I withdrew as it was not included in my original opposition, and you are clinging to it because you think it is some kind of loophole. I think we should wait for other (uninvolved) editors to express their opinions re this matter. I will abide by majority consensus. Quis separabit?  18:14, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Not loophole, but bad faith trolling. Still, you have not put a single argument forward apart from "I think it is synthesis/speculation". You haven't stated what makes it synthesis or speculative. Please do so. Cimmerian praetor (talk) 18:23, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

All of the deleted content I've seen definitely sounds like speculation. Unless we have something that can definitely tie the gunman's motives to that content, I would be in huge support of that deletion. Libertarian12111971 (talk) 01:28, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Do not add in speculated motives. If an actual motive is revelead it needs to be from a reliable source. Everything that deleted should have been deleted. Benbuff91 20:52, 9 March 2015


 * How exactly is, for example, this a speculation??? Media further pointed out that in the atheist Czech society, pubs and restaurants play a very important societal function. Targeting a restaurant in the Czech Republic thus has the same symbolism as does targeting a church in other countries. Cimmerian praetor (talk) 21:33, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Connection to other mass murder
I am not challenging the sources or anything, but there is no indication of how both incidents are related. I don't know the Czech language, nor do I have an online translate tool, so can someone find a reason why these mass murders are linked and put it in the 'Background' section? Even if the reasons are actually not disclosed yet? That kind of information is unclear. Libertarian12111971 (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It was making more sense with all the content that has been deleted and is considered speculation as per discussion above.


 * ''Czech media and experts immediately linked the Uherský Brod massacre to a mass murder that took place two years before in Frenštát pod Radhoštěm, another Moravian town lying 90 kms northwards. In the attack, a 57-years-old man attempted to blow up a block of flats after having been ordered to vacate his flat that had been foreclosed by creditors. During night, the murderer first blocked both exits from the building, and then removed and opened the main gas supply into the building's corridor. A neighbor disturbed the murderer, who proceeded to set the gas on fire before the gas could spread throughout the whole building. Still, the explosion and subsequent fire was large enough to demolish part of the building, killing the perpetrator and 5 other people immediately, wounding 11 others, one of whom died on 17 February 2015.


 * In the Czech Republic, pentagenarian and sextagenarian men are the group with the highest suicide rate, as well as the one that commits the largest murderous acts. Many of these men became economically unsuccessful after the Velvet revolution: both murderers in Frenštát and Brod were long-term unemployed, blamed society for their failures and had frequent conflicts with their neighbors.


 * Kovář was probably further inspired by Charlie Hebdo attack and 2015 Copenhagen shootings in seeing how large worldwide publicity both of the attacks received, which apparently led Kovář to contact media during the act.


 * Before the murders, Kovář's family became worried about his mental state to the point that they contacted authorities in connection with his possession of gun license. Just four days before the murders, Kovář had received a police request to present a new health clearance, otherwise his license would be revoked. Before entering the Družba restaurant, Kovář visited at least two other venues. Those, however, had fewer customers, and Kovář left them immediately after entering.


 * Media further pointed out that in the atheist Czech society, pubs and restaurants play a very important societal function. Targeting a restaurant in the Czech Republic thus has the same symbolism as does targeting a church in other countries. ''


 * This is based on a series of articles from the most read weekly newspaper that deals with the fact that most Czech murderers - as well as people who commit suicide are 50 - 60 something year old long term unemployed men. Blažek was actually the largest mass murder since the 1993 dissolution of Czechoslovakia up until the shooting. For reasons that evade me, there seems to be consensus that pointing out to the fact that Czech media and experts put the shooting on the background of the fact that the man is actually from the part of population that is most likely to commit such an act - as well as suicide - is considered speculation and thus was removed. And here we are left with Blažek making introduction to the background without the other information.


 * Regards, Cimmerian praetor (talk) 21:29, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

REPLY (sorry, don't see how to post proper reply)

I do agree the article made more sense prior to the deletions. I also find the "social status" link between the two Czech incidents legitimate and based on facts. I've got reservations to the short one-sentence Hebdo and Copenhagen reference. I'd remove that as speculative if only for the use of the words "probably" and "apparently" in that statement.

Czech my native tongue btw. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.209.142.242 (talk) 15:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)