Talk:Ulises Heureaux

Sources for Haitian ancestry through father (as per recent changes) *Recently reverted*
References:
 * Ulises Heureaux: biografía de un dictador By Mu-Kien Adriana Sang (pg 9) "D'Assas Heureaux, haitiano, con quien tuvo un hijo natural el 21 de octubre de 1845." or "D'Assas Heureaux, Haitian, who had a natural son on the 21st of October, 1845 ."
 * Peña Gómez en la sociedad haitiana Manati', 2002 (pg 40) "Ulises Heureaux, un dictador de origen haitiano..." or "Ulises Heureaux, a dictator of Haitian origin."
 * Haitian-Dominican Counterpoint by Matibag, Eugenio (pg 129) "(Ulises) Born in Puerto Plata of a Haitian father..."
 * Ulises Heureaux Política, República Dominicana "General restaurador hijo de padre haitiano..." or ...son of Haitian father...
 * Ulises Heureaux "...son of Haitian father called D'assas Heureaux and its called mother Josefa Level of San Thomas, spoke English and French."
 * Title, Haití: el drama nacional. Author, Jean Ghasmann Bissainthe. Publisher, Ediciones Librería La Trinitaria, 2012. ISBN, 9945004867, 9789945004861
 * Manual de la Historia de Haití " J. C. Dorsainvil 1942

A bonus source: (reliable?) Just to add, there are genealogical dates on this website that attempts to track Heureaux's family back generations that could be helpful. Descendants of Doyen Heureaux Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi, following the conversation/suggestions at Talk:Joaquín_Balaguer I have added some background information on Lilis' father, D'Assas. The intention is NOT to deny that some authors call D'Assas a Haitian. However, the additional information is relevant. Necessarily his French father MUST HAVE LEFT W. Saint Domingue (present Haiti) before the 1804 Haiti Massacre (else he would have lost his life) and this means that D'Assas either arrived with his father in the East (present Dominican Republic) before the foundation of Haiti, or was born in the East. Furthermore, according to the references, D'Assas did self-identify as Dominican following the Dominican independence declaration. These RELEVANT FACTS should enable the reader to reach his own conclusions. Virgrod (talk) 20:48, 3 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Virgrod, those above are a list of sources pointing to his Haitian birth. His French father has nothing to do with anything. Him becoming Dominican still has nothing to do with it. Many Haitian mulattos had French fathers. Saint-Domingue; independence is irrelavant. Please do not revert. Thank you. Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:25, 5 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Savvyjack23 I am very sorry but I do disagree with you. First, the text you want to remove does NOT deny that some authors do call him a Haitian. That is included clearly. It simply adds some additional RELEVANT FACTS that the reader may find useful. You may not find them useful but others readers may. Furthermore, the authors said nothing about birthplace or birthdate, or explain WHY they call him Haitian. They just call him Haitian. And those references, especially the newer ones, are simply repeating what an initial reference said. The French father is absolutely relevant for the reasons that have been explained multiple times and that are in the text that you don't want readers to read. Please, remember that this is a PUBLIC site, not a personal blog. PLease, do NOT remove again text that is relevant and others may find useful (even if you don't). Let others make their own mind. Virgrod (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

The history of Haiti is of no relevance. Your "educating" the reader is redundant. Savvyjack23 (talk) 04:52, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Virgrod, if you choose to continue to revert and add this original work and assumptions you are making, while six of my sources confirm "Haitian" father, I will not hestitate to see to it that you are blocked from editing. You are entitled to disagree but there are no sources to back your claim with this person. Savvyjack23 (talk) 04:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

