Talk:Ulster loyalism

Accuracy
Recently, many unionists have stopped describing themselves as loyalist, as this term has become synonymous with militant extremism, violence and terrorism.

This is not a recent phenomenon.

'Upon Irish independence in 1921, the six counties of Ulster

Upon Irish independence in 1921, the four counties of Ulster'

Both these statements are inaccurate. Ulster had, and still has, nine counties.

They took two other counties with them, as their combined population still had a unionist majority.

This implies that the six counties had left the country they had been part of. In actual fact, it remained in the same country and it was the Free State who had changed their status.

in favour of reuniting with the Republic of Ireland to form one country

This is ambiguous. The implication could be that people desire that the Republic of Ireland re-unite with Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom. In fact, Ireland was never united as a single entity except under British rule. "Uniting", on the other hand, implies that the island be united for the first time in its existance as a separate sovereign state.

although the British state has long struggled to convince many of its legitimacy.

It hasn't.


 * "Recently, many unionists have stopped describing themselves as loyalist, as this term has become synonymous with militant extremism, violence and terrorism.


 * This is not a recent phenomenon."


 * Yes it is. I would date it to about the start of the peace process.

You ''might date it to the mid-1990's, but it is an older phenomenon than that. I am talking from experience.''--Mal 00:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "'Upon Irish independence in 1921, the six counties of Ulster


 * Upon Irish independence in 1921, the four counties of Ulster'


 * Both these statements are inaccurate. Ulster had, and still has, nine counties."


 * I wrote "the four counties of Ulster that had Protestant majorities". There's a difference.

''Now that you have explained your meaning, I understand it. But it is ambiguous and could easily be taken to mean that Ulster had four counties.''--Mal 00:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "They took two other counties with them, as their combined population still had a unionist majority.


 * This implies that the six counties had left the country they had been part of. In actual fact, it remained in the same country and it was the Free State who had changed their status."


 * Funnily enough, the six counties did leave. See Anglo-Irish Treaty.

''It was 26 counties that left. Six counties remain.''--Mal 00:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "in favour of reuniting with the Republic of Ireland to form one country


 * This is ambiguous. The implication could be that people desire that the Republic of Ireland re-unite with Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom.  In fact, Ireland was never united as a single entity except under British rule.  "Uniting", on the other hand, implies that the island be united for the first time in its existance as a separate sovereign state."


 * I don't accept your definition of unity.

''Nevertheless, your statement is ambiguous. My revision is more easily understood.''--Mal 00:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "although the British state has long struggled to convince many of its legitimacy.


 * It hasn't."


 * It strikes me there are many people who (sometimes violently) reject any notion that Britain has a right to involve itself in Irish affairs. I believe a lot of people were killed over this very issue. Maybe you heard something about that. See the Troubles article, and Anglo-Irish War.

''The United Kingdom, as it stands now and from 1922, is recognised by every country in the world, including the Republic of Ireland. The Republic of Ireland has even amended its constitution to reflect the official and legitimate position. The United Kingdom has never had to "struggle to convince" anyone of its legitimacy.''--Mal 00:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist 03:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

There is no country called Britain. Southern Ireland become independent in 1922. The island of Ireland has never existed as an independent state let alone a republic. For reunification to occur, Southern Ireland would have to rejoin Northern Ireland in the UK. That's real Irish unity as well as British Isles unity which is what is of paramount importance. No sense in 26 counties of the British Isles not being in union with the rest. The United Kingdom does not involve itself in Irish affairs. On the contrary, it is the Irish Republic that keeps sticking its nose in where it is not wanted in the internal affairs of the United Kingdom's Ulster province! Northern "Ireland" ceased being any of Southern Ireland's business the day it left the Union!YourPTR! 14:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I echo the sentiment that terms such as 'Irish reunification' are not accurate. The entire island of Ireland has never existed as a united and politically independent jurisdiction. More accurate to use 'united Ireland' at best. Quinessential quipple (talk) 07:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Page move
I propose moving this page to Ulster loyalism, as per Unionism (Ireland), Irish nationalism and Irish Republicanism. Any takers? Irish Republicanism should be moved to Irish republicanism too, with the redirect page switching. Stu  ’Bout ye!  13:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * What is your thinking on moving Unionism (Ireland) to Irish unionism Stu (and others)? The article deals with Unionism throughout the island - not only within Northern Ireland. Also, perhaps there should be an article about Unionism in general terms regarding ideology. The fact is that Unionism is a type of Nationalism, and I believe there is already an article about the latter.


