Talk:Umar/Archive 2

Continuation of previous
Thata not a fair statement.

First of all, the sunnis are more than 5 times bigger than the shia, so logicly you have more to defend. Hizbollah makes one, al sadr makes another, and you mentioned 4, so in that aspect are we doing more than our share.

Furtermore, you are not correct in "While the Sunna are busy fighting evil, the Shia are busy fighting on internet forums over history." Go take a look at www.ansar.org and its likes, and you will se that even the sunnis are going through history.

Your claim about betrayal are silly non-sense. Bring proof if you are truthfull.

You see me giving list after list with proofs and links, i see you only talking.

--Striver 10:25, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I don’t understand these silly accusations of the prophet’s closest friends. It seems that those who criticise Umar and Abu Bakr, have doubts in Prophet Mohammed’s judgment and view in people.

However, this may have been possible if it was not for the ِAyat in the Holy Quran that says (وما ينطق عن الهوى أن هو الا وحي يوحى). Now, if you have doubts in the Quran and in the Prophet, one has to question whether Islam is the correct religion for you.

-Abu Al Waleed--

Accusations? Why not try to refute som of it? Did Umar Ummar forbid Tayyamum, yes ot no? Did he order people that did not deserve it to be put tp deatj, yes or no?

Did Umar even read the Quran once, Yes or no?

What are you trying to pull? That the Quran says that prophets only choose infalible friends? try reading this verse:

[Shakir 66:10] Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said: Enter both the fire with those who enter.

If WIVES of prophets are not guarded in from hell, why should friends be? Ridiculous.

And by the way, that chapter, 66, its dedicated to Aisha and Hafs. Think about that my friend!

Or you know what, try reading some Bukhari:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor (forerunner) at the Lake-Fount, and whoever will pass by there, he will drink from it and whoever will drink from it, he will never be thirsty. There will come to me some people whom I will recognize, and they will recognize me, but a barrier will be placed between me and them." Abu Hazim added: An-Nu'man bin Abi 'Aiyash, on hearing me, said. "Did you hear this from Sahl?" I said, "Yes." He said, " I bear witness that I heard Abu Said Al-Khudri saying the same, adding that the Prophet said: 'I will say: They are of me (i.e. my followers). It will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you left'. I will say, 'Far removed, far removed (from mercy), those who changed (their religion) after me." Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam)."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/076.sbt.html#008.076.585

or why not this one?

The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), 'Come along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I asked, 'what is wrong with them' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group (of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.' I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.' I asked, What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/076.sbt.html#008.076.587

Oh, and just in case you want to know how made inovations:

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 640: 'Ali and 'Uthman differed regarding Hajj-at-Tamattu' while they were at 'Usfan (a familiar place near Mecca). 'Ali said, "I see you want to forbid people to do a thing that the Prophet did?" When 'Ali saw that, he assumed Ihram for both Hajj and 'Umra.

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 634: Narrated Marwan bin Al-Hakam: I saw 'Uthman and 'Ali. 'Uthman used to forbid people to perform Hajj-at-Tamattu' and Hajj-al-Qiran (Hajj and 'Umra together), and when 'Ali saw (this act of 'Uthman), he assumed Ihram for Hajj and 'Umra together saying, "Lubbaik for 'Umra and Hajj," and said, "I will not leave the tradition of the Prophet on the saying of somebody." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/026.sbt.html#002.026.634

Volume 3, Book 32, Number 227: Narrated Abu Huraira: 'Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and ... So, he made up his mind ...On that, 'Umar remarked, 'What an excellent Bid'a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; ... http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/032.sbt.html

Yahya related to me from Malik from his paternal uncle Abu Suhayl ibn Malik that his uncle's father said, "I recognise nothing nowadays of what I saw the people (i.e. the companions of the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace ) doing except the call to prayer." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/003.mmt.html#003.3.1.9

Being a companion of somebody does no mean anything by it self, not even being a wive gurantess one from not going to hell.

Umar was NOT the hero of Islam, he did not know the basics of fiqq, he did not read the Quran even once, he sentenced inocent people to death, he gave people double the punishment they desereved and so on and so on....