The only line that has some way of being included is  has been described as a Haitian[1][2][3] who chose to become Dominican after the Dominican declaration of independence in 1844, however it is verified by ONE source. The other two that you have behind it DO NOT support this. Do not use the references I have provided for your appeasement. Nothing verifies this source. But it can be noted that he chose to be Dominican after the declaration of 1844 (you do realize before this time it was Haitian country anyway 1822-1844, but no do not include that). Still, you need more than one source to verify this. Savvyjack23 (talk) 05:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Furthermore, this article is about the son not the father. Meanwhile his father's father is more questionable, whether if he was from New Orleans or France. Again, you make no quarrels there. Savvyjack23 (talk) 05:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Savvyjack23 You have to realize that this site is not your personal blog. Different people have different POV. You keep on repeating that some sources call UH's a Haitian, as if that was under dispute. It is NOT under dispute. It has been accepted that some sources do call him that, and it IS included in the text you want removed. The issue here is the additional RELEVANT information about the circumstances that led UH's French grandfather and his son to move from the West to the East. That is the information that you want the reader NOT to see. That is wrong. I am making up nothing. The 1804 Haiti Massacre is a well documented event that DID happen. It clearly implies that the French grandfather left the West before 1804 (else he would have been killed). Please, STOP REMOVING TRUTHFUL AND RELEVANT INFORMATION. It is WRONG TO DO SO.Virgrod (talk) 05:55, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Osplace, I am more concerned with this article as this is the route to the discussion. Can we agree to remove original work? Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Osplace We should continue the discussion on these issues, to try to arrive at a consensus text. In particular, further clarification on WP:No OR and especially WP:What SYNTH is not seems necessary. As stated elsewhere, a direct logical implication of the form: A is taller than B (sourced) and B is taller than C (sourced) therefore A MUST BE taller than C (unsourced) may NOT constitute OR. Likewise, pointing out MISSING information (e.g. "sources provide no place or date of birth") may not constitute OR. Again, these are wider issue that go beyond the UH nationality question, and should be settled, because they may affect many other articles. Virgrod (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that this discussion is going into the wrong direction. I would like that the two of you please refrain yourself to make any changes to the articles involved in the Assad discussion. When we have a consensus, then we will aply the results to all the articles affected. I regret this: "It clearly implies that the French grandfather left the West before 1804 (else he would have been killed). Please, STOP REMOVING TRUTHFUL AND RELEVANT INFORMATION. It is WRONG TO DO SO." This is WP:SYNTH violation. We can't make the reader believe that this questions is still unknown. Assad is or is not, may the data about it be recalled properly is the matter here. Was he bor in East SD? Then is a mistake call him a Haitian. Is this statement true? Show the reference. Not a reference? Implies do not work for Wikipedia. I would like to both of you know how sensitive this information is in the actual circunstances happening between the Dominican Republic and Haiti have to be settle as per WP policies. Osplace 15:33, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Osplace I agree we need a consensus text before further changes on this matter. A critical issue is what synthesis is per WP policies. Can you please follow/contribute to Wikipedia_talk:What_SYNTH_is_not ? Please, invite any appropriate party you may know to contribute to that discussion. Potentially it may have an impact on many other articles.Virgrod (talk) 16:56, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Virgrod, I will follow the discussion. Be aware that your point of view may or may NOT become a Wikipedia Policy any time soon. What do you think we should do until that happended? Osplace 00:41, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Osplace, I am not asking for a change of policy, but rather a clarification on current policy, along the lines of What SYNTH is not. I would hope that the clarification would not take that long. If I understand correctly, the item in the present text that is suspected of WP:SYNTH is "his French father must have left Western Saint Domingue (present-day Haiti) before the 1804 Haiti Massacre(else he would have lost his life)". That is why in SYNTH_vs_simple_logical_implications I requested comments on the example "2b) A Tsunami wiped out the population of region R on the date YYYY-MM-DD (sourced). Tom, a resident of region R, was alive after YYYY-MM-DD (sourced). Tom had left region R before YYYY-MM-DD.". In this example, the Tsunami is analogous to the 1804 Haiti Massacre for the French population of W. Saint Domingue. If in the Tsunami example, "Tom had left region R before YYYY-MM-DD" is acceptable, then the conclusion from sourced facts that the French father must have migrate before the Massacre would be equally acceptable. Does this make sense? Virgrod (talk) 04:54, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I have read what you written there. I could understand everything without this explanation. I strongly believe we can not have an ambiguous statement in Wikipedia articles. How are we going to present the results if you are granted the permission to include this? Yes is stated and referenced that Assad was a Haitian, but I Virgrod myself believe "but, even if any of us was there at that time and we could not see him ourselves and write about him in a book or a newspaper, neither have a reference with his name on it of anyone stating this matter, must be logical if ... (your claim goes here)". Osplace 13:21, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Osplace, some sources call D'Assas "Haitian", and we agree that that SHOULD BE in the article. The problem is that other relevant facts (also sourced) point in a different direction, and in my view we should ALSO include that. For example, none of the sources give date/place of birth. That is relevant, right? If they knew this info, they would give it, and if they don't have this info, how can they be sure of his nationality?. In fact the sources provide no explanation for the claim. Furthermore, as stated above, it is well-documented AND SOURCED, that in 1804 French people in W. SD were ALL KILLED. Obviously a person cannot migrate after death. So, D'Assas father MUST have migrated before death (meaning he must have migrated before the state of Haiti was created). This is not about including non-sourced information...It is about pointing out missing information, as well as including other relevant sourced information (the genocide is sourced). So, I would suggest a small subsection simply pointing these facts out about D'Assas, and let the reader conclude. Anyhow, I noticed that some discussion relevant to SYNTH_vs_simple_logical_implications has started, so let's see...Virgrod (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