 * I appreciate that a number of unionists don't like to label themselves particularly as "Irish", though I would personally describe those people more as loyalists. However, as the existing article pertains to the whole island, it is appropriate.


 * I'd support your suggestions.


 * On another note, does anyone know of any opinion polls taken amongst Northern Irish people pertaining to their views on the British monarchy? Personally, I'm neither for it too much, nor agin' it too much.. but I am aware of unionists who are most definately anti-monarchy (and, by definition therefore, republicans!). --Mal 16:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You will find that throughout the United Kingdom though not just Northern Ireland and its still a small but significant minority. They are republicans only in the sense they would like to see the United Kingdom become a United Republic and not that they want to join the Irish Republic!YourPTR! 14:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
The section 'Upon Irish independence in 1921, despite a national majority desiring unity' is written from an Irish republican perspective. It assumes that 'unity' can only refer to the unity of Ireland rather than the unity of The Union which the majority opposed. Please change this to something NPOV.66.162.71.130 15:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think some of that is due to a recent change by an anonymous editor. Not being an expert on the history of Northern Ireland, I tried to make a comprimise by combining both versions. This article desparately needs reliable neutral references in order to back up factual claims and maintain a NPOV status. Spylab 20:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Where are the references?
This article has been tagged since March for lacking references. An article about a controversial topic such as this really needs to have some reliable sources. I don't know enough about the topic to seek out those references, but anyone who adds claims to the article should be able to provide sources to back up those claims. I haven't personally added any new facts or claims to this article, but do recognize when someone is trying to push a point of view, and have attempted to maintain the neutrality and accuracy of the article. Spylab 16:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Militant
The word militant is used in the first sentence, surely this isn't necessarily the case? --Counter-revolutionary 18:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Political question?
User: Political Dweeb here wants to ask if there are any representitives or members from the British Ulster Alliance who are Wikipedia users so they can come onto this discussion page where we can discuss/explain to help me understand a political position of theirs. --Political Dweeb (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Image
I question the use of the flag of the LVF. It is a UVF splinter-group and not representative of the larger groups, both political and paramilitary, that embrace loyalism in Northern Ireland. Billsmith60 (talk) 09:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC) {update: the "Ulster flag" would be more appropriate, surely "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ulster_banner.svg }

Collusion
Collusion with the British government has nnnnnn absolutely nothing to do with the concept of Ulster loyalism and it therefore should not be included on this page. Joel Leslie (talk) 11:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Most of this article is about loyalist paramilitaries. How does collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces hav' nothing to do with loyalist paramilitaries? ~Asarlaí 19:04, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I am in agreement with Joel Leslie here. "Most of this article is about loyalist paramilitaries" because you yourself added it, despite the fact that there are already dedicated pages dealing with them. Moreover, a lot of the text appears to be cut n' paste - the page on The Troubles also recently received an almost identical and very extended collusion section. The entire tone and balance of this page, and to a lesser extent the Troubles one, has been drastically altered by the addition of this text, to the extent that it now reads as a loyalist paramilitary and state collusion article with a very thin shell of information on Ulster Loyalism surrounding it. Given your previous edits which removed duplicate information or text repeated in other articles, such as here I am puzzled by its inclusion.


 * There are many things relating to the concept of Ulster Loyalism which this page might briefly detail: etymology ("loyalist" being a relatively recent term); the prominence of the Orange Order, Black Institution, etc. and their role in loyalist culture, the concept of "conditional loyalty" to the British state; the activities of early loyalist groups such as the Peep O' Day Boys and Wreckers; cultural accoutrements and totems such as the lambeg drum and flute, or mural painting; the self-perceived shared identity between Ulster and Scottish loyalists, and links with the Orange Order in Canada; political content, for example the Ulster Covenant and the reaction it provoked in the Asquith government, or the proposition of an independent Northern Ireland and the discussions surrounding a possible UDI in the 1970s, or the Labour Party's decision not to participate in NI and its effect on trade unionism and setting up of the Northern Ireland Labour Party; the left-wing nature of the NILP and UVF-linked PUP; a brief roster of prominent figures, e.g. Edward Carson (astonishingly he is not even mentioned) and William Craig.


