Talk:Uniform and insignia of the Boy Scouts of America/Archive 1

General improvements
While informative, the layout is confusing to someone unfamiliar with scouting. The major revision would be to separate it into the different divisions- Cubs, Scouts, Venturing and Sea Scouts. Also, a header section on the why of uniforming. Any other thoughts before I take a whack at this? --Gadget850 13:45, 18 October 2005 (UTC) --Gadget850 19:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Some more thoughts on improving this article:


 * A lead in paragraph on why the uniform is used and is important to the program
 * A very short history of the uniform
 * Note that badges and etc are protected by US Code and trademarks
 * Split by divisions
 * --Gadget850 16:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

OK- did the first section. I know I deleted a number of things, but I feel they were not relevant to an encylopedia article. --Gadget850 19:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, in the pages for Venturing and Sea Scouts we've done a good job at covering their uniforming. --Emb021 16:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Except that it is impossible to get Sea Scout dress whites or blues from the Navy since 9/11. I also didn't see mention of the Dickies work blues (though I could have missed it as I was just skimming) for Sea Scouts.  The Ship's Store in Stockton (can't find my link to it right now) is practically the only place to find the dress whites/dress blues now.  Lighthouse Uniform carries equivalents to the adult dress whites.  I don't know if either of those sources belong in the article, but it should at least be updated to reflect the difficulty in attaining the dress uniforms from the Navy. --Heather B.

The wearing of the American Flag patch on the right sleeve is a great idea.I do think though some one should take a closer look at which flag patch is being worn. There is a left sleeve patch and a right sleeve patch. Unfortunately all the uniforms I have seen are wearing the wrong flag patch (left sleve)on the right sleeve. The field (stars on blue backing)is correctly worn to the front, closest to the heart. As it is on the right sleeve with the field to the back it insinuates that the flag is in retreat. {This anonymous comment was posted by 12.189.32.39}


 * There is no "left" or "right" sleeve flag patch. This issue has come up before, because the military wears a flag on the right sleeve that is opposite of the way the BSA uses it.  The meaning that you ascribe to the direction of the blue field is simply military lore.  There is nothing anywhere in the Flag Code or anywhere else that discusses this.  I will keep my eyes open for where this discussion has already taken place, and if I find it, I will post it here. --NThurston 14:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Patches
I propose to delete the section under Patches: it does not really add anything to the article. --Gadget850 18:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep-whoever put it there did their homework, though perhaps a diagram might be helpful, rather than having to visualize (for folks like me who have to think about our hands each time 'left' and 'right' come up ;) ).Chris 19:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

It needs a lot of work. The velcro and glue stuff needs to go. A diagram is a good idea. Patches is not a good title though: it should be Insignia. --Gadget850 14:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree-insignia is better, as some are metal and not cloth patches. And yes, velcro and glue-declasse. Maybe something that the BSA has the clear plastic dangle for the temporary activity patches. But glue-I would have been shot if I glued mine. Chris 22:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've rewritten it and moved it under the Boy Scout Uniform section. -- Scott ei&#960;  06:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Rank badge designs
Propose that these be moved to the individual rank pages with references to those articles. --Gadget850 14:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree-great idea, that way the work and description is not lost, just more where it belongs. Chris 22:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Also seeUser talk:Gadget850/BSA article improvements for some overall dialog. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Change of direction
After working on the BSA division articles, I have found that the uniform information fits neatly into those articles. I am thinking that this article should have the details on each uniform by style, not by division. I have started on this: take a look at User:Gadget850/Sandbox4. The insignia section needs more work, and definately needs illustrations. The Scout Shop section should go into the main BSA article under BSA Supply. Please give me some feedback on this. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:51, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * With no comments after a week, I have made the major rewrite I noted. We still need photos and the insignia section needs some polishing. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I like where you're headed here. Rlevse 23:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. It has taken a while to get the gestalt worked out in my head.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:07, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Corrections
I made several corrections on the page. Of the notible ones I made: included mention of Jamboree patches, how trained strips are worn, and corrections on the Totin Chip/Fireman Chip patches. Totin Chip patches do not belong on the pocket flap. I usually see them worn on the left pocket flap, because its usually younger scouts who can't get into OA that wear them. They really belong on the left pocket, not on any pocket flap. Let's not put in incorrect uniforming rules in an encyclopedia! --Emb021 17:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I had done some cleanup on the Totin' Chit and Fireman Chip patches, but was trying to figure these darn things out. BSA actually sells these now, as well as the Whittling Chip. They aren't covered in the Insignia Guide 2005, and they are so obviously shaped as flaps. Frankly, I think we should remove them altogether until we can get more info. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I've talked to other professional scouters and it's usually been agreed that such patches should be treated as temporary patches and thus worn on the right pocket, where it can fit at the bottom of the pocket. However, I've noticed some troops telling their scouts that it should placed on the left pocket flap and this has gone uncontested, even in material by other councils. --Darthjarek (talk) 02:30, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This discussion started three years ago and was resolved. The Totin' Chit and Fireman Chip emblems are still not covered in the Insignia Guide, but ScoutStuff.org shows them as "not for uniform wear". These and similar emblems are now covered in the article section Non-uniform insignia. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  11:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Venturing uniform
Per the 2005 Insignia Guide, page 33: ''Shoulder loops, green ribbon... Not to be worn on Boy Scout khaki uniform." --Gadget850 ( Ed) 01:46, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