This is an assumption and not a logical one. >>>>"So, D'Assas father MUST have migrated before death (meaning he must have migrated before the state of Haiti was created..." Furthermore, D'assas was a mulatto, so who even says he had to move because of the massacre? Mind you this massacre isn't a massacre; its called a war of independence, like any other country in the western hemisphere. I made a note earlier in the discussion that not all the French were killed, the useful ones were allowed to stay and help administer the country. Savvyjack23 (talk) 01:49, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

None of these sources even hesitate to give his nationality' there are a lot of dead people who don't have a known birth date or specific location of birth within a country. So now you are essentially saying Haitian (as mentioned in the text) can be used to refer to people of Saint-Domingue when you were arguing for the opposite before? So according to you, nobody is Haitian. They all explicitly state Haitian. Who's a Haitian? Somebody from Haiti. Below are three book sources, never-mind .com's etc...

(1) "D'Assas Heureaux, haitiano, con quien tuvo un hijo natural el 21 de octubre de 1845." Rough translation: D'Assas Heureaux, Haitian, who had a natural son on the 21st of October, 1845 . Ulises Heureaux: biografía de un dictador (pg 9) Sang, Mu-Kien Adriana

(2) "Ulises Heureaux, un dictador de origen haitiano..." Rough translation: Ulises Heureaux, a dictator of Haitian origin. Peña Gómez en la sociedad haitiana, 2002 (pg 40) Manati'

(3) (Ulises) Born in Puerto Plata of a Haitian father... Haitian-Dominican Counterpoint (pg 129) Matibag, Eugenio

