Talk:Union busting/Archive 2

Introduction needs immediate clarity.
Due to LedRush's revert, we are now back to the very confused, US-centric introduction. The two introductions are below for ease of comparison. The current version suffers from the following major problems:

1. Style: poor grammar, superfluous referencing, confused concepts, superfluous linking, circular linking.

2. Content: material is exclusively from a North American perspective and contains details which do not belong in an introduction. Lacks a global perspective and reference to the range of activities which constitute union busting.

3. Omissions: lacks reference to the universal human right to join a trade union

Proposed introduction: Union busting is a term used by labour organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies and governments, which hinder workers from exercising the universal human right to join or form trade unions. Worldwide union busting activities include violent suppression, the sponsorship of organizations to subvert trade unions, limitations to freedom of association and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions. In international law, union busting is recognised as a contravention of the right to freedom of association as expressed in Convention 87 (1948) of the International Labour Organisation (ILO).

Current introduction: Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and trade unions to describe the activities that may be undertaken by employers, their proxies and in certain instances states and governments in opposition to trade unions (see Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (1968)). Although freedom of association in the workplace is protected by the NLRB, activity such as union organizing, Salt (union organizing), Card check, picketing, walkout or notification of an RC petition pending NLRB election procedures can trigger employer anti-union activity.

[Strike breaker]] organizations are also considered in opposition to trade unions especially during contract negotiations when established unions may declare a strike in order to pressure an employer to agree to a contract. Employers faced with a strike action may try negotiation to a settlement, outwait the strikers, hire strike breakers, or act in some combination of these options. Established unions are most vulnerable to an employer's opposition to trade unions or union busting when labor unions undertake job actions such as a strike.

Other terms used to describe union busting or opposition to trade unions are: union avoidance, preventive labor relations, anti-union, counter union organizing, union free, and counter trade union recognition.

The key problem at present is the insistence by User:LedRush and User:Jbowersox on an extremely narrow definition of union busting in geogrpahic and historic terms and in contemporary understanding of the practice.--Goldsztajn (talk) 07:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I came here by chance, but see the point about world-viewpoints. Part of WP:NPOV is avoiding systemic bias, including geographical bias. Accordingly, I have added a globalize tag with USA specifications, which should not be removed until systemic bias is resolved. For more on countering systemic bias, see WP:BIAS.


 * I would also remind people that the lede should be used to summarize the article, not to introduce issues not touched upon on the text or to connect to possibly related articles: for that we have the "See Also" section and the actual text of the article.


 * Furthermore, the current version, besides issue with grammar and repetitive blue links, makes claims not supported by sourcing and even irrelevant to the topic at hand. Most clearly, rather than presenting facts in a neutral fashion, it has a decidedly unsympathetic view of unions - this should be corrected to reflect the previous, neutral tone and narrative. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 08:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that. I'm not sure I understand the "unsympathetic view of unions" comment. Yes, it needs work. Most of the article quotes (Martin Levitt and Blackjack) used to describe and illuminate US labor history, legislations, anecdotal stories and union busting techniques. Dr. John Logan's papers also describe U.S. firms, unions, and employer organizations. The prolific and redundant use of Martin Levitt's experience as a union buster should be greatly reduced in order to accomplish some form of globalization. There's no reference at all to UK's Employee Relations Act and its different iterations from 1999 to 2004 to understand the advent of US consultants being invited to work there. It gets pretty complex. Employer controlled unions? Violent suppression? Suppression of what and where? Anti union activity barely exists without corresponding organizing activity so the triggers need to be included. The UK and US are not in the business of violent suppression. Going to sleep now.....hopefully I don't dream about this.Jbowersox (talk) 09:00, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You are obviously confusing a limited article Union busting with a wider article opposition to trade unions. Go there. --Cerejota (talk) 13:23, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is clear the introduction needs to be replaced immediately. I suggest returning to the proposed version above, which is factually correct, concise and a proper introduction.--Goldsztajn (talk) 11:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The proposed language is POV and doesn't accurately reflect what's in the article. Recently the tone on this board has turned condescending and belligerent and has made simple changes difficult....if the current language has grammar problems or is over-linked, let's fix it.  Using it as a pre-text to make dramatic changes to the article doesn't help anyone, nor does quickly and angrily pushing for changes which will face obvious resistance.  I've spent a lot of time trying to clean up this article and still only gotten about 1/3 of the way through it (I just spend 20 minutes at a time).  I've tried to keep the ideas and language of the guy who wrote most of this article (sorry, I forgot your name) while fixing the amount of quotes and pregnant language.  This process has been smooth and has reaped some rewards.  Let's just try to cool down, have some open discussions where different people's concerns are addressed, and agree to some middle-ground language.  No one wants to keep this US-centric or omit references to international law...we just want it done in a NPOV way.


 * Listen, we obviously have some different opinions of unions and union busters, but we should be able to honestly and openly reach consensus about a NPOV way of presenting all relevant encyclopedic content.LedRush (talk) 21:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Please explain why you consider the three sentence proposed introduction as POV and how it doesn't accurately reflect what's in the article. Just declaring them so is not enough: you should explain why you see them as so. It is not obvious to me.


 * have some open discussions where different people's concerns are addressed, and agree to some middle-ground language.


 * No, middle ground language is non-neutral language. What we need is facts of the term "union-busting". This not a labor negotiation, this is an encyclopedia. While some process of compromise is needed, specially at the systemic level, the more discrete a piece of information is the more . Civil POV-pushing is still POV-pushing, highly frowned upon.


 * It is a decidedly unneutral term, just like marxism, nigger or pacifism are decidedly unneutral terms. As in those articles, the dominant perspective is that of the people who developed and adopted the term. For example, pacifism is not the place to discuss the topic in "middle-ground" language, and incorporate views of pro-war people. It is a place to neutrally present the views of pacifists, with due weigth consideration to criticism of pacifism. There is a signnificant difference between neutrality and middle ground.


 * We must present the facts around the term neutrally, but we are under no requirement to reach "middle ground" anything. The general article for information on a decidedly non-union view goes into opposition to trade unions and even in labor relations etc. Neutrality is not advocating or presenting opinions as facts, neutrality never means "middle-ground". We can achieve a middle ground as editors to make editorial desicions, but not a "middle-ground language" taht waterdowns the facts. Nigger is "nigger", you cannot middle ground that, and so Union busting is "union busting" and you cannot middle ground that.


 * No one wants to keep this US-centric or omit references to international law...we just want it done in a NPOV way


 * Then the current intro fails in all of those respects, and the proposed one doesn't. For example, the "althought" part is complete original research that is to boot, off-topic and non-global: this article is about the history and usage of the phrase "union busting" on the part of labor and others, not about the general resolution of labor disputes in the USA (which is made clear by references to the NLRB). Again, other relevant articles cover this topic. Please be advised the majority of english speakers are not located in the USA, and that the majority of editors and readers of english wikipedia have English as a second language and are located outside the USA. To a reader in India, the NLRB is irrelevant unless you are specifically talking of the articles in Category:History of labor relations in the United States.


 * I do not care much about this topic, but I can tell you that the current path is not helping our readers adquire a greater understanding of this term - which should be a simple encyclopedic matter. The previous version had some issues, but the way they are being "resolved" is worse. We are writing an amateur global NPOV encyclopedia here, not a blog for argument/counterargument of professionals of labor disputes. --Cerejota (talk) 13:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I have stated my reasons clearly above, and I find your misrepresentations of my positions quite rude.LedRush (talk) 14:16, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Rather than just get angry at the tone of the discussion here, I should try to be more constructive. Hence, the following counter proposal:

Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right, union busters employ a range of legal and illegal activities to subvert trade unions, such as sowing discontent and mistrust within the union, filing legal challenges, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of like-minded organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions.

Other terms used to describe union busting or opposition to trade unions are: union avoidance, preventive labor relations, anti-union, counter union organizing, union free, and counter trade union recognition.

The new first proposal above incorrectly implied that it is the goal of union busters is to contravene the universal right to form unions, a proposition for which I have seen no evidence. At most they wish to hinder the creation of a specific union, not attack the universal right. My proposal explains that it is a universal right, but that union busters can limit this right in legal and illegal ways, which should be non-controversial. I removed the last sentence (In international law, union busting is recognised as a contravention of the right to freedom of association as expressed in Convention 87 (1948) of the International Labour Organisation (ILO)) for two reasons: Firstly, I couldn't find where in the reference the statement is supported. Secondly, while this article requires an international perspective, union busting occurs in a legal manner throughout the world. Any statement that implies union busting is illegal everywhere must be tempered with an explaination of what laws/interpretations allow it to be so widespread in a legal form.

Anyway, I don't doubt that there will be much to find wrong in this proposal, but I feel I have made a substantial step towards reaching a compromise that will serve this article well, and I hope it is taken in that way and responses are made with the same goal in mind.LedRush (talk) 15:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * LedRush....thank you for your well thought out argument. I think your proposed intro and supporting explanations are very good.  However, most of what you listed are legal...not illegal.  I believe if "illegal" is to be used it must be separated and illegal activity delineated.    I will have to return to this later but I wanted to point out that one of the major issues about the term "union busting" is that it is "legal" activity but the term alone tries to inform a reader of something else.  It is quite legal in the US and protected by the NLRB for a company to promote union free policy.   It is also legal for it to communicate its position on unions and it is legal to present to its employees in the throws of an aggressive organizing campaign everything that it knows about the union, its strike record, its dues, its restrictive work rules, its politics, its USE of dues as payments and bonuses to union bosses etc etc.  It is NOTlegal, however, to tell an employee NOT to join a union.  But most employers are quite ill informed about labor law and don't have trained labor relations specialists on staff and that is precisely why they hire attorneys and consultants for all their communications  during organizing drives so as NOT to break law.  But I  must come back later.  I believe you are close to a very acceptable intro paragraph.Jbowersox (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks LedRush for working with my proposed intro. My rewrite (changes explained below):

Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. Despite the right to join and form trade unions being recognized as a universal human right, union busters employ a range of activities to subvert the exercising of this right, including sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions.