Man, he even questioned Muhammeds, (PBUH) prophethood!!! --Striver 17:13, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Omar the most respected Caliph in the west
The only Caliph that westerners study due to his leadership, administrative, strategic, martial qualities.

I was just wonderging. Has any sunni disputed the article on Ali? Like the shia warriors dispute articles on basically every muslim figure including Saladin save Ali and his family? If not, Why do Sunnis dont have a problem with those figures unlike shiites who have problem with vitually every other Islamic figure save Ali's family?

Thanks.

I'll be back later to reply.

--Striver 17:12, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

UMAR DID NOT ACCOMPLISH ANYTHNIG DURING THE PROPHETS LIFE
Could somebody :

A) disprove it

OR

B) add it to the main article?

--Striver 21:17, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Umar buried his daughter alive
Although that was pretty common in Arabia.

--Striver 00:41, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Trying to NPOV the article
Striver, you've been editing the article to be a diatribe against Umar. I agree that the article was somewhat Sunni-centric before you went to work on it, but you imbalanced it the other way. I have edited trying to restore balance. Zora 22:13, 31 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Uhh, yeah... good start... I was wondering if The election of Uthman should be attempted to be fixed... it might be copyvio? or just... really horrible formatting. gren 03:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Zora and thanks for your effort.


 * Hi have a few objections:


 * 1) I want to include that he initialy stroke her sister with force, not giving the imprsion that he "just heard the quran and in no time became muslim". It was a feat from her sister to not give up to Umars will.


 * 2) Demand to give arguments for him being a cowered. Including him not killing anybody and fleeing Uhud after Hudaibya.


 * 3) Demand to include him questioning the prophet, and not setling with his answear.


 * 4) Include that Umars daughter was in one of two of the Prophets, peace be upon him, groups.


 * 5) Refuse the title "successor to Muhammad" for Abu Bakr, rather "took power after Muhammad"


 * 6) Ali did not swear aligeance to usurpers, specialy not to the guy that killed her wive.


 * Umar also began the process of codifying Islamic law? Says who?


 * Also, to prove his ignorance i demanad the following two points to be included:


 * 7) tayamum, killing


 * 8) that Umar gave a fatwa prohibiting crying for the dead.


 * 9) and that he made changes to the Sunnah


 * --Striver 12:44, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You said: “ As if Umar was greater than Islam, as if Islam would have been doomed and isolated wear it not for Umar. Well, do you remember this line of Umar "wear it not for Ali, Umar would have perished"? Dont get me started on all the inovations Umar did to the Prophets sunnah, or his incompetense, the guy didnt even know that it is allowed to make tayyamum, even though it has, not one, but TWO Quranic verses about it, and EVEN tough Ammar ibn Yasir reminded him! Even then he deemed it as not allowed! Now, how in the world do you regard such an ignorant man as wise?

Are You kiddng me, Shias are responsible for all the wars and conflits? Are you totaly blinded by Salafi propaganda? It would'nt surprise me if you belived the Ibn Saaba myth to. Lets just ask ourself who started this conflicts, and if they where Shia:”

My reply:

The Sunna have never said that Umar is greater than Islam, but I would like you to remember when the Prophet made duaa to Allah and asked him to strengthen and reinforce Islam with one of the two Umars. Due to that Allah responded to the duaa resulting in Umar declaring his Islam. You also claim that Umar did not know that it is allowed to make “tyamum”, please provide your evidence and proof.

You also insult the great sahabi Umar Al Farook by accusing him of ignorance, how can ignorance be able to defeat the two greatest empires in human history. If this is ignorance, then it must be the greatest ignorance the world has witnessed.

Of course the Shia are responsible for all the friction and disunity amongst the Muslims. The Shia who have always had a grudge against the muslims for destroying the Evil Persian Empire that you are part of. Imam Ali was killed by his own Shia, and the Imam Hussain was killed by Shia in Basra and Kuffa. The Shia (Fatimis) fought with the crusaders against the Muslims, and fought with the (Tartars) against the Muslims, and today we see them fight with the Americans against the Muslims. Throughout history the grandsons of Ibn Al Alkami have always taken the side of the Infidels against the Muslims.