'''Now, please locate a source that challenges. If not, you have no grounds to infer your logic against sources. Its not even a question.''' Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:46, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Since Virgrod have fail either with SYNTH_vs_simple_logical_implications or finding a reference for his claims, we must close this argument. D'Assas as a Haitian as references shows. Nothing else must be included, because the other claims could not be proven. Osplace 02:51, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Osplace First, I don't know what has failed about SYNTH_vs_simple_logical_implications. It is an open discussion in which so far only one other person has participated, and as I understand that person is at least partially in agreement with my position there (but that should be debated there I suppose). About this specific article, let's go by parts to determine exactly where is the disagreement: (1a) Some sources call DH a Haitian. We all agree that should be included, right?. (1b) At least one source explicitly indicates that DH self-identified as Dominican following the DR declaration of independence in 1844. That is sourced and relevant, so I see no reason to exclude that, do you? (2) NO source gives DH's date/place of birth (or can anyone point out where that is?). That is relevant info that is normally given about a person, and which is central to the issue of nationality. The fact that DH's date/place of birth are unknown is TRUE and RELEVANT and should be stated. Don't you agree?. (3) The sources provide no rationale or explanation for calling him Haitian (or am I missing that somewhere?). If they don't, I believe it should also be pointed out, since it is also TRUE and it is also RELEVANT. Don't you agree? (4) His father was French, and ALL French people present in Haiti were killed in 1804 (do you need a source for this?...there are many). Since dead people cannot migrate (I suppose we need no source for this) it trivially follows that the French father did migrate to the DR before the 1804 (well documented) genocide. Since no one knows when/where DH was born the fact that his father left W. SD before 1804 is definitely relevant. Don't you agree?. Can you please answer points 1-4 above one by one? Thanks. Virgrod (talk) 03:33, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I am glad you concur Osplace. Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:48, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I suggest that the point by point analysis above be undertaken, to try to find a consensus. Virgrod (talk) 03:58, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Response: (1a) 3 book sources call DH Haitian to your 0 sources. (1b) One source says identified as Haitian (This is a confirmation itself!) Okay so he chose to be Dominican; that doesn't mean he isn't of Haitian descent (2) The fact that these sources say Haitian which means he is from Haiti. Birth country is confirmed while DOB is not. You can challenge his age, not his country of birth as we have sources saying he has origins from Haiti. (4) Alexandre Petion's father was French too, I do not see your point. They are both mulattoes. (4b) Not all the French were killed, (see: 06:30) as I stated before. Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:58, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Savvyjack23 please, read the 4 points carefully. (1a) is a point of AGREEMENT, right? We all agree that the article SHOULD indicate that several sources call DH Haitian. That has never been the issue here. Understood? (1b) is sourced and relevant, so should be included, right? (2) Birth place is a specific location. Birthplace in itself does not prove nationality, nor does nationality proves birthplace. It is however a relevant piece of information which apparently no one knows. My proposal is simply that the text points out that no source gives DH's place or date of birth nor (3) provides any specific reason to call him Haitian. (4) Whether any French survived both massacres (after the 1st the was supposedly an "amnesty" followed by another massacre) is under dispute. Some sources do say that a few medical doctors survived, but there is zero evidence that DH's father was one of them. The relevance of this is that DH MAY have left for the DR before Haiti was established (or may have been born there). But remember none of these is intended to deny that some sources call DH a Haitian (that goes in the article). This is just contextual TRUE AND SOURCED information to be added for the reader's edification. Please, do understand that. Virgrod (talk) 04:51, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Au contraire Virgrod, see D'Assas Heureaux about your WP:OR. Savvyjack23 (talk) 04:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The previous (4 points) exercise is precisely to try to find a consensus text that provides as much truthful and relevant information as possible, WITHOUT including any OR. That is what we want.Virgrod (talk) 04:51, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

No, the consensus is for what you had edited or the edit I made that you reverted which was in accordance exactly with the sources I had. Thank you. Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Osplace do you disagree with my edit that was reverted?

"Heureaux, affectionately known as Lilís, was born in Puerto Plata. He is the son of D'assas Heureaux, a Haitian, (whose father Pierre Alejandro Heureaux, was a Frenchman and his mother an African-born slave) and Josefa Leibert from St. Thomas, whom were both mulattos but with dark skin. Due to his cultural background, he was able to speak French and English in addition to Spanish fluently."

The only thing I would change is "Due to his cultural background, he was able," (I inferred here) to "He was raised to speak French and English in addition to Spanish fluently." Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:32, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