1. in first sentence, need to add the word "joining" as is a different activity than organising or maintaining a union (i should have included this in the first version).

2. change "while" to "despite".

3. drop "legal and illegal" - too many conflicting issues there.

4. insert "the exercising of this right" -- see below.

5. "sowing discontent and mistrust within the union" to "sowing discord amongst union members" -- clearer and less words

6. "filing legal challenges" to "challenging unions via law courts" -- North American English (NB: the former has two meanings--implies one could file illegal challenges for a non-USA English speaking person), trying to address LedRush's need to say there are "legal" ways to union bust.

7. change "like-minded organizations" to "anti-union organisations", the first is too vague and not clear as to what the like-minded applies (ie like-minded to what or whom?).

8. Completely drop last sentence as very USA-centric and basically descriptive of and mostly derived from the professional union busting firms in the USA.

Explanation for point 4, LedRush wrote: The new first proposal above incorrectly implied that it is the goal of union busters is to contravene the universal right to form unions, a proposition for which I have seen no evidence.

in reference to this sentence: Union busting is a term used by labour organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies and governments, which hinder workers from exercising the universal human right to join or form trade unions

The second does not imply that the goal of union busters is to contravene a specific right, the sentence states a factual matter, that is the actions of union busters hinder the exercise of the right. It is axiomatic and requires no evidence. It is no different than saying censorship hinders the right of people to exercise freedom of speech.--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Great, it looks like we've made real progress here. Thank you for a reasoned thorough (yet concise) reponse.  I am generally willing to accept most of the 8 counter-proposals, I do have some comments and would like some further discussion about a couple.

Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right, union busters employ a range of activities to subvert trade unions, including sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions. Other terms used to describe union busting or opposition to trade unions are: union avoidance, preventive labor relations, anti-union, counter union organizing, and union free.

2. By changing "while" to "despite" we are again using language that makes it seem that union busters' goal is to stop someone from having a right. "While" is a neutral word, while "despite" carries with it a connotation that the something being done is wrong (whatever follows the despite clause) is negative, especially when the feeling is that whatever is in the "despite" clause is positive (like a universal right). Also, it is slightly awkward, though I am sure that could be easily changed.

4. "the excersing of this right". There are two problems with this. Firstly, it is awkward and not good use of language. But that is probably easily fixed. The second problem I have is more important. The goal of union busting is to prevent people from joining and organizing unions, not to stop people from excercising a right. Of course you are correct about your literal interpretation of the language, but I am talking about the effect of the choice of words on the reader. When they read that a union buster prevents people from joining or organizing unions, there are few connotations for people who come into this topic without a preconception on whether that is good or bad. When they read that union busters prevent people from excercising their rights, the immediate inference is that union busters are evil. I believe this is a choice between conveying the same information to the reader in two ways: one is NPOV and the other had very negative connotations.

8. I don't believe the list is US centric (see my findings below), but if it is, let's add non-US names. There have been long arguments here about whether the name of this article alone is POV pushing, as the title union buster is not used by union busters but by unions. I am not suggesting changing the title of the article (as others have) but merely giving some other names by which non-union people often refer to the subject of our article (I deleted one of the terms because I found it wasn't used often).

There are some other changes that I am not crazy about ("anti-union" is too negative when there is another choice of words, the legal change makes the process sound more antaganostic), but in the spirit of compromise I've decided to accept these and focus on larger issues within the language.LedRush (talk) 15:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The following are just one or two of the many examples about the usage of the terms outside of the US:


 * "Union Avoidance" in Europe and the UK http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=320662


 * "Preventative Labor Relations" in Australis and Indonesia http://www.learn4good.com/jobs/language/english/search_resumes/hr_and_recruitment/indonesia/cv/267241/


 * "Anti-Union" in Europe http://www.fessrilanka.org/fes/links/pdf/eati.pdf
 * "Anti-Union" in Spiegel (about Europe/Poland) http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,474089,00.html


 * "Counter Union Organizing" in world socialist website, in article about Canada http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/wkrs-j27.shtml


 * "Union free" workplace is everywhere, but this is in the world socialist webstite in an article about South Africa.


 * LedRush (talk) 16:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Re point 2: It's not worth disagreeing any further on this. Re point 4: The problem of language is the result of the fact that the first proposal was not acceptable to you (where the language was much clearer).  As for the other points you raise on this I do not agree. I have made a very clear case on this issue which has never been contested.  First you and Jbowersox incorrectly questioned the universal human right to join trade unions and now you state the "literal" interpretation of the words are correct.  You say the version I wrote creates an impression of "evil" actions, this is simply a POV statement and not an adequate response, unfortunately all your arguements around this issue are grounded in your personal reaction.  The points Cerejota made above, about the difference between middle-grounding (what you are trying to do) and neutrality are important.  I would ask you to read this, reread the comments above and reconsider.  Re point 8: Being US-centric on something doesn't mean it doesn't exist outside the USA, it just means something that is overwhelmingly related to the USA.  As I indicated above in regard to the 10:1 ratio of the terms union busting to union avoidance in Google News, the preponderance is clear.  Because there are examples of these terms in other geographic contexts does not nullify the argument, it is about relative weight.  (I'd also note that the socialist website you cite is from North America and one of the citations is a personal resume of an HR manager).  Moreover, these terms are of recent US-coinage. My version would thus stand as this:
 * Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right,(footnote to UDHR) union busters employ a range of activities to subvert the exercising of this right, including sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions.


 * --Goldsztajn (talk) 00:47, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Alas, we didn't really make too much progress this time. Unfortunately you have not really addressed my position on #4.  It is not that the information isn't correct, it is that it is a strong POV.  My language is clearer and neutral, as explained above and repeated below.


 * The goal of union busting is to prevent people from joining and organizing unions, not to stop people from excercising a right. Of course you are correct about your literal interpretation of the language, but I am talking about the effect of the choice of words on the reader.  When they read that a union buster prevents people from joining or organizing unions, there are few connotations for people who come into this topic without a preconception on whether that is good or bad.  When they read that union busters prevent people from excercising their rights, the immediate inference is that union busters are evil.  I believe this is a choice between conveying the same information to the reader in two ways: one is NPOV and the other had very negative connotations.


