Talk:Ukrainian dance

Untitled
I have a generalized question here, so anyone please feel free to add something or respond. I was wondering if we really should be putting the names of individual ensembles in the article, as I can see a day coming soon when we will have 10 or 20 people editing the page and throwing around their respective groups' names and creating a bit of clutter. My suggestion would be to keep it down to Virsky, and perhaps Shumka for North America as they are a professional company. Beyond this we could perhaps list the groups in a seperate link location at the bottom, divided into countries.Otherwise the situation could evolve to where everyone wants their troupe mentioned and it will reduce the professionalism of the article. What does everyone think of this idea? (Also, who put that picture up? Do they hold the copyright to the image?  Wikipedia's rules are very strict that only copyright holders can use their own images.  So we need explicit permission before putting photos up). Cheers. --RileyLewis 05:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The photo was taken by me. I couldn't find anything that would be legal to take, so I just used my own. If we can find something better it would be great. The Virsky page has some since they were taken before copyright mattered in USSR. Mrrria 09:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The photo needs to change soon. Not a good representation of Ukrainian Dance as a whole. More like a local school performance. --tufkaa 03:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Added dance company links to the bottom. I removed Virsky's because I've been to the site, and I don't know if it is official or not. It says it's official, but it doesn't seem like it, beyond the name. Can anyone help me out on this one? Is it paid for and run by Virsky, or merely a fan? --RileyLewis 05:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Hutsul, Lemko, and Boiko extended family clans from the Carpathian / Rusyn region, rather than the names of actual districts? Otherwise a very good article. .Kevlar67 23:03, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, they fall within various Oblasts. However, usually when people talk about these 'regions' I think they are referring to the traditional ethnic regions and not the modern-day provinces.  But good point, we have to try and remain as accurate as possible. --RileyLewis 05:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The "Regions"/"Districts" section is inaccurate and will have to be updated.--tufkaa 03:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've altered the Regional styles section to more accurately reflect what can be found Ukrainian dance. Ukrainian folk dance reflects an idealized depiction of various ethnic groups and cultures in Ukraine in its regional dances. We should keep this separate from actually defining the regions, which is done in separate articles we can link to.--tufkaa 17:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to format new text correctly.--tufkaa 03:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, here are my goals:--tufkaa 06:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe now that Avramenko should be split off from Development in North America into his own section located after Modern History
 * Development in North America could possibly end up split between US and Canada
 * Regardless of the above point, at least Shumka, Cheremosh, and Peter Marunczak need to be added to Canada's story
 * Regional section, when filled out, could possibly become its own article
 * Need to begin section on popular dances (not limited to region): Hopak, Kolomeyka, Tropotianka, Kozachok, etc.
 * Kuban Cossacks desperately missing from the Australian section, which could also be expanded
 * South America should have a section

Pre-Modern History Section Changes
None of it is referenced so why should any of it be true? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.145.103 (talk) 08:12, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Modern History Section Changes
I edited the history section to add the initial wave of immigration to North America in the 1890s. Someone should also take the time to do some research on Avramenko and get a paragraph in on his effort to import the original folk dances to the Americas. I also cleaned up the section a little bit, and removed some things that weren't supported or couldn't be verified (ex. VIrsky's performance at the '67 Expo being the event that caused other dance troupes to modernize their style). --RileyLewis 05:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice job to whomever added the Avramenko section. It's good to include that. --RileyLewis 15:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I radically altered this entire topic, focusing mostly on the History section. More edits to come. --tufkaa 03:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Development in North America Section Changes
I will add more information with regards to the developments in the US. Additional post-Avramenko development in Canada should written by someone.--tufkaa 20:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Should Australia, England, and South America be added to this section (ecompassing all areas outside of Ukraine) or should there be a separate section? Either way, accurate Australian, English, and South American histories are welcome.--tufkaa 20:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Post-Avramenko, there was no single person in Canada that took a lead role in developing Ukrainian dance, although there are a few notables in each region. Shumka played an important role, especially in Alberta, and they are the largest and most travelled group in Canada (they are a paid professional company) and I know they have a book out with their history. This would be a good source for some information on Ukrainian dance in western Canada post 1950 or so, if I remember correctly. My local university has one copy, I'll see if I can get it. --RileyLewis 17:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Regional Section Changes
I cleaned up the listed regions as well as adding the Lemko region. I removed the ones only mentioned at the bottom to reduce clutter until more information can be brought in. As well, I removed the "most well-known dance" additions as this could be construed as an opinion and may vary in different locations. I also added a few different commonly-used ways of spelling the regions in North America. --RileyLewis 05:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