Now to respond to some of your silly questions:

1)Who Made Fatima Angry?

-Abu Baker recited a Hadith for the Prophet that said “We Prophets do not leave possession over money or property – meaning that Fatima would not be able to inherit from the Prophet” this was in the attendance of witnesses. However, the Imam Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) upset Fatima and the Prophet (PUH) when he wanted to marry the daughter of (Abu Jahl) the head of the Infidels. Prompting the Prophet (PUH) to say “Never should it happen that the daughter of the leader of Iman and the daughter of the leader of Infidels to be married to one man”, resulting in Imam Ali to withdraw from his proposal to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl.

2)Who Made here wish to get burried in secred?

-Please provide your trusted proof regarding this pathetic claim.

3)Who killed people just because they didnt want to pay Taxes to Abu Bakr?

-First of all the “taxes” (you probably mean Zakat) were not paid to Abu Baker, and Abu Baker fought these people because the denied Zakat completely which is a pillar of Islam, and any Muslim who denies any pillar of Islam is a “Murtad”.

4)Who defended Khalid ibn Walid when he "married" (sic) the widow of the muslim he just killed the same day?

-Umar did not like the behavior of Khalid and asked Abu Baker to force him to resign from the command of the Army. However, Abu Baker did not remove Khalid because during that time there was a war with the “Murtadeen” and Islam was at a vulnerable stage.

5) Who wanted to kill people that did not deserve it, just out of ignorance?

-Again you display ignorance of an extreme nature and an unbelievable tendency to twist facts and fabricate historical evidence to suit your own hidden agendas. Where is your proof?

6) Who made fatwas out of ignorance that made people disunite?

-Again where is your proof, and what is on earth are you talking about?

7) Who started to kill people just because he didn’t like the Prophets Sunnah?

-Again where is your proof, and what on earth are you talking about?

8) Who send Abu Dhar, the great Sahaba, to exile, and broght back Marwan Ibn Hakam, the guy that was sent to exile buy the Prophet?

-There is a hadith for the Prophet in which he predicted that Abu Dhar will live alone because he had a simple life and did not care about the “Dunya”. He was never sent on exile, but it was his choice. So please go read some books made by Muslims.

9) Who was so gready and unfair that people surounded his house in disgust and killed him?

-How can a greedy person donate most of his wealth for Jihad and spread of the word of Allah?

10) Who could not bear that Ali was selected Caliph and (a) went out to war against him, (b) AGAINST the Prophets explicit prophibiation and (c) the Koran Surah 33:33, (d) and justifiyed it through wanting to avenge a guy she wasnt even related to (e) wich caused the first civil war and killed over 10 000 people, (f) even though Ali tried to negotiate peace?

-The Quran Surah 33:33 is talking about the prophets wives, are you sure you are reading the Quran? Another display of Shia ignorance.

11) Who neglected point 10, but sudenly when he was dissmissed from his work he remembered that he to must avenge Uthamn, wich resulted in war, even though Ali tried to negotiate peace??

-Muawia never seeked the leadership and he was asking revenge for his cousin Othman in which the killer was a soldier in Ali’s army.

12) Who was about to go to war agains Ali first son?

-Imam Hassan made a (Bayaa) to Muawia

13) Who butchered Ali second son and allmost all his male relatives and friends?

-It is the people of Basra and Kuffa who butchered Imam Hussain and his relatives.

14) Who atacked medina and made 1000 girls pregnent?

-There is not a single Suuni who says that Yazid is a good leader, and yes he did attack Madina, but where is your proof that he made “1000 girls pregnant”?

15) Who atacked the Kaba with burning stones?

-Yes, Al Hajjaj did attack Mecca; however the Sunna supported Ibn Al Zubair not Hajjaj!

16) Who killed the forth to the elventh Imam and killed and persecuted all their relatives and companions?

-This is a Shia matter and the sons of Abbas are the ones who did this and the Sunna were against it.

Finally: Allah said in Chapter 3 Verse 31, the meaning of “Oh Mohammad say to the believers if you love Allah, follow me” therefore the love is to follow the person you love and the Sunna are the only Muslims who follow the Quran and Sunna of the Prophet. I pray that you return to Islam and find the path of truth.