 * I hope that you can understand my view and address my points. Also, on #8, the socialist website is international (look at the where all the contributors are from).  But in the end, you also haven't really addressed my point.  The terms are clearly used outside of the US, and if you feel that this has too much of a US-bias still, you are free to add other words.LedRush (talk) 01:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem is not understanding, the problem is disagreement and a refusal to engage with the fact that how you argue is inappropriate for wiki. I understand the point you are making, but you refuse to recognise that the point you are making is based on a personal reaction to the text.  The text and phrasing is neutral and expresses clear facts.  You have not shown  in any way in a manner appropriate to wiki why this is not the case.  Your only evidence that the proposed text is not neutral are your personal reactions, anecdotal statements based on your views and middle-grounding (using terms such as "good", "bad", "evil", highlights this).  Union busting is the denial of a universal human right.  Whether or not an employer consciously intends to deny the right, the result of union busting is the same, the right to join and form a trade union is hindered or prevented, ie the exercise of the right is subverted.  It is a simple fact.  It doesn't matter whether you don't like the fact or not.--Goldsztajn (talk) 03:48, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * How do you propose to conclusively prove that language isn't or is from a neutral point of view? Of course this cannot be done.  I find your accusation that I am refusing to recognize your point (I have done so explicitly) and that my arguments are inappropriate for wikipedia (they are not...they are exactly the type of arguments that should be made regarding POV) insulting and not conducive to constructive editing.  Your argument that your language is factually accurate is irrelevant.  My proposed language is also factually accurate.  So now the question becomes which is better for a reader of Wikipedia and under Wikipedia guidelines.  I have made a strong case, per Wikipedia policy, that my language is NPOV and yours is POV.  You have not yet attempted to rebut it.  I would appreciate a civil and constructive response.LedRush (talk) 04:41, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding the terms: doing a Google search of WSWS "union busting" turns up 287 hits, "union free" turns up 22 (many of which do not relate to anti union activities, rather they describe a place free of unions), "union avoidance" turns up 1. The point is about relative weight of use and the origin of use.  You still have not shown in relative terms anything that suggests these phrases are used to an equal extent.  Regarding the source:  WSWS is primarily North American in origin (the content may not be, but then if you read the New York Times you still get US English, even on the international pages).--Goldsztajn (talk) 04:17, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you now changing your argument? Your proof is the number of hits on the WSWS?  That is not helpful to the discussion.  (a socialist website using pro-union language is not surprising).  The argument is about if the usage of the other terms is prominent enough to help a reader of Wikipedia.   Google hits of some of these terms end in the hundreds of thousands:  (Union free gets 783k, anti-union gets 517k, union avoidance gets 48k).  Yet union buster only gets 36k...fewer than some others by more than 20 times!
 * Your original argument was that the terms were US centric. I have proven that they are used overseas as well, yet that doesn't even need to be demonstrated.  If you are worried about US v. international balance, add more international terms.  But don't punish the reader of the article by leaving off terms that are many times more common than the one that is the title of this article.LedRush (talk) 04:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * My arguement has not changed, the words are used to a lessor extent to describe union busting and moreover they are US prevalent terms. You brought WSWS into the argument.  You leave out the term union busting: 242k, union free has multiple meanings as i described above, the first page of the Google search makes that very clear, so the numbers for that are just not relevant. Anti-union is a term to describe many things beyond union busting (although it includes union busting).  As for the terms that the union busting firms employ, I would add to my argument the following example of USA specificity, try a Google search for "Preventive Labor Relations" (US English) vs "Preventive Labour Relations" (International English).... 2410 to 5 hits respectively.--Goldsztajn (talk) 05:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The terms are unquestionably in heavy use, some in heavier use than the title of the article. If you think the base problem is that the list is US centric, add to it.  We do not delete useful and accurate information just because while it is used all over the world, it is used more in the US.LedRush (talk) 05:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think the base problem is that the list is US centric, the problem is the list, because there are not other terms to replace union busting. The terms (union avoidance, preventive labor relations, counter union organizing) in the list that are specific replacements for union busting (rather than the general notion anti-union), are clearly specific to the US union busting firms. In the case of "union free" I argued above that had multiple meanings (but for the record....of the top 10 listed on the union free search half are either the US union busting firms or nothing whatsoever to do with union busting...."THE STATES WANT TO SECEDE FROM THE UNION - FREE VT!"...).--Goldsztajn (talk) 05:42, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess I still don't see what you're arguing. Is your argument that the items on the list are US-centric and shouldn't be used?  That's what it looks like to me, but I feel I have demonstrated: 1. that they may have heavier use in the US, but there are many examples of international use; and 2. the remedy isn't to delete heavily used terms, but to add more international ones.  You don't delete content just because it is primarily used in one country.  The goal of Wikipedia is to have an encyclopedia in which people can go to learn about a subject.  Deleting heavily used terms because they are predominantly used in one area of the world (the area where the activity itself is most prevalent and developed).  If your argument is something different, could you please tell me again?LedRush (talk) 06:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There are no alternative terms which are not US centric and not the sourced from the union busting firms to the phrase union busting. In terms of the Google search terms the only phrase which comes near union busting is "union free" and, as repeatedly argued, it has multiple meanings in a Google search so the numbers are inconclusive.  Of course you delete content from the introduction when it is only used in one country.--Goldsztajn (talk) 06:11, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If a phrase originated from union busting firms, but is still used, why wouldn't we use it? Do we only use terms started by unions?  Anti-union and union free have many, many times more hits than union busting, as demonstrated above.  Perhaps all the hits are not about the same thing, but obviously many are.  Also, I have proven the language is not just used in one country.   However, even if it were, you would only delete info that wouldn't be significant in relation to the article.  Here, our article contends, and sources back up, that union busting is primarily a US industry.  Wouldn't it make sense that the terms are used more in relation to it?  Much of the article is about these firms, for better or for worse.  Therefore, even if the terms were just used in the US, they would still be necessary for a better understanding of the subject.  Seeing as the GA reviews (and others) have repeatedly accused this article of being NPOV, some noting the name itself, it seems that including these terms is essential. LedRush (talk) 06:22, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Union busting is not primarily a US industry. Union busting is a global phenomenon.  Firms which specialise in providing services to companies to bust unions is a predominantly US phenomenon.  That's the difference.--Goldsztajn (talk) 08:02, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for History of Strike Breaking
Because we are looking to make this article more internationally focused, perhaps we should make this a separate article ("history of strike breaking in America" and try to condense the current language into a paragraph or two and add 1-3 paragraphs for rest of world (or more, if needed, though I should think the history section should be much condensed).

Any thoughts on this?LedRush (talk) 21:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and created History of Union Busting. I figured it could be a good article regardless of what we decide to do with the content here.LedRush (talk) 21:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It looks like Schumen has deleted the History section and inserted an intro that I had made for the history of union busting article. I made that intro paragraph as a place holder...it really stinks.  Please feel free to make it not stink.LedRush (talk) 00:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Please read and understand WP:SUMMARY. Also you should either rename the article History of union busting in the United States or fix it to present a global view and rename it History of union busting (initial caps cannot be used in this fashion) .--Cerejota (talk) 13:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC).


 * Schumin didit, as good admins will.--Cerejota (talk) 13:24, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Cerejota, I don't know if/why you're being rude or what you're talking about. Anyway, I made the article and wrote a summary that Schumin put into this article (as stated above).  I made the article thinking that if someone wanted to add to the history of union busting they could, and if the article got too long we could cut out the current material again and make another new article that is US-specific.LedRush (talk) 14:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, you are more than welcome to add the international content to either article. No one is stopping you from doing this, and I think we'd all like a more international bent on these articles.LedRush (talk) 14:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

For my part, I think it may be very difficult to globalize this article as laws and progress are so different. But we can try. We will have to continually preface with "In the US" and "In the UK" and "In Asia" etc etc........Its like trying to write about international economics as one world while you have to address totalitarianism, communism, socialism, capitalism etc

Also, in the United States there is no such thing as "employer controlled unions" in any form. That would go against everything in the Wagner Act (NLRA). Managers and supervisors are barred from bargaining units. Someone needs to explain that reference to me......is it Cuba? Jbowersox (talk) 20:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Try stool pigeon or stooge.--Goldsztajn (talk) 00:52, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Is Jbowersox a sockpuppet?
Note this change to the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Union_busting&diff=265628767&oldid=265625731

by IP: 64.81.85.165

Note history of edits from that IP here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/64.81.85.165

Note IP contribution here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARgcroc&diff=227875588&oldid=227603105

Note language, tone and edit history. Rgcroc was contributing earlier to this page. If I understand the above this was as a sockpuppet. Looks like severe COI issues once again.--Goldsztajn (talk) 06:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Can an IP be a sockpuppet? Wouldn't they need to put themselves out as different people arguing the same stuff?  I really don't know.LedRush (talk) 06:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Please view the links. The IP contributions provide pretty clear evidence that Jbowersox is the same person as Rgcroc.  A previous contributor with severe COI issues.--Goldsztajn (talk) 06:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Isn't the last link a statement from IP 64.81....on Rgroc's usertalk page?LedRush (talk) 06:24, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, didn't Rgroc go offline about a month before Jbower came online? Couldn't this just be switching from one name to another? Anyway, I've spent too much time here today...back tomorrow :)LedRush (talk) 06:28, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The point is not multiple accounts, it is what an editor does with multiple accounts. Read WP:SOCK, esp. WP:SOCK.--Goldsztajn (talk) 07:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Check out these excerpts from Rgcroc:


 * OK....I'll try


 * length....I'm trying


 * And now, these excerpts from Jbowersox:


 * election....and unlike


 * hard....this is


 * difficult....just making


 * OK, sometimes jbowersox uses five dots, or even six, again with no spaces. But this pattern is pretty unusual, and appears to be the writing of the same person. Not enough for a conclusion in itself, but the tone is nearly identical, and the subject matter and manner of arguing are the same.


 * But here's a clincher for me: compare the edit history of Rgcroc, and of Jbowersox. They have edited exactly the same couple of articles, and only those couple of articles.


 * I strongly suspect Jbowersox and Rgcroc are the same individual. Richard Myers (talk) 14:57, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Judging (only) from a comparison of content, style, and comparable excerpts, Rgcroc appears to be Jbowersox and also appears to be Oppo212.


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Burke_Group


 * Oppo212 was blocked:


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/Oppo212


 * Can someone explore this further? Richard Myers (talk) 15:21, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Is it being a sockpuppet if you change your username? The two editors don't overlap in time (one stopped using his account completely before the other started using his). Perhaps they are the same person, but is it a suckpuppet? I don't think so, but haven't looked into Wikipedia rules extensively.LedRush (talk) 16:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There is nothing wrong with simply changing one's ID. But that's not what we're referring to. It is the COI concern that makes this problematic. Goldsztajn mentions that Rgcroc had "severe COI issues." I don't know specifically what he's referring to. But i come to a similar conclusion through some research of my own.


 * Jbowersox has declared on this (union busting talk) page, "I am not the Burke Group." If we conclude that Rgcroc is Jbowersox (and i do,) then how do we square that with this:


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Wikidea/Archive_05#The_Burke_Group_2


 * ...in which Rgcroc not only provides intimate knowledge about the company, and defends it at every opportunity, but knows where David Burke goes drinking?


 * Add to that the fact that both Rgcroc and Jbowersox edit only The Burke Group article, and this union busting article, which had a link to The Burke Group. That is this person's only history here -- a singular purpose, all single-mindedly attempting to puff the reputation of a company and its officers.


 * I believe Jbowersox/Rgcroc (and probably, Oppo212) are different identities for the same individual who works for, or with, The Burke Group company, but denies it here. And if i'm right about Oppo212, then the sock puppeteering related to The Burke Group article was flat out dishonest, in an effort to influence a decision.