 * All those things are relevant to the subject of Ulster Loyalism and could/should be touched upon. The section on LPMs is marginally pertinent, but the one dealing with collusion irrelevant and in fact off-topic. I would vote for the removal of the latter, and a brief summation of the former subject only.Shipyard Special (talk) 21:23, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Much of this article is about loyalist paramilitaries because loyalist paramilitaries are a big part of loyalism. The lede even notes that "The term 'loyalist' is often used to describe working-class unionists who are willing to use political violence". Likewize, the collusion section is here because collusion was a big (or at least noteworthy) part of loyalist paramilitary activity. I agree that the article needs to be expanded and should cover all the things you listed, but we shouldn't nix the collusion section just because it is detailed while the other sections are poor. ~Asarlaí 23:25, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Asarlaí - the very large paramilitary section was unilaterally added by you, as was the collusion section. Together they now constitute the bulk of the article and the latter is the single largest section. Collusion is a relevant aspect of paramilitarism - just one aspect - but it is not germane to Ulster Loyalism, which is what the article is about! Using that logic you could just as easily argue that the Orange Order is a significant aspect of loyalism and include a large section on the history of it, or plant a few thousand words on IRA supergrasses on the Irish Republicanism page. You have deleted superfluous passages from articles in the past ("we have a page for this") so I do not understand the cut n' paste here. State collusion with LPMs is a contentious issue which has ideological significance for republicans as well as the obvious criminal justice implications and care should be taken so that undue weight is not given. To give a contrasting example, the Arms Trial merits a single paragraph - a mere 60 or so words - on Provisional IRA.


