Talk:Union College

Greek listings
@Jax MN thanks for bringing back the facts about Union as the "mom" of fraternities. I cut the paragraph after that, however, since most editors agree that rote listings of Greek institutions are not helpful if there is no sourcing from outside the Union homepage or the fraternity's own circle. If you can prove that one or more of the Greek houses is significant, then pls do so, but for the most part individual houses fall under WP:UNDUE. That is, they are not significant enough for an encyclopdia. Thanks. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 18:26, 7 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Good evening, . It is reasonable to discuss this on the Talk page, and I appreciate your engagement.  I see you are quite active in creating and improving articles about theological and synodical issues, similarly, I am quite active in the Fraternity and Sorority project. We encounter articles in common when policing and improving collegiate articles.


 * While some Greek buildings (~houses) are significant, relatively few are listed on the Historic Registry of their states, or the Federal list. We find that most Greek chapters do not pursue such listing, though such would provide notability and another set of reliable sources for citation, because of the added burden on operational costs that comes with such a listing.  If you perhaps mean "chapters" versus "houses", I will frame my response toward that understanding.


 * Probably the two areas most prone to bloat and peacock language are the various College or University articles, or the never-ceasing effort to create pages about online influencers, or musical groups or various popular media. --"Popular" here being an adjective and not a definitive judgement of fact.  I sometimes delete sentences or paragraphs that have crept into Collegiate articles for the same reason you have, that they are non-encyclopedic for these summary articles.  Good so far.


 * However, collegiate Greek Letter Organizations ("GLOs"), either the familiar social chapters or the various honors and professional chapters are often far more prevalent than you have indicated. An educated guess might be that on a typical campus some 50% of students participate in such groups, or are tapped for honors for campus societies, even those students or alumni who do not traffic in the various social chapters.  That is, collectively, GLOs are not a minor pastime.  Further, in various past decades they have been the font of the student experience for the majority of students on those campuses.  It is easier to count, on one hand or two, the campuses where Greek chapters do not flourish or where they are banned.


 * Collegiate WP articles do have problems, and other editors may see fit to fight that battle. Top schools all have extensive paragraphs noting scads of repetitive rankings, or detail about Nobel Prize or Fields medalists, all presented in walls of text.  It is common for these articles to show lists of all minor publications, or departments, or notes about various buildings, extolling the fact (for example) that one or another might be LEED certified.  But ought this information be retained, while the notification of the presence of Phi Beta Kappa or Sigma Xi or any of the hundreds of discipline-specific chapters is removed?  Prior to removing content that affects 50% of the campus (sometimes much more, sometimes a bit less), editors should remove the chuff and the bloat about these other, more minor items.