 * best wishes, Richard Myers (talk) 17:13, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, so I think I got it. 1. Rgcroc has admitted to being affiliated with the Burke Group. While this doesn't preclude him from editing, he should make his COI (if there is indeed one for this article) known. But if Jbower and Rgcroc are the same, that means that Jbower needs to admit his possible COI. This isn't really a sockpuppet issue as the two editors' time on Wikipedia don't overlap.

2. Jbower may be the same as Oppo212. Oppo212 was indefinitely banned for sockpuppetry before Jbower registered his name. So, again, this doesn't seem like a sockpuppet argument, but of COI.

Now we would need to prove that either Oppo212 or Rgcroc is the same as Jbower, and then we would have to ask Jbower if he was part of the Burke group, right? If he says yes, there's no problem as he's allowed to edit the article as long as he admits his COI? If not, and we can prove that the indentities are the same, we could have a problem if we concluded that being an employee at the Burke Group means that you must disclose that info to edit this page on union busting.

Maybe I don't get it, but this seems like a tempest in a teacup. Until Jbower starts acting in a disruptive way, I just don't see the big deal.LedRush (talk) 18:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The point is not multiple accounts, the point is the editor looks to be using mulitple accounts deceptively with regard to COI. Moreover, the history of this editor suggests a single purpose not to contribute to wiki per se, but rather solely to "sanitise" particular articles seemingly relevant to the editor's association and employment, hence disruptive behaviour.  There is very little to doubt that Jbowersox and Rgcroc are the same editor.  I would concur with registering as sockpuppets. The question is register as sockpuppets of Oppo212?--Goldsztajn (talk) 00:33, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * But even if he is the same person behind both accounts, he is not using one, and therefore it is explicitly allowed (and sometimes encouraged) by Wikipedia policy.  Also, Oppo212 is inactive, so ditto for him.  The only remaining issue is COI (not sock puppetry).  I know that Richard has made his COI known on his userpage, and while I suspect Gold Goldsztajn has a COI, I don't really care until it starts manifesting itself disruptively.LedRush (talk) 00:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Please use my complete username to avoid confusion. The above is clearly WP:weasel and borders on WP:NPA.  You suspect I have a COI? This is akin to red baiting.--Goldsztajn (talk) 02:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * At this moment, as far as i know, there is insufficient evidence that Oppo212 is the same individual. Consider, there could be an ID from a work PC, and a different ID from a home PC, and it would be difficult to prove it is the same person, other than through a comparison of content and style. I see definite similarities, but in half an hour of comparing phrases, punctuation, etc., i'm not yet fully convinced. I just consider it worth exploring further. And perhaps someone else has another way to check, which is why i brought up the possibility.


 * As a point of information, i did not flag COI on Jbowersox's web page. Cerejota came to the conclusion separately that Jbowersox appears to be a sock puppet.


 * JeremyMcCracken also believes that Jbowersox is a sock puppet, as stated here:


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Richard_Myers#Re:_Query_about_the_possible_return_of_a_sock_puppet


 * So that makes at least four of us who have come to the same conclusion, that Jbowersox is a sock puppet. I've provided additional info to Jeremy, and i'm looking forward to his reply in regard to Oppo212.


 * I agree with Goldsztajn that a pattern has been established indicating disruptive behavior, if one explores the edits to The Burke Group article and the edits to this article. The COI complaint is compelling.


 * But the sock puppet complaint is also compelling. If someone changes their ID for personal or whatever reasons, that in itself is not a problem. But if they (1) have gotten into some contentious disagreements over editing, (2) revisit the same articles that they had previously edited using their new ID, and then (3) conceal the fact that they are the same individual, and finally, (4) enter into the same sort of discussions under their new ID then they are using sock puppetry to create the impression that they are different people united on one side of those arguments. Jbowersox and Rgcroc are two identities on this very page who have argued much the same points, even if they are the same person having done so consecutively, rather than concurrently.


 * Consider, if i was to do that five times on the same article, then to anyone reading the page, i would have created the appearance that there were five people who all agreed on the same arguments. Doing it twice could be considered just as much an abuse, in principle if not in degree. And the common element is not the practice, but rather, the deception behind the practice. Jbowersox never volunteered that he was Rgcroc. Indeed, he appears to have intentionally created the very opposite impression when he typed,


 * Those of us coming in after the fact have seen many reversions and deletions of editing effort but please let us add to it.


 * Anyone reading that could get the impression that Jbowersox hadn't been one of the earlier editors, which appears to be a lie (assuming that Jbowersox and Rgcroc are one and the same). Jbowersox later bolstered this impression when he typed,


 * I am relatively inexperienced at Wiki skill


 * and,


 * That is precisely why I entered the fray. The tone of this article seems hostile and biased and I am apparently not the first to make that observation based on previous entries and editing attempts.


 * Well, Jbowersox was a prominent individual who made those previous entries and editing attempts, under the ID of Rgcroc. But by such deceptive language, he doesn't own up to them, but rather, creates a sock puppet impression. This is dishonest and disruptive behavior -- not something from the past, but something he is doing under his current incarnation as Jbowersox.


 * Minor point, LedRush, i assume that when you typed "while I suspect Gold has a COI", that you meant something different than what that states? I know that you and Goldsztajn have strongly disagreed on one editing point here, while you and Jbowersox appear to agree on the same point. Maybe this was a Freudian slip, LOL! Richard Myers (talk) 01:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, not a slip. I suspect Gold has a COI, but I don't care as long as he isn't disruptive.  I also suspect Jbower has a COI, though he could also be what he says, a teacher of some sort.LedRush (talk) 02:11, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * (as above) Please use my complete username to avoid confusion. The above is clearly WP:weasel and borders on WP:NPA.  You suspect I have a COI? This is akin to red baiting.--Goldsztajn (talk) 02:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Do not change my edits. It is against wikipedia policy and considered very rude.  I will use try to use your full name from now on, if that is your preference.
 * I made the statement about my suspicion of your COI not as an accusation but merely as a point that I don't care about a COI unless someone is being disruptive.LedRush (talk) 04:22, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I consider it rude how you referred to me. Please revert the edits I made or make the corrections yourself.--Goldsztajn (talk) 05:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I consider it rude how you change my edits and make demands of me. I have told you that I will try to use your full name in the future.  Also, for most people, using a shortened version of a name is endearing and shows familiarity.  You should have taken it in this manner (as almost anyone would), as a way to become friendlier.  But of course, it is your name, not mine, so in the future I will address you the way you want.LedRush (talk) 05:18, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Perhaps if you had thought about the origin of the name you would have understood why shortening it as you did caused offence.--Goldsztajn (talk) 05:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I still have no idea why you are offended by the shortening of the name.LedRush (talk) 15:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

JeremyMcCracken has responded, here, with a sockpuppet filing suggestion:


 * 

JeremyMcCracken's suggestion was in response to this:



...which comes from my counterpart to the conversation, posted here:



I think this is the point where we ask Jbowersox to come clean, to see if we can resolve this before taking the formal steps. I'll start a new section for clarity.

Richard Myers (talk) 08:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Union busting proposed intro cont: "Subverting the excercise of universal human rights" and NPOV
Ledrush claims that the following is not NPOV: Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right,(footnote to UDHR) union busters employ a range of activities to subvert the exercising of this right, including sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions. Ledrush notes there are no facts in the above which are in dispute. Ledrush claims that the phrasing is not NPOV (of course I disagree). Specifically Ledrush seeks to exclude mentioning that union busting denies workers the ability to exercise a universal human right because this supposedly creates the impression that the person or organisation undertaking the union busting activity is "evil" and therefore the statement is not NPOV. That seems to be the nub of all the text above. My view is that the statement is no different than saying "censorship is the denial of the right to exercise free speech". Because of the refusal to accept my the first proposed intro the less clean version was produced. My view and that of Cerejota is that the problem with Ledrush's opposition is it is not based on a claim of neutrality (which would be relevant if facts were in dispute), but rather that Ledrush's arguments suffer from middle grounding. At no point AFAICS has there been a refutation of this. My ideal version of the intro, in terms of clarity, would be this: Union busting is a term used by labour organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies and governments, which hinder workers from exercising the universal human right to join or form trade unions. Union busting activities may include the sowing of discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions. However, I propose that the intro be this: Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right,(footnote to UDHR) union busting subverts the exercising of this right via the sowing of discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions, among other activities. --Goldsztajn (talk) 08:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure why this got a new section, or why we are only discussing one of the issues here, but ok. I would point anyone to the discussion above in which I have compromised good, neutral language for some language that is POV merely as a way of finding a text that, while not perfect, is something all editors can agree on. The claim that I am suffering from the logical fallacy of middle grounding is a red herring and, quite honestly, insulting. For that reason, I have ignored it. In order to reach consensus, I am willing to accept some of the POV language that editors here have provided rather than take a more antagonistic view and just deny any changes to the article at all. By learning about why people want their language (by looking at their interests, not their positions), often you can break a stalemate and gain progress.

Anyway, while I have accepted much of the proposed language for an introduction, there are two major problems with Gold's proposal. Below is my most recent proposal:

Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right, union busters employ a range of activities to subvert trade unions, including sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions. Other terms used to describe union busting or opposition to trade unions are: union avoidance, preventive labor relations, anti-union, counter union organizing, and union free.