-Abu Al Waleed-- 03 June, 2005

--

Edits
I have reverted Striver's edits three times because... although I do not think the article that he is editting is great by any means, I do believe it is better. Striver's writing in general is riddled with spelling errors and is just an amalgam of random links to hadith... If you ask Sunni scholars they say to use hadith carefully. Even on the USC MSA site it talks about how they never used to release full books of hadith because it took an educated person with a coherent worldview to evaluate them in proper context. I think that borders on original research? Well, I have reverted three times... and we do need a better rewrite for this which I am not qualified to do... but I don't think Striver is either. Not if he keeps writing like that. gren 14:32, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * My friend, i know that my spelling and grama are totaly useless, but the alternativ being to have the article being a sunni dream, i rather have it my rather worthless editing than that bunch of lies.


 * i invit you to edit me and give more coherense to what i demand to have in the article, but i will not settle with having only positive stuff on him on the article.


 * This is an biography of what he did during his life. Im presenting som of it.
 * I demand that information to be presented. My sources are irefutable, they are from Sahi Bukhari and Sahi Muslim.


 * My grama, spelling and so on are expendible, what i broght forth is not.


 * If you want to balans things out, please bring balancing materials if you wish.


 * And by the way, its NOT original research, its the official shia view of Umar.
 * Not all of it, only the parts that can be crossreferensed in Sahi Muslim and Sahi Bukhari.


 * For example, i did not bring Nahj al-Balagha, i did not include Umar killing Faitmahs unborn, i did not includ Umar giving fatimah the mortal wound, i did not include Umar draging Ali on the streets, i did not include Umar wishing to be animal excrement rather than what he hade acomlished during his life, i did not include Umars assaisination plans on the Prophet, heck, i didnt even include Umar calling the Prophet "delirious", even as its in Bukhari!


 * No, im just bringing the irefutable stuff, and its sending chills already.


 * Stop reverting me, just disprove my points!


 * --Striver 14:58, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * These are not issues to be disproved... if they could be proved or disproved then there would be no Sunni/Shia split on this issue. It's not necessarily the data you represent it's often the way you do it.  I know you cannot help your grammar but the problem is balance is often in the language of an article and not just what is being mentioned.  When you make your edits it becomes obvious that the article is taking an anti-Umar stance which is not the common concensus or interpretation on the issue.  I urge you to cite scholarly sources on this issue and to ask some of the other Muslim article editors to help you to write so that this can become a balanced portrayal of Umar.  I know you don't like the man and I really don't have any opinion about him but Wikipedia is not the place to try to convince others of your view about someone.  We do try to stay neutral and encyclopedic and considering our medium it is hard to do that... so, please go to other editors talk pages maybe and ask them for some help in writing what you think should be added to make it stay balanced.  Also, I will not revert again because I have done so three times to show my opinion that your edits as they stand make the article more biased.  Please work with others to help make this article more balanced.  Thank you gren 16:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I will try to get zereshk to help me, she is a shia living in america. Ther are things about umar that are difrent issues regarding their autentithity, and they are issues that they are not disputed. I dont bring forth issues that are disupudet, but ONLY things that BOTH Shia and sunnis consider autentic. For example that he wanted to kill Muhammad (as) and that he stroke his sister bloody. Thing is that manny people dont even know about this things. Zora delete my insertion that he hit her bloody, but i think its crucial to have it included to show that how hostile he was, how he treated his family and also that he didnt just heard a few verses from a far and started to feel all pink and warm and fuzzy, but that he went in and hit her sister, and it was her sisters refusal to giv in that contributed to him not killing Muhammad (as). This is not controversial, but people are not used to see it and think of it att shia propaganda. Shia propaganda is much mor bittre than that, some go to the lenght of quoting sources where he is depicted as a homosexual. That is controversial. But he giving incorect death sentences, forbiding tayamum and so on is consensus, man, im quoting sahi muslim! I get som frustrated when even Sahi Muslim and Bukhari are called shia propaganda or shia POV, when they are the farest you can go from Shia pov! Thats why i have included links to Bukhari and Muslim, so nobody can claim im making shit upp or that im showing shia POV, but nevertheless that happens, people still think im making shit upp and only presenting Shia POV, when in truth its Bukhari POV! *sight* Truth is Sunnis can not refuet anything i say, cuz they KNOW its true, they just dont like looking at it cuz its not pretty. It dosent fitt in the Super Umar picture.