This is a good question, because there are no real "rules" regarding Venturing uniforms, and in our area it is very common practice for crews to use the khaki shirt with green shoulder loops. I will check with some regional Venturing people to get some clarification on this. NThurston 14:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe it also mentions not to wear the green loops on the Boy Scout shirt in the Venturing Handbook. --Heather B.

I found the references on this and changed the section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The green tab/tan shirt issue is something of a controversy. I have talked with some Region and National Venturing people and got a mixed reaction. Some of them feel that this should never be done, period. Others feel that the "choice" clause regarding Venturing uniform trumps the rule. The bottom line is that crews may be officially discouraged from choosing the tan shirt with green tabs as their uniform, but when they choose it (and many of them do), I haven't found a person who would be willing to do much about it.

On a related note, it seems to me that the current text in that section is now very close to direct quotes from the Venturing handbook and other sources. Should we consider more quotation marks to avoid plagiarism concerns? --NThurston 14:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The Venturing Cabinet now states that green loops are not to be worn on the tan shirt. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So now we have conflicting sources on the adult tan shirt with green loops. Since neither of these is an official BSA policy site, what should we do?  As I read the NVYC page, it is apparent that this is not official Venturing policy - recommending Cabela's pants over the official pants, etc. - and perhaps the forceful opinion of one or more editors there.  --NThurston 15:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope- the US Scouts FAQ has been updated to reflect the same. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Just an observation on the subject of the colored loops: Back in the 1950s, '60s and '70s, the "color trim" (for lack of a better term) for Boy Scout uniforms was always green (green garter tabs, green windbreakers, wool jac-shirts, etc.). And the "color trim" for Explorer uniforms was red (red garter tabs, red windbreakers, red wool Philmont jackets, etc.). But, when the BSA came out with the new "designer" uniforms, and they created the colored ribbon shoulder loops, they confused everyone with a reversal of the traditional "color trim" that we had all gotten used to. Another case of "fixing" something that wasn't broken in the first place. PGNormand (talk) 17:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Class B
Regarding the section on "Classifications," I believe that more common usage by packs and troops is to refer to the official button-up shirt with official shorts/pants as the "Class A" uniform and wearing a scouting t-shirt (either custom unit t-shirt or district/council/national event t-shirt) with official shorts/pants as the "Class B" uniform. It is very rare in my experience to find a unit that actually breaks common uniform wear practices into more than 2 divisions. When units make a distinction regarding the official shirt and shorts/pants with all insignia (merit badge sash, medals, etc.) worn for a Court of Honor, they most often modify the term "Class A" with additional terms. Such as "Full Class A" or "Class A with merit badge sash." I'd like some feedback on improved copy before I make modifications. --GreggHilferding 03:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