1. Gold's language said:  "While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right,(footnote to UDHR) union busting subverts the exercising of this right." The goal of union busting is to prevent people from joining and organizing unions, not to stop people from excercising a right. Of course Gold is correct about the literal interpretation of the language, but I am talking about the effect of the choice of words on the reader. When they read that a union buster prevents people from joining or organizing unions (my proposed language), there are few connotations for people who come into this topic without a preconception on whether that is good or bad. When they read that union busters prevent people from excercising their rights, the immediate inference is that union busters are evil. I believe this is a choice between conveying the same information to the reader in two ways: one is NPOV and the other had very negative connotations. Gold has provided no rationale for why his language is better, though I have argued extensively above why his choice of language is not as NPOV as mine.

2. I believe the last line of the intro, the list of alternate names for union busting and union busting activities, is necessary to educate the reader as to what terms are in common use, to portray a more NPOV as to subject matter, and to summarize what they will read in the article (which is supposed to be about union busting, not the union's view on union busting. The only objection to these terms has been that they are US centric.  I have proven that the terms in the list are used outside the US as well.  Additionally, even if the terms were only used in the US, the remedy isn't to delete these heavily used terms, but to add more international ones. (Google hits of some of these terms end in the hundreds of thousands:  (Union free gets 783k, anti-union gets 517k, union avoidance gets 48k). Yet union buster only gets 36k...fewer than some others by more than 20 times! ) The goal of Wikipedia is to have an encyclopedia in which people can go to learn about a subject. Deleting heavily used terms because they are predominantly used in one area of the world (the area where the activity itself is most prevalent and developed) punishes the reader and subverts the purpose of an encyclopedia.LedRush (talk) 14:31, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The following are just one or two of the many examples about the usage of the terms outside of the US: -"Union Avoidance" in Europe and the UK http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=320662

-"Preventative Labor Relations" in Australis and Indonesia http://www.learn4good.com/jobs/language/english/search_resumes/hr_and_recruitment/indonesia/cv/267241/

-"Anti-Union" in Europe http://www.fessrilanka.org/fes/links/pdf/eati.pdf

-"Anti-Union" in Spiegel (about Europe/Poland) http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,474089,00.html

-"Counter Union Organizing" in world socialist website, in article about Canada http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/wkrs-j27.shtml

-"Union free" workplace is everywhere, but this is in the world socialist webstite in an article about South Africa. http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20080424113729419C250474

For both of these arguments, please read above as I have made only summaries of my arguments here.LedRush (talk) 14:38, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * LedRush--I created a new section because the other one was getting too long and needed a summary as was getting repetitious, and there seemed to be two distinct issues we were debating with regard to the proposed intro (which had forked within the section). These are:


 * 1. whether or not to include in some form the phrase "exercising the right" (continued here)


 * 2. whether or not to include (in the introduction) words essentially promoted by the union busting firms from the USA. (continued in previous section, or create new section)


 * I would prefer these be debated separately, because I think it makes the debate clearer (especially in terms of this talk page), but of course it doesn't have to be. For the moment, I will only address the first point here, and request a response to the suggestion in point 2.--Goldsztajn (talk) 23:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The key point of difference is LedRush's statement: "When they read that union busters prevent people from excercising their rights, the immediate inference is that union busters are evil." I have simply stated (repeatedly) that your argument is a purely personal view and irrelevant. You are projecting your personal view onto others in this case.  None of my arguments  with regard to the introduction are based on what I think other readers will think.  The point of union busting is that the consequence of the activity is the limitation or denial of the exercising of a universal human right.   Whether a person thinks this is good or evil is irrelevant.  It is a simple fact central to union busting.  You have not yet responded to how union busting is different from the terms -Cerejota suggested above.  That is the point about why you are said to be middle grounding.  All you have done is assert you are not.  You have affirmed that none of the proposals I have made are factually incorrect.  You have stated you have a difference on the basis of phrasing.  You have not stated why that difference is not based on middle grounding other than to assert your belief in other people's reaction to the article. Your use of the words good, bad, evil highlight an emotional reaction, characteristic of middle grounding (ie you are attempting to find emotionally neutral language to define something which cannot be an emotionally neutral issue).  Given this, I do not think you or I should attempt to judge the emotional reactions of hypothetical readers, nor will it be the basis of resolving this dispute.--Goldsztajn (talk) 23:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not trying to be insulting, but you still haven't addressed my main points. 1. Both of our phrases are factually accurate.  You have not provided any reason why yours is better, though I have provided two as to why mine is (grammar and NPOV).  2. Being NPOV is not middling nor, just because POV is based on perception and opinion, is it irrelevant.  I suggest you read the section on NPOV as one of the three pillars of Wikipedia.  The following is an excerpt.


 * "Neutrality requires views to be represented without bias. All editors and all sources have biases (in other words, all editors and all sources have a point of view) — what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence. When editorial bias toward one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed."


 * Please stop trotting out the false argument that "personal views" on how neutral language is "irrelevant". It is patently incorrect and insulting.  My language is as factually correct as yours, but it is neutral.  Hence, mine is in more conformity with Wikipedia standards.LedRush (talk) 00:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The argument I keep repeating is you project your personal view onto others to claim neutrality. I understand your personal view, I am not saying you cannot express it.  What I am saying is that you cannot project it onto others.  I disagree with your personal view, not only do I think it is irrelevant, I think it is wrong.  However, I will not engage with you on the basis of "well, no actually I don't think people who read my version will think that."--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The crux of the issue is that union busting by definition involves the denial of a worker to  exercise the right to freedom of association and the right to join and form trade unions. Hence, union busting is the suppression or denial of the exercising of that right.  The exercising of any right is essential to any understanding of the rights themselves.  I have no idea why you find this so hard to accept other than your personal view, which as I have stated is not relevant.--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * How do you think NPOV should be discussed? I think you state your opinion on why it's POV or not and then make an intelligent argument backing it up.LedRush (talk) 01:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * LedRush writes: "When they read that union busters prevent people from excercising their rights, the immediate inference is that union busters are evil." You project a view onto others, but you can only speak for yourself. In this case, I think it is irrelevant what a person's hypothetical reaction might be because it is about a topic which cannot be emotionally neutral.  It will inevitably draw an emotional reaction.   There is no point trying to second guess that.  You argue for the removal of a part of the introduction which I have repeatedly argued is essential to the definition of union busting, you have provided no reason why it is not essential on the basis of fact.  Your only reason for exclusion is that you think some people will have a negative emotional reaction.  Your argument has no grounds for assessment other than more individual personal views, it is simply an assertion.  My argument can (and was) assessed to be factual correct independent of any personal view.  Please use my full username when referring to me or my writing to avoid confusion with any other user of similar name.--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * My language is factual correct and NPOV. Your is factually correct and POV.  You seem to misunderstand what POV and NPOV means, as you refuse to discuss them constructively.LedRush (talk) 04:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The argument is not whether your proposal is NPOV (at least the first two sentences), I am arguing it is factually incorrect by omission, that is by deleting the reference to the exercising of the right you omit an essential aspect of union busting. My repeated point is that your have used an argument to claim my proposal is not NPOV which is based on your personal view (your continued reference to the hypothetical reactions of readers). Do you see the difference?--Goldsztajn (talk) 04:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Alas, repeating a false argument doesn't make it true. Firstly, my version omits nothing.  It states that joining a union is a universal right and that union busters want to prevent workers from joining unions.  Nothing is omitted.  However, the same exact information is presented, except it's just the facts without pregnant connotations.LedRush (talk) 04:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You removed the part, in its various forms, about exercising the right. This is not some embellishment, but central to the concept of freedom of association and the right to join trade unions, which is central to defining union busting.  This point has been elaborated repeatedly with even further evidence below.--Goldsztajn (talk) 05:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Look harder, it's there. The first sentence says union busters prevent people from joining unions.  The second says that joining unions is a universal right.LedRush (talk) 05:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * These were my original first two sentences: "Union busting is a term used by labour organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies and governments, which hinder workers from exercising the universal human right to join or form trade unions.[7] Worldwide union busting activities include violent suppression, the sponsorship of organizations to subvert trade unions, limitations to freedom of association and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions." Your version removed the exercising of the right and sought to qualify the significance of that universal human right.  I accepted that qualification.  I do not accept that "exercising the right" is retained even by implication in the version you are presenting, which is why I have had to reincorporate it.  Also please note my suggestions about not mixing the phrase union busters into the introduction.  My compromise version, suggested seven hours ago, was presented without using the word exercise, which if you examine the ILO material on this, is extremely common. My compromise version still stands.--Goldsztajn (talk) 07:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether you accept it or not, it is a logical fact that no piece of information has been omitted. Also, your "compromise version" below is far worse, as it now incorrectly states that union busting activities "subvert the right" instead of just subverting the "excercising" of the right.  In fact, nothing is subverted.  To subvert means to 1. to overthrow (something established or existing). 2. to cause the downfall, ruin, or destruction of. 3. to undermine the principles of; corrupt.  None of these definitions is accurate.  Perhaps "convince people not to, or otherwise prevent them from" joining a union (or excersing their right to) is better.LedRush (talk) 15:26, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to replace "subvert". I mostly agree with the definition you supply, although given the context of the sentence, the first meaning is not conveyed and the third definition does match the meaning required. The second definition, I see as ambiguous in regard to the material we are discussing (it contains elements that I consider necessary and unnecessary).  If we look at the ILO material, and in general all material dealing with the circumscription of rights, the most common term is the verb "to deny".  To keep this "cleaner" a new proposed version of the first two sentences of the intro is at bottom of this section.--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:11, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * LedRush--why is union busting changed to union busters in the second sentence of your proposed intro? To me this creates a confusion in the introduction, shifting from the activity/phenomenon (what the article is about in toto) to those that carry out the activity (a necessary part of the article).  I would suggest retaining union busting.--Goldsztajn (talk) 23:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I am willing to accept the following for the first two sentences: Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right,[footnote UDHR] union busting activities subvert this right via the sowing of discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions. --Goldsztajn (talk) 23:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