 * In the case of Union, this was a school where the campus Greek system was an early adopter of the Greek (GLO) movement, and continues to embrace the presence of GLOs today. Greeks therefore are and were even more influential, notable, and therefore inclusion-worthy in the article than many of the other topics that are discussed. Our Project offers four templates for how to address the GLO presence in the main article, either with a summary list and citations as was done here, or by listing all the chapters, past and present, or by providing a HATNOTE link to a separate article about the Greeks.  Where a further treatment has not yet been prepared, as in the case of Union, this is simply because the Project team have not gotten to the campus article yet. We are quite methodical, and quite active, and assuredly, will get to this. Wikipedia is, as you know, a work in progress. Jax MN (talk) 22:22, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your extensive answer, @Jax MN, even if I would prefer to keep it a bit shorter. I agree with you that fraternity houses are often vibrant centers of study and community-building. That's the great thing about universities: there are lots of vibrant centers of study and community-building. My concern is that there is no documentation available for most Greek houses and the people living in them in terms of local significance. Simply listing Greeks is better done on separate Wikipedia pages. As an example: could you find neutral POV documentation of any of the Greek deletions I made? --Melchior2006 (talk) 06:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * My previous note went long, to allow other readers context. Responding to your points, I agree that where a larger Greek system exists on a campus, I prefer to HATNOTE the topic and place all but a summary on the main University article. Further, when this is done, I prefer our style of the Cornell Greek list versus the Dartmouth Greek list, the latter of which has too much a tendency to attract bloat. --Again, these are works in progress, and our busy Project group is currently focused on completing the GLO articles themselves.
 * Wikipedia's rules on notability create a bias that secures multiple references for salacious events or all types of misbehavior, but where there are "quiet performers" that don't have strong media citation, these items often languish. Newspapers don't spend much ink on Joe Citizen; their axiom "if it bleeds, it leads" remains as true today as it has been over the many decades.  Movies or television portrayals about regular families aren't made, because audiences wouldn't flock to them. Yet Joe Citizen and the legion of regular families are the backbone of society, and the majority of us can be described in those terms.  GLOs are such quiet performers.  There are approximately 15 million collegians today in just the social chapters.  The vast, vast majority aren't in the news, nor are their chapters, nor the summary of each chapter's quiet but significant work during the academic year, impacting campus and local communities, and broader charities, as well as building social capital and skills for their graduates.  Only a few bad actors get press, and this press sets the narrative.  Schools often promote GLO membership, engaging via multiple connection points that are not controlled by the Greeks themselves. Campus online portals are often cited to prove existence of Greek chapters.  We also have several standard references, such as Baird's Manual that attempt to list those schools where chapters are formed, or where they go dormant. Going deeper, several scholarly articles and books are published annually - I note Marianne Sanua's excellent treatise limited to Jewish fraternities and sororities alone.  Similar contributions have been made that discuss Black or multicultural GLOs and the broader influence of all these organizations.  Union, as one of the premier schools that welcomed Greeks in the early 1800s, has shown a singular history of support of the Greeks over the years.
 * As to neutral POV, the campus portals for what are called "Greek Life" support systems are neutral. They are college-owned, and are as likely to handle discipline regarding misbehavior, as they support Greek presence.  They're in no way a 'captive' entity, controlled by the Greeks.  On some campuses, indeed the relationships have been acrimonious at times. I would also like to ping a couple of our better researchers, to weigh in on this.  and, would you take a look at this thread? , the deletion of solid summary information about Union College's Greeks was a good faith error, and while the others comment, I will revert. Later, we can look for a HATNOTE treatment. Jax MN (talk) 16:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Campus portals are not neutral about anything that has to do with the campus, that includes Greeks but also everything else. Your revert does not improve the referencing since it includes only Union materials., you have edited this page in the past. What do you think? --Melchior2006 (talk) 17:34, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * This type of content is typical in college articles; some colleges and universities have stand-alone articles about their Greek letter organizations. This content is especially relevant to Union College as GLOs are part of the unique character of this campus, which is considered the birthplace of fraternities as we know them today. That being said, the remaining issue seems to be the sources. I have added a couple of sources, both to the intro which references fraternities and in the Fraternity and Sorority section. I hope this resolves this debate. There is plenty of content that remains in this article that lacks sources or is cited to the university's website. The best remedy is to add a notice requesting better citations and give the article time to be improved, not to delete entire sections that had sources, even if not perfect. Rublamb (talk) 17:53, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * just added an "improved" source: a blog. This is not an improvement. --Melchior2006 (talk) 17:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ms. Becque is a noted historian. Her blog is widely read and she is an authority on Greek Life. The fact that this piece was published in a blog post ought not mean you should dismiss it so cavalierly. Jax MN (talk) 17:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I also added The New York Times, the Almanac of Fraternities and Sororities at the University of Illinois (which continues the tradition of Baird's, the primary source on Greek letter organizations for more than 100 years). Dr. Becque's articles are considered reliable because she is nation's leading expert on Greek letter organizations.WP:SELFPUB says "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." That is the case with Dr. Becque. Rublamb (talk) 18:02, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I support keeping mention of it being the Mother of Fraternities, but I'm very uncomfortable with it being in the lede. To me, it belongs as one of the sections in the history part of the article. (And I'm not sure the term "mom" is ever used, I've only seen "Mother".Naraht (talk) 