--Striver 17:03, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Gren, you will notice that the Shia rarely refer to the Quran for reference. Also, many will call out "Ya Ali" or "Ya Hussein" instead of "Ya Allah", they tend to prefer calling out for help from dead people, rather than the creator. They worship and idolise the dead, and you will find many praying at graves of dead Muslims (which is banned in Islam, regardless of their status). Most of the knowledge in the Shia sect is based on the ideology of the Persian Empire (worship of fire) and not Islam; Islam to them is only a vehicle for a hidden agenda.

They question every pillar of Islam, and some have the audacity to even claim that Islam has come to Prophet Mohammed (AS) in error! They fought Salah Al Din (liberator of Palestine) in Egypt and Syria before he managed to capture these two states, and conspired with the Tartars and nearly every single force (including the Americans) that has attacked Muslims.

The Shia claim discrimination in many parts of the Islamic world, but they should stop and think about why they are really disliked. They choose to be social and political outcasts in order to indulge in false beliefs that were injected into Islam by forces of Evil, the same forces who modified other great religions.

The Sunni’s will always defend Islam, and will confront the lies of the enemies of Islam wherever the battle may take place, on land or in cyberspace.

--Abu Al Waleed- 08/06/2005


 * Abu Al Waleed, i wont address you historical statements about shia because im not learned enoght to have a oppinion about them, but im sure they have the same degree of NPOV as the rest of your claims.


 * Irans is not the source of Shia Islam, the Prophet, peace be upon him, is.

And about reffering to Iran, just so you know, they prayed 5 times a day while Umar was burrieng his daughter.


 * Your statemnents about Shia belifr are inacurate, and i wont bother to refute them right now.

Suffice is to say that if Shia worship graves if we pray close to one, the Muslims worship the Kabaa when they pray close to it AND towards it, wich of course is ridiculos.


 * I wouldent care if the whole world dissliked me, im not after being "mister popular".


 * Sunnis defends agains lies? They should start with giving the name of a single mushrik beeing killed by the guy they said "participiated prominently in all those battles".


 * You want Quran referenses? When did u give me one?


 * Here, ill give you one:


 * [Yusufali 9:40] If ye help not (your leader), (it is no matter): for Allah did indeed help him, when the Unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one companion; they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion, "Have no fear, for Allah is with us": then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights: for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.


 * In other Words:


 * If Abu Bakr help not Muahammad, (it is no matter): for Allah did indeed help him, when the Unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one companion (because Ali was ready to sacrifice his life); they two were in the cave, and he said to his Abu Bakr (when he started to cry), "Have no fear, for Allah is with us": then Allah sent down His peace upon Muahammad, and strengthened Muahammad with forces which Abu Bakr saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights: for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.


 * And here goes the
 * Bukhari hadith with it:


 * Narrated Abu Bakr:
 * I was with the Prophet in the Cave. When I raised my head, I saw the feet of the people. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! If some of them should look down, they will see us." The Prophet said, "O Abu Bakr, be quiet! (For we are) two and Allah is the Third of us."


 * In other words, "shut upp befor they hear you".


 * Compare that to sleeping in the bed of a man with a destined to be assasinated.


 * Ther you have more Quran refferences than you have ever given, that is none.
 * By the way, dont forget to read about Aisha and Hafsa in chapter 66.


 * Kindly explain this:


 * I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (Imams, not Khalifs)". He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."


 * Oh, and a last word:


 * ...And there was amongst us Salman the Persian. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) placed his hand on Salman and then said: Even if faith were near the Pleiades, a man from amongst these would surely find it.


 * All of it 100% authentic according to you school of thought ;)


 * --Striver 12:06, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)