If I may, the premise promoted that "union busters prevent people from joining or organizing unions"  or "subvert" is the problem. Prevent and subvert are POV terms of unions. The term "union buster" in and of itself is incendiary and promotes that employers are universally hostile and evil. As an editor I am trying my level best to work with the term although it makes my skin crawl. What is the equivalent hostile or derogatory term for union organizers used by employers? Is there one? Business buster? No, you will not find it or any other for that matter.... which shows the difference in the manner of opposing viewpoints and how they are directed. History shows there have been violent conflicts between employers and unions...yes....that's a given. But history also shows it is not one sided and it also shows laws legislated all along to prevent abuses. This article is a to be a contemporary definition but uses outdated descriptions from the past. They belong in History of Union Busting, not here. To be NPOV you must include "objective" and factual terms. Employers, their proxies, states, govs & workers etc do not "prevent" people from joining unions, what they do is "offer opposing viewpoints" and yes....once both sides are understood employees may vote "NO" to a union but that is far different from "preventing and subverting". In the US employees vote? Unions are not mandatory. We also have Right to Work states in the US. If there are not different viewpoints advanced during organizing then why have a vote? A discussion about freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and human rights does that mean that only union organizers have that right.....Employers and the employees who share their viewpoint have "equal" rights to speak out for or against unions and/or oppose them. That does not translate to "preventing" and "subverting". Employers do not practice "union busting" as a matter of daily activity or company policy. Instead they REACT to organizing activities (salting, card signing etc) which is why those activities must be included in any definition to make the entire concept of "union busting" understood in an encyclopedic definition. In a perfect world for union organizers, union membership would be mandatory for every worker and any opposition unlawful. But that is not the world we live in...at least not in the USA.Jbowersox (talk) 19:23, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Union busting is a global phenomenon, not just about union busting firms in the USA. This article needs to about all the components which make up that global phenomenon.--Goldsztajn (talk) 23:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Jbowersox typed:


 * If I may, the premise promoted that "union busters prevent people from joining or organizing unions"  or "subvert" is the problem.  Prevent and subvert are  POV terms of unions.


 * Prevent is precisely the correct word. Richard Myers (talk) 00:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Jbowersox typed:


 * The term "union buster" in and of itself is incendiary and promotes that employers are universally hostile and evil.


 * This is spin. It no more declares something universal than observing that there are corporations in the USA promotes the idea that all companies are in the USA. Richard Myers (talk) 00:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Jbowersox typed:


 * As an editor I am trying my level best to work with the term although it makes my skin crawl. What is the equivalent hostile or derogatory term for union organizers used by employers?  Is there one?  Business buster?  No, you will not find it or any other for that matter....


 * More spin. I've heard business interests call union organizers radicals, reds, disrupters, socialists, communists, outsiders, special interests, deceivers, goons, thugs, henchmen, mafia, spoilers, and other terms dripping with sarcasm.


 * Indeed, the term "union buster" is pretty mild, in comparison.


 * Jbowersox states that Martin Levitt's descriptions of union busting consultants is out of date. In my view, Jbowersox utilizes all the Public Relations tricks -- spin, disinformation, fallacious argument, etc. -- that Levitt describes in his book.


 * This is not a personal attack, i don't intend to attack anyone. This is simply an observation. Richard Myers (talk) 00:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

New proposed intro (first two sentences):

Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of actions undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right,[footnote UDHR] union busting denies the exercising of this right via the sowing of discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions. Two changes:

1. changed "activities" to "actions" -- all activities are actions, but not all actions are activities. Eg, if a government has laws which deny freedom of association this does not seem to me to be an "activity", whereas a government or employer prosecuting a worker under those laws would be an activity. I'm not particularly fixed on this, but I think "activities" only implies "active" union busting, whereas there is "passive" union busting.

2. removed the phrase "subverts", replaced with "denies the exercising of".

The extremely poor introduction has remained for over a week now (longer?), serving nobody's interests. I've agreed to substantial changes from my original proposal. I hope this is acceptable. --Goldsztajn (talk) 01:11, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I have compromised far more than you, so your comments about flexibility seem misplaced. Also, your two changes don't address the heart of the problem.  Even my compromise suggestion is too POV for my tastes, and your suggestion is simply unacceptable for a wikipedia article.  I hope you will address some of my core arguments from above.LedRush (talk) 15:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, I want to add a couple of concerns that have been nagging me. The article should not simply state that the "right to join  a union is recognized as a universal human right" and then have a footnote because it is misleading.  Recognized by whom?  Surely many people do not recognize it as a right, otherwise there would not be so much fighting about the right.  I propose that line be changes to  "While the ability to join and form unions is recognized as a universal human right under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights".  That way we know who is saying what.


 * Additionally, it is not Wikipedia's place to decide whether or not the UDHR is correct. By stating conclusively in the next sentence that this is a right, Wikipedia is effectively endorsing the UDHR view.  Of course, that should never be done.  Wikipedia reports, with citations...it doesn't decide which citations are true.  My suggestions above avoids this issue, and is therefore more suitable for the article.  As a summary,

Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, union busters employ a range of activities to subvert trade unions, including sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions. Other terms used to describe union busting or opposition to trade unions are: union avoidance, preventive labor relations, anti-union, counter union organizing, and union free.
 * —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LedRush (talk) 1545, 24 January 2009 (UTC).

The introduction of an entirely new argument at this stage is disingenuous and suggestive of a deliberate attempt to derail any progress here. LedRush once again reverts to middle grounding, projecting opinions onto others in order to assert personal views. LedRush has never shown how these attempts to derail this introduction are not middle grounding. LedRush has never responded to the questions posed by Cerejota, except to claim Cerejota was being rude. As for whether "many people" recognise a right or not is irrelevant, the decision is not up to "many people", it is not a popularity contest, a universal human right is inalienable. A Wikipeadia article is not endorsing anything by stating this as fact. Even the editors over at Universal Declaration of Human Rights get this fact correct: "the Declaration arose directly from the experience of the Second World War and represents the first global expression of rights to which all human beings are inherently entitled." LedRush's interventions here deliberately ignore basic questions and focus on issues designed to ferment disagreement, thus extending the debate, and purely on the basis of personal opinion. Ignoring my compromise to remove the word subvert and my suggestion of using deny is a perfect example of this. LedRush ignores basic questions that I have posed (eg actions vs activities in the intro 1st sentence). I clearly marked the above proposal as "first two sentences", and yet LedRush introduces here seriously contested material (the third sentence) which is being discussed in a separate section (a debate in which LedRush is active). LedRush has not responded to the question about mixing the phrase "union busters" into the introduction. I provided a very reasonable question and an explanation of why I thought this not appropriate. LedRush has not responded to any of the material cited in evidence about the centrality of exercising a right. '''One editor agreed with my original proposed introduction without change. Despite this, I engaged with LedRush. That is, I assumed good faith even though LedRush's was a minority opinion.''' Given the amount of time spent on this, LedRush's actions, characterised by the repeated introduction of irrelevant arguments and the ignoring of reasonable questions, exhibit strong elements of WP:PUSH, WP:BIAS and WP:DE. I am more convinced of this given the new argument LedRush makes, which is reflective of neoconservative discourse in the USA. I have presented a text which is reflective of the most representative and widespread global understanding of the subject. The text is easily backed up by reference to the decisions of the ILO (the world's labour organisation, constituted by the world's governments, workers AND employers), examples of which (below) clearly show my proposed introduction does not exceed similar tone and scope.

The Committee always takes account of national circumstances, such as the history of labour relations and the social and economic context, but the freedom of association principles apply uniformly and consistently among countries.

The membership of a State in the International Labour Organization carries with it the obligation to respect in national legislation freedom of association principles and the Conventions which the State has freely ratified.

19. Trade union rights, like other basic human rights, should be respected no matter what the level of development of the country concerned.

A State cannot use the argument that other commitments or agreements can justify the non-application of ratified ILO Conventions.

The Committee has considered it appropriate to emphasize the importance to be attached to the basic principles set out in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, considering that their infringement can adversely affect the free exercise of trade union rights.

All appropriate measures should be taken to guarantee that, irrespective of trade union affiliation, trade union rights can be exercised in normal conditions with respect for basic human rights and in a climate free of violence, pressure, fear and threats of any kind.

The rights of workers’ and employers’ organizations can only be exercised in a climate that is free from violence, pressure or threats of any kind against the leaders and members of these organizations, and it is for governments to ensure that this principle is respected.

-Freedom of Association, Digest of decisions and principles of the Freedom of Association Committee of the Governing Body of the International Labour Organisation

My proposed intro (first two sentences) now has one further change, I've added the word "free" to bring closer to language above and to indicate the freedom of association component related to coercion and compulsion:

Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of actions undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right,[footnote UDHR] union busting denies the free exercise of this right via the sowing of discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions.