 * Frankly, the issue of collusion could be dealt with in a couple of lines or short paragraph and needs no more. I am not the first to raise the matter and would like to move on getting the article in better shape. Ultimately the issue is simple: this is the Ulster Loyalism article, not the Loyalist Paramilitary, or UVF/UDA, or Stevens Inquiry, or State Collusion page. Shipyard Special (talk) 23:17, 16 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I have removed the section as, without even getting into policy, it has no relevance whatever to the subject. See WP:UNDUE, WP:NPOV. The essays in WP:ROC and especially WP:COATRACK are particularly pertinent here. The section has also been cut n' pasted into two other articles as well. Please to not revert this.Shipyard Special (talk) 01:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I've asked for input from other editors at WikiProject Ireland. With only the two of us involved in the discussion it'll go nowhere.
 * The only editor who has sought the removal of this section is you. Another editor (Joel Leslie) made an account solely to remove it, then suspiciously vanished after spending only two days on Wikipedia. I've explained my position: loyalist paramilitarism is a big part of loyalism, and loyalist collusion with the security forces was a big part of that. You say that security force collusion with loyalists is not related to loyalism, yet you haven't shown us how. Maybe the section could be trimmed, but nixing it altogether (which you've been doing) is just hiding the truth. It would be like nixing all mentions of the Provisional IRA Arms Trial from the Provisional IRA article. Furthermore, we shouldn't nix it just because the other sections are poorly developed. Don't just sit there, develop them! I've already begun to develop the lede, the paramilitaries section and the fraternities section. ~Asarlaí 14:56, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I just came from there and I have to say the section on collusion looks to me like it is too far removed from the topic of the article. It is more part of the topic of loyalist paramilitary groups, and a section about that is okay in the article as being directly connected to Ulster loytalism, however the collusion is two removes from the article topic. The most I would expect would be a small paragraph in the section about paramilitaries. Going into much detail about it though is definitely off topic and should be more in a article which is about the paramilitaries. Dmcq (talk) 17:50, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The thing is, we don't have an article solely about "Loyalist paramilitary groups". This is the nearest thing we've got (as paramilitarism is a big part of loyalism) and that's why the section was added here.
 * Maybe we should make an article about Collusion during The Troubles and shift the section there? The article could cover both loyalist and republican collusion with security forces. ~Asarlaí 18:14, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That's where links come in, having smaller articles with links works better with Wikipedia than trying to do what paper encyclopaedias tend to do with 'in-depth' articles. You just need a couple of reasonable references talking fairly specifically about a topic to set up a new article. Dmcq (talk) 18:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * While a separate article covering state collusion seems at first thought be a good idea, my concerns are 1) the Arms Crisis already has quite a large article (although not very well sourced); 2) many allegations and substantiated cases on the loyalist side are already extensively documented in the respective articles (Brian Nelson, Mark Haddock, Ulster Defence Regiment), as are those regarding the Breen/Buchanan killings on the republican side; 3) any collusion page dealing with the Troubles is inevitably going to mushroom on a Brit/loyalist theme and replicate information covered elsewhere. Ultimately all the information in the collusion section that has been pasted here, and in Operation Banner and The Troubles, already appears elsewhere. To illustrate my point, the section on paramilitary infiltration on the page Ulster Defence Regiment, which covers much the same ground as the section here (and more), runs to 2500 words alone and is by far the single largest section in that article. The issue is already extensively covered on the appropriate pages.--Shipyard Special (talk) 06:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * If a collusion article were made it would be an overview of collusion during the Troubles. It would tie it all together. The articles about specific people (such as Brian Nelson), groups (such as the UDR) and events (the Miami Showband killings, the Arms Trial, asf) can be more in-depth and deal with the finer details concerning them. If the article were made, then the 'collusion overviews' here, at The Troubles and at Operation Banner can be shortened.
 * However, I think we should wait for more input from other editors. ~Asarlaí 17:00, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Althought I know my opinion here at Wikipedia is worthless despite my years of work and over 50-plus articles I created on Troubles-related events and people, I have to say that I agree with Asarlai. If we jave a section in this article dealing with loyalist paramilitaries then it would look rather incomplete not to include collusion with the security forces and MI Intelligence. I do concur that there are aspects of Ulster loyalism unconnected with paramiltaries which should be fleshed out in the page.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The article is about Ulster Loyalism though, not loyalist paramilitaries. That is, everything from the Peep O' Day Boys, through UDU, celebrations of The Twelfth, Paisleyism and the DUP, through to the present-day flag protests, etc. Why does that section need to be over 700 words long, larger in fact than the section dealing with paramilitaries, dominating and becoming the focus of the article? What does it do that a couple of sentences in summation with links to Stevens Inquiries and Ulster Defence Regiment: Infiltration by paramilitaries, where the subject is dealt with in detail and at length, won't? Presumably by the same logic Irish Republicanism would benefit from a similar section on the Arms Crisis, or INLA feuds. These two essays, WP:ROC and WP:COATRACK, do a good job of explaining my objections:

Use summary style Main page: Wikipedia:Summary style

Wikipedia articles should be written in summary style, providing an overview of their subject. This overview may touch upon several related topics or subtopics, but any details not immediately relevant to the primary topic should be moved into other articles, linking to them if appropriate. If coverage of a subtopic grows to the point where it overshadows the main subject (or digresses too far from it), it may be appropriate to spin it off into a sub-article.

Article scope

Articles on very general subjects should serve as an introduction to the entire subject, and avoid going into detail on topics for which more specific articles exist. Articles on very specific subjects can treat their subject in depth.

From WP:COATRACK:

A coatrack article is a Wikipedia article that ostensibly discusses the nominal subject, but in reality is a cover for a tangentially related biased subject. The nominal subject is used as an empty coat-rack, which ends up being mostly obscured by the "coats". The existence of a "hook" in a given article is not a good reason to "hang" irrelevant and biased material there.

The coats hanging from the rack hide the rack – the nominal subject gets hidden behind the sheer volume of the bias subject. Thus the article, although superficially true, leaves the reader with a thoroughly incorrect understanding of the nominal subject. A coatrack article fails to give a truthful impression of the subject. However, a largely critical article about a subject that really is discredited is not covered by WP:COATRACK; see the policies laid out at WP:FRINGE for more information.

