Talk:Ukrainian Dorian scale

Ukrainian Dorian scale vs Misheberak scale
There should be less of a distinction in this article between the two scales considering they are identical (1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7).

How it currently is might be confusing for people who are not able to quickly realise that "C D Eb F# G A Bb" and "D E F G# A B C" are parallel.

Ideally the 'Misheberak scale' section should be renamed 'Use in Jewish and Roman music'.

220.101.84.46 (talk) 00:30, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Hey, it's me again, but now on my own account.


 * I'm going to implement these changes, but if anyone disagrees it would be good if they let me know.


 * Omillas (talk) 09:16, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Nikriz, not Hijaz
The quote from reference #3 (Gottlieb, Jack (2004). Funny, it doesn't sound Jewish, p.221, n.65) which says that this scale is similar to the hijaz makam is not accurate. The Ukrainian Dorian scale is similar to the nikriz makam. How do we go about saying this in the article? --kupirijo (talk) 14:23, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Where are we getting "Ukrainian" from...?
Can anyone point me to a Ukrainian folk song or otherwise that uses this scale? I've been listening to Slavic music for a few years now and I don't associate this with Ukraine. Bulgaria, Romania, Makedonia,Hungary, sure. I mostly hear melodic and harmonic minor in the music of Ukraine, so far. To be honest, I thought this scale would be found in "Hungarian minor," but that article describes something not often heard in Hungarian music.

I find this all very confusing, and seeing that this language is making it into Novation manuals and educating the next generation of musicians, I think getting the story straight is important. If an honest mistake has been made, it should be corrected.

Who named it "Ukrainian"? Can this be defended by actual regional musical practices? If not, this page should be renamed or deleted altogether. 2601:647:C900:B6C0:A9E3:80B6:FB5A:88D8 (talk) 03:08, 18 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree this article is poorly written but the term Ukrainian Dorian has been in use for decades. The fact that the logic of the name is debatable is neither here nor there and not a reason on its own to delete the article. Dan Carkner (talk) 21:05, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I found the reason for the name during the course of my research to revise the article. It came from Idelsohn, who knew the mode was popular in Ukrainian Dumy ballads; although of course we know it was much more widely in use than that. Dan Carkner (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No one is asking to delete the article but the label of "Ukrainian" is cultural erasure of the geographic indigenous ethnicities that actually employ this style, of which Ukrainians do not. This is a balkan style that is prevalent in Romania, Moldova, Hungary, and Bulgaria.   The fact that a jewish person living in Ukraine heard and associated the style with Ukraine does not make this Ukrainian.
 * The scale is called a "dorian scale" and is present in the geographic balkans under vstious names, including Romanian Minor or Romanian Dorian, frok which kelzmer is pulled from. 2603:6080:4F00:3F0:FB7D:1520:C0F9:7017 (talk) 09:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Significant revision to article
Hi everyone, I was finding the article kind of a mess before, so I spent a while coming up with a draft that heavily revised it with what I think is a more coherent organization and a lot more academic sources. See this edit. However, I admit I'm stronger on music history than on music theory, so if I got any of the theory wrong or if someone wants to add back some of the musical descriptions I removed, feel free. Dan Carkner (talk) 03:41, 8 December 2023 (UTC)