Whatever LedRush's intentions are with regard to this article, the results are clear in regard to the rewriting of the introduction. Beginning with interventions based on complete denial of fact (questioning the existence of trade union rights) to now introducing US neoconservative discourse to justify the removal of material (eg the words "exercising the right", refusing to accept the verb "deny") and middle-grounding (weasel words: "many people") strongly indicates bad faith actions. Given LedRush's behaviour now, I am also forming a suspicion that LedRush and Jbowersox may be working together given the proximity of their appearance on this page and the (now exposed) ideological similarity of both editors. Notwithstanding COI sockpuppets, I would ask other editors to comment on all of the above.--Goldsztajn (talk) 15:33, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems that you have ignored all of my arguments while trotting out some old red herrings. Unfortunately, it seems like you are about to escalate this by trying to be more antagonistic by borderline accusing me of bad faith, sockpuppettry, and COI.  I that I have been the only one in this current conversation who has been willing to compromise and that I have proven that I have the article's best interests (and not POV pushing) as my motivation through hours of edits on this article.  I have already asked for a peer review of the article.  However, if Goldsztajn would like to start addressing my concerns rather than make wild accusations, I will be happy to do.LedRush (talk) 06:02, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is clear LedRush is not reading the extensive arguments being made here and simply acting to be obstructive. LedRush's response is very indicative of the behaviour that is causing the problem.  I never accused LedRush of sockpuppetry or COI.    Yet, the above states as such, thus misleading the entire argument (once again) and demonstrating (again) a refusal to engage with the crucial issues.  At no time has LedRush engaged with a single substantive issue is this debate, other than to assert a personal opinion and derail progress on the introduction.  LedRush has only "compromised" on personal opinion when it was clearly shown to be utterly wrong, the sequence of events is clear.  In reality, is not a compromise to acknowledge facts.  There are no wild accusations, just clear facts and LedRush's continued behaviour only confirms the concerns I have raised.--Goldsztajn (talk) 06:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I would appreciate it if you do not make personal attacks on me. I never said that you accused me of sock puppetry: I said you "borderline" accused me of it.  You suggest I am working in collusion with Jbower, who you accuse of being a sock puppet with a COI.


 * Additionally, you say my actions indicate bad faith. You attribute political views to me without any evidence.  Also, your following statement is purely false and completely unhelpful: "At no time has LedRush engaged with a single substantive issue is this debate, other than to assert a personal opinion and derail progress on the introduction."  If you would like to disagree with  my points, I invite you to address them in constructive dialogue.LedRush (talk) 07:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There are no personal attacks here, simply statements describing the actions of LedRush. It is not a personal attack to state facts regarding LedRush's behaviour.  The facts are clear: the only points LedRush has made are purely personal opinion (and it is one opinion, that somehow the sentences I have proposed would make a hypothetical reader think union busters are "evil"). LedRush refuses to acknowledge or demonstrate an understanding of the difference between middle-grounding and neutrality (refusal to address any of the questions posed by Cerejota).  LedRush has demonstrated a lack of knowledge concerning the issue (eg trade union rights).  LedRush has now introduced an argument which is rooted in neoconservative ideology.  LedRush has denied facts (eg universal human right to join and form trade unions).  LedRush refuses to answer and ignores reasonable questions posed (eg changes in words, consistency of language).  LedRush refuses to acknowledge or consider any of the material presented in this debate over the introduction (eg all the material on the centrality of "exercising rights").  Such behaviour has carried on for a week.  All the evidence is here on the talk page.  Such behaviour clearly exhibits strong elements of WP:PUSH, WP:BIAS and WP:DE. I no longer have reason to believe LedRush's edits here are in good faith.  Given all this LedRush's unswerving defence of Jbowerbox (the editor widely suspected of sockpuppetry and COI) raises further valid reasons for concluding bad faith behaviour.--Goldsztajn (talk) 13:56, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not sure how to respond to soemone who ignores your arguments in favor of making increasingly hostile accusations against you. I have suggested below that Goldsatajn take proper adminstrative actions against me to back up his wild and reckless accusations, and until then focus on the issues.  In addition to addressing my core comments about the NPOV language above, perhaps you could also address my newest suggestion for following Wikipedia policy and addressing the statement of who believes that forming a union is a universal right in the text itself and how that could in any way be detrimental to the article.LedRush (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I addressed the neoconservative argument already, LedRush did not respond to a single point. I have not made increasingly hostile accusations. I have, inter alia, simply noted a pattern of behaviour on this page with regard to this introduction which has grown over time.  My conclusion that the edits are in bad faith is based on the fact that I engaged in good faith behaviour from the start (evidence of which is clear) and that this was not reciprocated.  LedRush's entire position is based on two points: a neoconservative view that rights are not recognised by "many people" and a view that the introduction's proposed phrasing impugns union busters as "evil".  These points have been dealt with extensively. LedRush's continued repetition of these claims in the absence of significantly addressing any of the issues or copious examples I have raised, naturally invokes a reasonable attempt to clarify behaviour.  I have repeatedly listed all of the points LedRush has refused to deal with.  I have responded to all the issues LedRush has raised.--Goldsztajn (talk) 16:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Please stop labeling my points as "neoconservative". It is insulting (and false) and doesn't address the heart of our disagreement.  I have continually offered language that makes the same exact factual points as Goldsatajn's except in a NPOV manner, yet he has not given one reason why it is inadequate.  I have asked him to attribute claims regarding universal rights to the group/document that claims them as such, and he has ignored my argument, choosing to attack me, label me, and insult me instead.  Hopefully he can stop making strawmen and start making positive contributions to this discussion and this article.LedRush (talk) 21:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Global Yes or No
I made a new section because I was tired of trying to find the little "edit" button inside all this text.

To Richard: All the terms you listed are used by both sides except socialists, communists and mafia which were not sarcastic but have been used by union officials. Again...history.....I'm happy to provide a reading list:

1) A quotation from the labor leader David Dubinsky that opens this book summarizes the author's purpose: "Racketeering is the cancer that almost destroyed the American trade-union movement." James B. Jacobs, Mobsters, Unions, and Feds: The Mafia and the American Labor Movement. New York: New York University Press, 2006. xxxii + 320 pp. $33 (cloth), ISBN: 0-8147-4273-0.' and

2) Robert Fitch, Solidarity for Sale: How Corruption Destroyed the Labor Movement and Undermined America's Promise (New York, 2006)

Unions such as International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT), the Laborers' International Union of North America (LIUNA), the International Longshoremen's Association (ILA), and the Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees Union (HERE), as well as many locals in the building trades have a laundry list of corruption and felons and they gave the industry a horrible name and triggered the type of "union busting" described by Martin Levitt. It was a colorful era to say the least.

I'd really like to leave that era behind and ask that you consider doing the same. Can we separate out "History" and discuss more contemporary union busting methods? It might be much more helpful to a new organizer to understand what he or she could expect in todays environment rather than yesterday. Just my thought.

To Gold Goldsztajn: You are correct that union busting is a global issue but this article appears to have been authored about American issues using nearly 100% American citations describing American events. There are several sections that could be deleted to make this into a global article such as "Methods of Union Busting", "Employer Associations" and "Taxpayers" which again describe nearly 100% American events. Review the citations and you will agree. Inside the "Methods" section it is says: The union is not allowed access to the work force during their eight hours of work each day, but the union buster can occupy as much of that time as is considered necessary.[citation needed]  THis was clearly written by an American. The UK and EU allow access. So you would have to add it to be global. The other sections read more global. But not, "Methods" section which uses citations describing the early 1900's and other events in Minnesota, Colorado, Telluride etc. Martin Levitt describes the 1970-1980 era and all that should be retitled "History of Union Busting Methods in America". To be global then slavery in Africa, China, Korea, and Indonesia needs to be addressed as well as Caste "Untouchables" in India and the labor conditions under which they toil plus the lack of child labor protection and sweat shops in China, Korea, and all over Asia and Africa and the continued lack of labor protection and law. Who or what is preventing those employees from organizing? Employers or governments? This cannot be compared to US, Canada, and UK. This article simply does not address the global issues and would become really unmanageable in my belief. However, if that is the prevailing thought I will try to lend my background in history. But I truly believe it would be more effective to keep this article more akin to the original authors' intent describing what appears to be America and Canada. I am a scholar in that arena but not global. Note: I may be temporarily unavailable but will try to check in. I must earn a living and will be accessing via pub Wifi. By the way I see ya'll are talking about me up there in previous posts. If you must, please know I'm a "she" not a "he".Jbowersox (talk) 02:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it would be appropriate for you to completely cease from editing the article for the moment. You are suspected of sock-puppetry by four editors and you are continuing to undertake edits.  This is disruptive behaviour.--Goldsztajn (talk) 03:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there a guilty till innocent policy here? Jbower is making constructive suggestions in a civil manner.  Address the arguments, not the editor.LedRush (talk) 04:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There was nothing WP:NPA about my comment. There is ample evidence that Jbowerbox is a sock puppet.  According to you these comments are constructive, according to me they are not.  Zero-sum game on that one, unfortunately.--Goldsztajn (talk) 05:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Why Exercising freedom of association rights, "exercising" the right to join and form trade unions is essential to definition of union busting.
More to the point about the fact that the exercising of the right is essential to understanding the issue of union busting:

30. The Committee has considered it appropriate to emphasize the importance to be attached to the basic principles set out in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, considering that their infringement can adversely affect the free exercise of trade union rights.

34. All appropriate measures should be taken to guarantee that, irrespective of trade union affiliation, trade union rights can be exercised in normal conditions with respect for basic human rights and in a climate free of violence, pressure, fear and threats of any kind.