GA, but keep it short and simple. I was just thinking the same thing a few weeks ago, but I've been busy. I added that section, but I expect I had my military hat on at the time. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 07:48, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * GreggHilferding: That's precisely how I've seen the terms used for 40 years. Rlevse 10:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, but this would be really hard to verify. See the changes I have made to see if it is acceptable. --NThurston 20:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I made some additional changes. If we want to try and cover more variations I had much more verbose copy that I edited down. I agree it would be difficulty to verify, although I think that is just the nature of slang (a bit loaded of a word in this context, but I couldn't think of a better word). I don't see how an article about Scouting uniforms could work without mentioning the "Class A" and "Class B" usage though so we'll have to just work out the most inclusive definition and describe the prevalence of variations.  I think my changes do that, but I am open to suggestions. --GreggHilferding 01:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Names and stuff
Most of my older references show "Boy Scout field uniform", but I'm now seeing "Official Boy Scout Uniform" on the BSA and ScoutStuff sites. I'm also seeing "Official Venturing Uniform" and the same on the various Cub Scout uniforms. Any thoughts? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:48, 12 May 2006 (UTC) Also see --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow - So, do we all stop calling it the "field uniform"? That took a while to get into Scout-speak, replacing "class A"?  --NThurston 20:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, according to a woman I know on the National Venturing Committee, BSA has discontinued use of "class A" and "class B" terminology and instead is using "field uniform" and "activity uniform." -- Heather B.
 * To my knowledge (and the old handbooks in my collection), BSA has never oficially use class as a uniform term. This is a military style term that is used by many Scouters (thus it's inclusion in the article), but it has no oficial basis. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

More pictures needed
This page could use pictures to illustrate the various uniforms and insignia described; I'm sure such photos would be easily obtainable. -- Beland 21:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

New Scout Pants
Does anyone know more about the impact the announcement of the |new official Scout pants will have on uniforms? --NThurston 19:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Just that I myself refuse to buy or wear them-;) Rlevse 20:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey- zip-offs are nice. I have two green pairs (rather darker than Scout pants) that I routinely use for camping. The really goes with the action shirt that came out last year (I have something similar as well). It's pretty popular here in the South. I don't think this is a replacement for the official uniform, but for use as an "action uniform". Our DE loves this stuff– she mentioned once that she had suggested zip-offs to National once and they told her it wasn't going to happen. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The info I have received suggests that they are "official" Scout pants. Do we know if they intend for them to be activity-only or actually part of the field uniform?  I have only heard that these will be field uniform bound.  --NThurston 02:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think they're intended as a supplement to, not a replacement for, Class A uniforms. I still don't like them, but to each his own. I'd much rather they come out with less expensive uniform of the same quality. Rlevse 09:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The pants are listed under the uniforms & insignia section, where the action shirt is listed under apparel. I still think they are a good complement.  As far as price, REI's selection of zip-off pants start at $40. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

i dont know but i think that the pants zip off just a little to high above the knee for my personal likingif they're going issue zip-offs at least make them zip at or below the knee because the ones ji have seen zip mid calf wich i feel is not low enough72.72.39.62 (talk) 01:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Boy Scout Field Uniform
It is my understanding that any adult leader can wear the khaki shirt/olive pants. This would include Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity, Venturing, District, Council, Area, Region, and National volunteers as well as professionals. One of citations at the bottom mentions that adults involved in Venturing can wear khaki shirts with green loops, suggesting that the proscription on this only applies to youth. At a minimum, the introductory paragraph omits silver & gold-tabbed volunteers. --NThurston 22:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

How now? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Conflicts
I'm pausing here for the rest of the week so we don't have more edit confilcts. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't see anything else that I would be working on. --NThurston 17:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Images
What do you think? I need an OA flap, but I didn't have a good image at hand. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I decided to do this based on a typical senior Scout, without any of the pin-on stuff. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

OK- found a good OA flap image (BTW- In Shenandoah Lodge white border is Ordeal, blue is Brotherhood and red is Vigil). --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Would you consider adding a Varsity or Venture strip and/or an interpreter strip of some sort? --NThurston 15:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Done- Signing interpreter strip. I had to refresh the page to make it show.  --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Neckerchief
We now have the neckerchief duplicated in the new sections and under the Boy Scout and Cub Scout sections. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

New Uniform
Looks like this is going to need a pretty major rewrite for the new uniforms that are coming out this fall. Click23 (talk) 17:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This is referenced at the end of Boy Scout and Varsity Scout uniform. We need to wait until the new uniform is released and the guides are updated.  --——  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  17:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)