These will need to be drastically altered as well. --tufkaa 03:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I began my edits today. I've listed 2 additional regions (descriptions need to be added), altered the first, and added a carefully worded addition about Gypsy dances.--tufkaa 21:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Poltavshchyna is an incorrect term for the dances listed under that section. I understand that the use of this incorrect nomenclature is prevalent in many schools, however Poltava costuming, music, and dance has many influences of metropolitan Kyiv, and is not the same as general Central Region. Explain? I will alter back to Central Region tomorrow if there isn't an explanation --tufkaa 02:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)--tufkaa 02:35, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I am very familiar with the spelling debates on Wikipedia, but really do not see how "english spellings" which do not reference Ukrainian place names are appropriate in this article. This article is all about Ukrainian dance and the nomenclature used therein. The linked place names still redirect to articles headed with different spellings, but in the context of Ukrainian dance, the Ukrainian place names should be observed.--tufkaa 16:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, proper place-names are to be used when referring to ethnic regions. It's not only Wikipedia policy, it's good sense. --RileyLewis 17:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian names are to be preferred to others in this article, although well-known names should be listed in parentheses so that the article is readable without the reader being forced to click links or resort to a dictionary, or worse, simply not get it, e.g. "Dnipro (Dnieper)". However, there is no reason to use a transliterated Ukrainian word in English text when it is simply a synonym of a common English word, e.g. Cossack (Kozak). —Michael Z. 2006-03-03 04:03 Z 
 * Re: "cossack", that makes sense to me, given the places where the translation and transliteration is also given. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 01:51, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Mentioning Other Groups' Names
I can definitely agree that we shouldn't include any other group's names other than Virsky or Shumka. We should also monitor it to make sure other group names aren't added. Perhaps we can provide a link to a page like this, such as this one from the Alberta Ukrainian Dance Association. Mrrria 07:33, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

More dance groups will be added. This is about the entire story of Ukrainian Dance, not the version most people know about.--tufkaa 20:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and they should be. I think the intention of this and other comments not here (but in other places) were that groups important to the history and evolution of the dance should be described, but not something similar to "one group is Troyanda from Smalltown, USA who is very good and won 3 gold medals last year at the Bigville Canada festival". --RileyLewis 17:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Once things start looking unmanageable, we can readdress the issue. Keeping a list of groups with webpages is a great idea, because it shows the variety in Ukrainian Dance today. But there should still be a little more than Avramenko in each section.--tufkaa 18:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely. The article is about Ukrainian dancing in general, past and present. Also, I agree that we need a better picture for the top. Nothing wrong with that picture representing that group, but we need something a little more professional to represent Ukrainian dance as a whole worldwide. The key is getting one in public domain, or one we have explicit permission to use. --RileyLewis 20:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Avramenko
I agree that a section should be added about his contribution to Ukrainian dance. Perhaps a seperate article should be created about him, and then the main points regarding his influence can be added by the person who creates the article.Mrrria 07:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Avramenko created. --Mrrria 06:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The separate article is incredibly incomplete and incorrect in somes. After this area is settled down, I will take to that topic.--tufkaa 03:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian titles for references
Perhaps the identity of the Ukrainian references would be clearer if we included transliterated titles, as many libraries do. —Michael Z. 2006-03-03 03:47 Z 

Do you want the names in Cyrillic? I'm mostly translating my personal collection and am still learning about Wiki formats. Let me know what should be posted.--tufkaa 04:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure, post them here or in the article, and I'll transliterate the titles according to the convention. I think it would help anyone who's doing research or wants to find them in a wider library search.  —Michael Z. 2006-03-03 04:57 Z 

Kudos
By the way, great work everyone. Honourable mention to Tufkaa. "Ukrainian dance" has grown faster than any other new article I've seen in the last year and a half. —Michael Z. 2006-03-03 03:52 Z 
 * Second that! Anazing work! And guys, please do check the Ukraine portal and its new article announcement board. --Irpen 04:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainians template
There already is a template at the bottom of the page for topics related to Ukraine. This is an art form that is practiced by both Ukrainians and non-Ukrainians, so perhaps we leave out the Ukrainians template and just keep the one at the bottom.--tufkaa 15:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

youtube?
I don't know the policy regarding youtube links within the body of an article. I think anybody looking for videos can simply do a search on their own. Also, the examples given are not universal.

Povzunets is a later dance specifically choreographed by Virsky. While it relates to the other dance, it is a standalone, and thus not representative.

Chumaky isn't a regional dance. It's an example of a thematic dance, like Bootmakers, Reapers, etc..