The Flea This sort of case begins with facts about one main topic (perhaps a specific type of flea), then launches into more sub-topics (still dealing with fleas, but on a much broader scale) about which the writer has prepared way too much information, and may make occasional tangential reconnections (hopefully) to the original main topic (that specific type of flea) in an attempt to hide the coatracking. The "Flea" may be something correct but misplaced as in this example, or nationalistic propaganda, or simply irrelevant trivia about which nobody but the writer cares. Shipyard Special (talk) 13:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The section on collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and the state is absolutely relevant and I can't think of any reason why an NPOV editor would want to remove the sourced material in it. Brocach (talk) 22:29, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I fully agree with you Brocach and all the WP cites above do not convince me that removibng the sourced info about collusion is in the best interests of the reader.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:27, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The fact that it is sourced does not mean it is relevant. Those are the issues: relevance, undue weight, and coatracking. I haven't read a single argument establishing direct relevance to the article topic, or justifying the great length and prominence of the section relative to the rest of the article. It does not provide context, restates information which is covered at length in more relevant articles, and is a duplicate of information that has been cut n' pasted into two other articles. Moreover, its condensing would not result in the removal of any information from Wikipedia. On the contrary, something like the following would give an overview of the subject while directing readers to pages where the issue is covered in-depth:


 * There have been numerous allegations and proven instances of collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces, particularly the locally-recruited Ulster Defence Regiment. Prominently, the Stevens Inquiries and Patrick Finucane Review, released in 2003 and 2012 respectively, investigated the activities of Force Research Unit agent Brian Nelson within the UDA.


 * I find that I'm repeating myself again and again without any response addressing my points so it'd be appreciated if someone can explain 1) how the section is directly related to Ulster Loyalism 2) why it needs to be so long 3) what information would be lost if the section was replaced with links to the appropriate articles where the matter is dealt with in greater detail.--Shipyard Special (talk) 22:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with Shipyard Special to an extent. The section isn't that relevant but as the events happened there is a strong case for making mention of them as part of an overview.  Where the POV always fails is in making too much of a meal of it.  From my perspective it looks as if there is too much of an attempt to introduce material which favours republicanism i.e. the "Subversion in the UDR" report keeps appearing in articles like this, time and time again - why?  This article only refers to 1972 but the way it's being used suggests the content of this (speculative) report are true for the entire 22 year history of the regiment?  The intent seems to be to persuade a reader that the UDR was institutionally anti-Catholic/nationalist/republican.  Yes there is mitigation for this POV but by editing it in, especially in this case, you finish up with far too much information in the article on the UDR. My recommendation is that this section be cut to remove the POV accusations which means we can remove the (accurate) mitigation and leave a much smaller section with inline refs to take a reader to the relevant articles.  We've got to stop all this POV. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:28, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Well done Mabuska. At last we have a start on cutting it down.  I think we need to see a little of WP:BOLD now to get rid of the surplus information and reduce the article to being an overview on Ulster Loyalism, which after all is what it is. SonofSetanta (talk) 11:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The point is Ulster loyalism is not defined by loyalist paramilitaries. Loyalist and unionist are synonymous and amoungst this community paramilitries have little support as demonstrated at the ballot box. (The only unionist/loyalist party with links to paramilitaries is the insignificant PUP.) So whilst loyalist paramilitaries should form a section they should only make up a small percentage of the overall article. Quinessential quipple (talk) 07:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Reworking of UDR section
I am going to rework this section to cut it down and make it less POV. It should only assume a small portion of the text here and that's how it's going to finish up. Interested parties can look in at User:SonofSetanta/sandbox. SonofSetanta (talk) 14:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Telling editors "this is how it's going to be" isn't the way to do things and will only lead to edit warring. The way to do things is to reach agreement with other editors. ~Asarlaí 16:18, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Which is why you've been invited to participate at my sandbox. I am using WP:BOLD however because a number of editors have expressed concern about how much space this section takes up and why it needs to go into so much details when all we need is an overview. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

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