Talk:Ukrainian Canadian internment

Untitled
I've partially reverted this edit. Women and children were not interned, but chose to stay near their family members (in fact, I believe they stayed in facilities near the two camps mentioned, and not in them). It bears mentioning that immigrants, especially those labeled "enemy aliens" had a harder time keeping jobs during a recession, but saying that most of them "had been fired from their jobs for 'patriotic reasons'" is not neutral. And why remove the factual comparison to Canada's other well-known internment? —Michael Z. 2006-10-27 00:02 Z 

Again, I'm partially reverting this pair of edits by an anonymous editor. The edit removes information supported by citations, as well as one citation and an ISBN-link for another. It replaces this with un-cited information. Since this is a controversial and often-misunderstood subject, please cite a verifiable source to support your edits.

I find disturbing the removal of an academic reference, which apparently doesn't reflect this editor's point of view, and the apparently misleading invocation of the Geneva Conventions (see below). If you want this article to support a point of view, you can only succeed by having it fairly represent all points of view and letting readers draw their own conclusions. Trying to misinform or obscure information can only harm your objectives.

You would think someone using an IP address from the educational institution where Doctor Luciuk teaches would know better!

Questions raised:


 * "The internment did include some Canadian-born British subjects and naturalized citizens, including the last known survivor, Mary Manko"

Were these only minor children? I don't think it's fair to equate them with the intended subjects of the internment, who were required to carry identification, register at police stations, or report to internment camps, but it was significant that some were in their families, and accompanied them to the camps. We need more information about Mary Manko's activities in helping Canadians learn about the internment.


 * "Many of these internees were used for labour in internment camps, contrary to the provisions of the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit the use of POWs for forced labour to the profit of the interning power."

We need a reliable reference saying that these were considered POWs under the Geneva Conventions of 1864 ("for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field") and 1906 ("for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea"). I suspect that this is not the case, since civilians were the subject of the 1949 treaty ("relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War"). —Michael Z. 2006-11-03 16:08 Z 

Contradiction
[moving discussion from the article —Michael Z. 2006-11-10 20:10 Z ]

This article contradicts itself: First it states that "the interned did not include Canadian-born (nor) Canadian citizens." In the next sentence it states that the last known Canadian-born survivor of the internment camps is Mary Manko.

The Ukrainian Canadian internment included both Canadian born and Canadian citizens, who, exactly like the Japanese Canadians interned in World War II, had their belongings and property confiscated, were separated from their families, and were interned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.97.244 (talk • contribs).


 * If you read more carefully, you'll see that Mary Manko was not an internee, but one of the family members who accompanied them at the internment camps. Perhaps the wording needs clarification.


 * The Ukrainian Canadian internment was not like the Japanese Canadian internment: it didn't strip Canadians of their citizenship, label them as enemies, deport them, nor split up Canadian families. As far as we know, no homesteaders or other established settlers were interned. —Michael Z. 2006-11-10 20:19 Z 

BS?

 * '' Many of these internees were used for labour in internment camps. This was in violation of the Geneva Conventions, as the studies of Professors Kordan and Mahovsky have demonstrated.

The First Geneva Convention only applied to the treatment of battlefield casualties. The other conventions were not yet written.

I had a quick look through Kordan and Mahovsky's book, and by my reading, they explicitly state that the Hague Conventions (1899 and 1907) did not apply to civilians, but because of the assumptions they made about how civilians would be treated, the Canadian treatment of Austro-Hungarian internees went against the spirit of the conventions (this seemed to be a bit of a reach to me, but I'm no expert). They also stated that civilians were treated worse by most other belligerents in the war.

To me, this article seems to be misrepresenting the source cited. —Michael Z. 2007-06-04 05:38 Z 


 * I've removed the second sentence from the article. Please don't restore without quoting the source. —Michael Z. 2007-06-04 06:11 Z 

Include controversy in the article
I notice that Luciuk's pamphlet (and Martynowych's response) were removed from the article with the comment "removed revisionist source". Perhaps Luciuk's pamphlet should be mentioned, since it is so often referred to, and has formed so much of the commonly-held opinion on this issue. Martynowych's letter may still be a good link to include anyway, since it provides a lot of perspective on the situation, from a historian familiar with the primary sources.

I'm saying that this topic is controversial, and maybe this article's coverage should include the controversy. This might help stabilize it in the face of the ongoing tug-of-war about specific facts, or at least help give the reader perspective. —Michael Z. 2007-06-04 06:06 Z 

non-ukranian internment
I understand the fervor of Ukrainian-Canadian community, admire and applaud their persistence to bring the issue to the attention on the highest levels of responsibility and recognition. As a non-Canadian I cannot help wondering why this wiki page is not expanded to the broader theme that the endowment fund was dedicated to, the recognition of Canada's First World War Internment. Yes, Austro-Hungarians, Germans and Poles are mentioned in passing on this wiki, and may have been the minority affected, but ... ?

The wikisite on Auschwitz comes to mind, it isn't divided into wikisites on the internment of Jews, socialists, homosexuals, gypsies as far as I know. I would just welcome a more inclusive wikisite Canada's First World War Internment. - ok, so why am I not doing it? I've done my bit, dedicated quite some time to find refs and find and interlink various connected pages here, but I dont feel able or "called to" expand the site. I write this in the hope that others feel the same way, feel the need to broaden the subject beyond the ethnic lens. It's an important topic, and I think the Canadian experience serves as a model for survivors of more recent or even present day internments, that have not won an apology by their perpetrators yet, no reparations, no wider recognition, are struggling with taboo.--Wuerzele (talk) 20:19, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Non-standard citation
I removed this line: "See: 'That Never Happened' documentary and Canadian Encyclopedia for resources," from the text, as citations should be linked as in-line footnotes, as per our usual procedure. Also, the line "Much existing Canadian infrastructure was built by this enslaved Ukrainian labour" needs a citation. (Perhaps one of the above.) Thanks. Laodah 22:30, 18 January 2022 (UTC)