(1b) Can you verify this source the way it is worded? Like I have with mine multiple times? In other words, all my sources to your one is not helping the verification. No? (2) So do not mention where he is born. This is not his article, it is his SON'S. Simply inserting Haitian is suffice. (3) Why do you need an explanation? The text says he is HAITIAN. (4) Is NOT RELEVANT; see (3). If the text wanted to be specific it would have said born in the French colony. Enough. Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:42, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * talk First, could you PLEASE use the colon to make an indentation (tab space) in your replies? Every colon makes an indentation, and you can use several depending on who you are replying. This is just for readability. Second, it is wrong for you to revert before there is a consensus text. A consensus text is one that takes into account all involved, and that includes me, unfortunately. Yes, the text cannot have OR. But that does not mean that the only thing that can be said about DH is that he is Haitian, as seem to be your preoccupation. The other issues that have been mentioned are RELEVAT and sourced, and there is no reason to keep them out of the article. In the mean time, can you please, de-revert until we reach a consensus? The 1b point is completely clear and sourced ("one of the many Haitians who chose to become Dominican")...there is no reason why it shouldn't be mentioned, as long as other factors. We need to find a consensus. That is not the same as an imposition by anyone on the others. Please, de-revert. Virgrod (talk) 02:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I only reverted, because you had removed another users edit initially without discussion. See: You had removed this entirely by saying "People of French descend who left Saint Domingue before former slaves founded Haiti are NOT Haitians" So what's that all about? I need to discuss why I am restoring an edit, and citing additional sources? Also, de-revert what exactly? Perhaps, we can include "one of the many Haitians who chose to become Dominican", however I will try to verify this source, but how come you couldn't do this? I haven't been focusing on him becoming Dominican or that part of his life (1844-after) because we are talking about his son primarily. But I can look into it if you like. Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:06, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Inaccurate dates
The dates listed for his presidency terms 1. don't match 2. some are missing 3. other sources quote different dates Flurry 21:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I did a complete check and reworking of the dates. Here is the main reference I used Michael David 18:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Lets make this a great article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography#WikiProject_Biography_11_easy_steps_to_producing_at_least_a_B_article 64.131.205.111 07:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Los Bolos


The article Los Bolos has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * A search for references found no published (gBooks) in English supporting the content of this article. It has been tagged to add references since October 2006. Without references and unable to find support the article fails WP:V, if WP:RS are added to support the content it would seem to pass WP:N but without references (any language is fine), and no cross language wiki links; it can not be shown to pass WP:N or WP:V.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:49, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

RfC: Sourced work vs. alleged WP:OR
The person in question is about D'assas Heureaux, Ulises' father. The current edited version by User:Virgrod is being challenged as WP:OR. Not only is the article not about his father, the section indulges into information about this person's bio that cannot be sourced. Should it stay or should the previous version be restored for the reasons above? (The same problem is happening to a similar page on the Joaquín Balaguer article. (See:Talk:Joaquín_Balaguer), to whom was related to Ulises Heureaux. See also, the current feedback on the No original research/Noticeboard No original research/Noticeboard/Archive 31 To all concerning parties, thank you for your time. Savvyjack23 (talk) 01:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Savvyjack23 we AGREE that there must NOT be OR in the article. But you seem to believe that everything except calling DH a Haitian is OR. That is wrong. We can add relevant information that is NOT OR. For example, NO source provides place or date of birth, nor give any explanation for ascribing a nationality to him. Why can't we point that out in the article? It is definitely TRUE and RELEVANT. What is known and unknown about the circumstances how/when the family reached the territory of present day DR is also relevant for the readers to know. Pointing out relevant information NOT PROVIDED by the sources isn't OR, is it?Virgrod (talk) 03:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment I am an uninvolved editor chosen by a bot at random to comment. All challenged claims must be sourced to reliable sources WP:RS. We editors are not here to create facts but to write about facts already provided by third parties in reliable sources. Anything that isnt sourced should be tagged as needing a citation. If a citation cant be found within a reasonable amount of time, say a few days to a week the information can and should be removed. In this case where there is a sourced version perhaps reverting to it, and working on the replacement in a sandbox until it is sourced and ready to be in the article might be a good idea. AlbinoFerret  00:22, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret, thank you for your input. I've added inline maintenance tags. I hope to have this resolved godspeed. Thank you. Savvyjack23 (talk) 00:36, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment This RFC needs more information about the exact text under discussion as well as the references. Looking through this Talk page, it seems that the sentence in question is his French father must have left Western Saint Domingue (present-day Haiti) before the 1804 Haiti Massacre(else he would have lost his life). The conclusion that the father must have left before the massacre because he didn't die is false. Maybe he managed to hide under a pile of bodies, maybe he was out in the fields that day, maybe he was visiting a friend - any one of those actions (and there are probably many more he could have taken) would have caused him to live through the massacre. Therefore, we editors cannot infer that he was not present at the time of the massacre just because he lived, and to do so is WP:SYNTH. In order to state that he had left before the massacre, we must have a reliable source. Ca2james (talk) 02:23, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ca2james, the main problem is with that sentence. Your input is straight to the point. Osplace 00:34, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

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