17:42, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * In the lede of the article, I agree. Jax MN (talk) 17:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I've re-read the several additional references provided, and given the significance of Union for the crucial formative years of what became North America's Greek Letter Organizations, I've changed my opinion, and think it fitting to insert this sentence into the lede. Jax MN (talk) 23:18, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * If these sources are much better, then wouldn't it be better to cut the weaker references to the campus portal? Fact is, the new references are not much better. They are simply lists upon lists (Baird's Manual), and that means the WP:UNDUE critique still holds. No one doubts that these chapters exist/ed. Many doubt that they have any significance for an encyclopedia. Comparably insignificant listings would be: prayer groups, study groups, clubs ... the kinds of things found on most campuses. --Melchior2006 (talk) 18:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , the comparison isn't valid. Casual groups, like prayer circles or study groups have a fleeting presence, and little long-term impact. (Setting aside the spiritual aspects of prayer and the individual value of studying.)  Fraternities and sororities are often property owners, offering housing and programing space for dozens, sometimes a few hundred collegians per society, per year, in an ongoing relationship. They are often driving factors of the student experience, affecting more than half of the student body. Readers of these articles include collegians and alumni, also family members seeking information on a family member's legacy, or mementos, or simply a community member seeking context about a large annual charitable gift. Other readers may have looked up the name of the school to link to the diploma or fraternal membership certificate on a physicians or lawyer's wall.  A better comparable might be an historically significant dorm, if such a building and memory of living there would inspire significant post-graduate engagement.  GLOs aren't akin to, say, a Frisbee golf team. Jax MN (talk) 20:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia pages with international lists of GLO members and chapters fulfill all of these functions. --Melchior2006 (talk) 07:49, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , they do, but that doesn't negate the validity of including a summary of Greek Life activity in collegiate articles, nor the short discussion of Union College's singular and important role in the early development of the North American Greek System. Like them or not, GLOs (social or honor or professional) are often a significant aspect of the student experience at thousands of schools. Jax MN (talk) 15:40, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's true, the Union situation is particularly GLOrious. I started looking into it a little deeper and found all kinds of interesting articles about Union College GLOs. --Melchior2006 (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , I see what you did, and have cleaned things up due to WP:WEIGHT, WP:BALANCE, etc. You cited four instances of reported misbehavior by individual Greeks or by members of a chapter. As these have differing severity, I'll comment on them individually.
 * Sigma Delta Tau's Beta Xi chapter, a Buzzfeed report that the sorority had a pledge gyrate on a stage. No jurisprudence here, no civil nor criminal claims; it was a blog essay. Buzzfeed is a dubious source.  The writer even spoke positively about the experience, per the blog post. Result: I removed this item, as it's an insignificant issue, and I did NOT append it as a citation against this specific sorority on the sorority chapter list. We generally support listing bona fide court actions and similar real news, against the chapter on the chapter list, not on the summary university article, nor the national sorority article, as this issue was local, and not systemic to the national.
 * Theta Delta Chi's Alpha chapter, accused in a lawsuit over transporting members as pledges. The 2016 chapter was placed on a year's probation. Result: as one or two generations of members have matriculated through the chapter after almost eight years, I'm removing this item from the body text as an insignificant issue. Had TDX been listed with a broader treatment in the body text, and not just mention of the formation of the national at Union, this may have merited a reference note (~an EFN), but TDX is not otherwise listed. However, I did append it to the chapter's listing on the List of TDX chapters, as it was part of a court action less than ten years ago.  It wasn't suitable for a summary university article, nor for the national fraternity article, since this issue was local, and not systemic to the national.
 * Delta Kappa Epsilon's Theta Chi chapter, closed in 2019 due to reports of hazing. Adjudicated by the school, eligible to return. I'm removing this item as an insignificant issue; it certainly offers far too much detail for the Union article. However, it is interesting and I placed it as a citation against the specific chapter on the list of Deke chapters.
 * Sigma Chi's Gamma Zeta chapter, someone was assaulted by non-members while at this off-campus Sigma Chi house. This is a non-issue, not even newsworthy for the chapter list, let alone does it rise anywhere close to inclusion-worthy on the Union article.  Result: removed.
 * I perceive you either wish to strip away mention of the Greeks, or provide negative information however tenuous. Neither objectives are supportable: The Greeks, especially at Union, are a significant factor in a century and a half of campus life. The relatively minor citations of negative events don't carry enough weight to be noted in the text of this article, but I did copy your citations on two of the four, and placed them as notes for those specific chapters on the respective fraternity's lists of chapters.
 * Or a board of directors or academic departments or athletic teams. There are many things that are common between various colleges. That does not make them insignificant. In this 2018 study of northeastern colleges that includes data from Union College, the researchers found that 57% of the alumni reported belonging to a GLO. As of the fall of 2021, U.S News & World Report says that, at Union College, 33% of female students belong to sorority and 24% of male students belong to a fraternity. These are statistically significant numbers (especially considering COVID), meaning that included this content is not a case of undue weight. For what its worth, I have no connection to Union or the GLOs listed in the article. However, I edit and enhance many articles related to educational institutions and collegiate organizations. There are maybe five campuses where fraternal organizations are interwoven into the social fabric and history of the college so as to be synonymous with the name of the institution. Union just happens to be one of those colleges. As to my sources, they are adequate for including content in an article. Not every sentence has to be backed by significant coverage. Rublamb (talk) 20:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)