-Freedom of Association, Digest of decisions and principles of the Freedom of Association Committee of the Governing Body of the International Labour Organisation, pp 13-14

The entire section of Chapter 2 (Trade Union Rights and Civil Liberties) reinforces all of this.--Goldsztajn (talk) 04:09, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

On terms used by the union busting firms, Google numbers
LedRush had proposed this as the third sentence of the new introduction (for debate on the first two, see saga above): Other terms used to describe union busting or opposition to trade unions are: union avoidance, preventive labor relations, anti-union, counter union organizing, and union free. I oppose the inclusion of this sentence on the grounds that the phrases which are specifically related to union busting (union avoidance, preventive labor relations, and counter union organizing) are predominantly from the USA (anti-union is the only one with extensive usage outside USA), are in general not used to anywhere near the extent of union busting or are basically sourced from the union busting firms in the USA. (I'm not saying they should not be in the article, just not the introduction). The other two phrases (anti-union and union free) are not specific to union busting and are ambiguous. Anti-union does not necessarily imply union busting (eg "even though that employer is anti-union, they collectively bargain with the union" is not tautological) and is not a term specific to those opposed to unions (ie a pro-union person may well say, "that employer is anti-union").

We have debated the extent of these phrases using specific searches on Google.

"Union Busting" produces 253,000 hits.

LedRush claimed that "union free" is the most common with 780,000 hits. This is true only in a narrow sense (well, actually it's the opposite of narrow). The problem is with the search and the ambiguous meaning of "union free"....search through the results and one finds overwhelming references to credit unions and school districts. Where there are specific links to trade union issues these are almost exclusively from the union busting firms in the USA. The vast majority of references are to US websites. Using the clearly more specific search "trade union free" returns only 1,060 hits.

The other terms return the following:

"union avoidance": 48,000 ("trade union avoidance":164)

"preventive labor relations": 2,820

"counter union organizing": 186

Also note the specificity of these terms in their US English forms; spelling the final two with International English produces the following in a Google search:

preventive labour relations: 177

counter union organising: 7

Thus, the "best" ratio of the phrases is 5:1 in the case of union avoidance, hardly a ratio suggestive of equal weight as the proposed sentence implies. The ratios for the other terms are utterly negligible.

Union busting is no doubt a term used by trade unions, but it is accepted and used well beyond trade unions and is used throughout the world. There is no doubt these phrases are in some cases used in contexts outside of the USA and not by the union busting firms, but the overwhelming preponderance of use is in the USA and by the union busting firms (or in reference to those firms' actions). The terms do not have a global or historic meaning suitable for an introduction. I would suggest inclusion somewhere in the section dealing with the USA union busting firms.--Goldsztajn (talk) 13:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There are several problems with Goldztajn's arguments, most of which have been addressed above. The most important is his use of the much less often used "trade union" rather than just "union" to make it look like there are fewer hits than there are.  To see the effect of this:


 * 1. "union busting": 253,000 hits. "trade union busting": 1,710


 * 2. "union buster": 36,000 hits. "trade union buster": 7 hits


 * Regarding "union free" A better number (though one still lower than the actual number of times used) would be a search that would narrow the scope to ensure we're talking about companies without unions...like a search for "union free" and "work" gets 774,000 hits.


 * There are other problems with Goldsztajn's arguments. For example, his statement that there is US English and International English.  This is obviously false.  While British English is used more internationally than American English, many countries, like China, use American English more than British.  In most countries in which English is not a first language, a mixture of both will be used.  My results above prove this.


 * Also, his contention that the google hits result in uneven use of the terms, and therefore the other terms shouldn't be given "equal weight" by being listed in the intro. This is a strawman.  The title of the article is union busting.  Having a list of other terms at the end of the intro is not equal weight....it is incredibly diminished weight.  As long as the terms are widely used, as has been conclusively proven above, they should be included.LedRush (talk) 15:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You ignore many of my points and provide no response. These are:


 * 1. Three of the terms are clearly specifically about union busting, but two are not (union free, anti-union).


 * 2. Your attempt to justify union free by adding work suffers from the same problem as before. Did you not check the results?


 * 3. It is not necessary to qualify the meaning of the word union with the word "trade" in a "union busting" search because there is no ambiguity whatsoever as to its meaning in the context of that search. Again, did you not check the results?


 * 4. For something to be widely used, it would need to be used in proportion beyond the sources from the union busting firms. You provided a list of a few links, one of which is a reference to a HR manager's resume and two of which were to a socialist website.  On searching the socialist website the ratios of occurrence were 20:1 10:1.  The point is not whether or not they occur, the point, as I have stated from the outset, is the proportion.  You have provided no counter evidence which refutes this point.  Listing some occurrences is not a refutation.


 * In terms of International English, in general it corresponds to British English spelling. I don't accept your claim on China (but that is irrelevant). What is relevant is your statement ignores the fact that a vastly larger number of people utilise English in India derived from British form (and to be doubly clear, we are talking about the utilisation of the language, not the reading of the language).
 * --Goldsztajn (talk) 01:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion: Look at the search terms used by union busting sites as well as the terms that bring up "sponsored links". Union buster or busting does not bring up much more than union sites and blogs. Union avoidance and preventive labor relations or counter union organizing (and other such terms) bring up the industry sites. Journalists, students, and industry need to locate information both ways. The use of the word "trade union" invariably searches sites from EU and will be followed by .co.ukJbowersox (talk) 18:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Goldsztajn, I have not ignored your comments, I feel I have refuted them. I will try again, briefly.
 * 1. "union free" is about not having a union in the work area...I changed the search to add the term "work" to narrow down results.
 * 2. I checked the results, most are valid.  My point has never been that every hit is an example.  But many of the huge number are.  Remember, all I have to do is demonstrate the words are used widely, not that they are used by a factor of more than 30:1.
 * 3. You have completely missed the point. Adding the word "trade" to other searches reduces the number of hits to far below the actual number.  We know "union busting" hits are almost always about union busting, but adding the term "trade" to it reduces the efficacy of the search to about 0.67%.  That means that the actual number of hits is 148 times the search results.  If we assume "trade union free" gets all accurate hits as you have postulated, and use the ratio for "trade union busting" (1,060 hits), we can conservatively estimate that 157,000 of the hits for "union free" are about union busting.  Of course, if your claim is accurate that the term is used more heavily in the US than abroad, unlike union busting, than the actual number would be much higher as adding the term "trade" before union in america is rarely done.  That means, at the very worst, making all assumptions against the term "union free", it is used about 62% as often as union busting.   However, as I have explained above, I believe that number is a gross underestimation.
 * 4 Posting proportions from socialist websites is not useful. Of course they use pro-union terms.  If I show you the proportions from union busting firms, that would also not be helpful to show that the pro-management terms are used 10 times as much as pro-union ones.  However, all I need to show is that the terms are widely used, period.  I have conclusively done this.

Also, your statement that I "ignore the fact that a vastly larger number of people utilise English in India derived from British form (and to be doubly clear, we are talking about the utilisation of the language, not the reading of the language)" is really weird. We're talking about the world, not India. I admitted that "British English is used more internationally than American English", I merely pointed out that you cannot accurately state that all uses of American english on the internet come from America. Many, not most, but many, international people use American english. Therefore, your arguments about American spelling and American usage are almost irrelevant.LedRush (talk) 15:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Given the strong evidence that LedRush has demonstrated actions associated with WP:PUSH, WP:BIAS and WP:DE with regard to the discussion on the introduction, I'm afraid the above response is part of the same pattern. LedRush does not respond to the statement regarding the differences in the terms, two of which are clearly ambiguous, makes a false statement about the results "most are valid" (most would imply well more than half, which they clearly are not) and establishes a false premise to derive a false conclusion ("trade union busting" cannot be compared to "trade union free" because it is not a comparison of likes, a point raised above which LedRush ignores).  Also it is worth noting that the expression "trade union free" can be descriptive and be used as a statement of fact (eg "a trade union free of employer influence").--Goldsztajn (talk) 14:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggest that you focus on my comments and arguments, which you've been largely ignoring in favor of strawmen, and refrain from personal attacks against me. If you truly believe that I have violated Wikipedia policy with regards to WP:PUSH, WP:BIAS and WP:DE, I suggest you file proper administrative action where it will be given the proper attention.  Until, then, kindly try and make constructive edits and comments.


 * My points about the google numbers are simple and factual. All I need to do to successfully argue for the inclusion of the terms is demonstrate that they are in wide usage: the examples above prove this beyond any reasonable person's doubt.  Your idea of adding "trade" in front of search terms drastically reduces the number of effective hits, as I've proven with my example of how many hits "trade union busting" gets.  The only new argument you mention above is that "trade union free" can mean something different.  Well, "trade union free of" gets 139 hits, so I guess we can subtract thoses from the many thousands of hits from the web, but I imagine many of those 139 hits still don't say what you hope and pray they do.LedRush (talk) 15:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Simply put, no. LedRush has not engaged with my repeated point about the ambiguity of the term "union free" irrespective of whether it is associated with the word work.  LedRush has not demonstrated wide usage precisely because the results cited to attest that fact are inconclusive.  Widespread cannot be concluded when the terms are ambiguous.  I have provided ample evidence of this. LedRush has not addressed the argument that qualifying a search of "union busting" with the insertion of the word "trade" is irrelevant because the search "union busting" does not turn up a plethora or unrelated results.  The failure to accept or engage with the above leads necessarily to an assessment of the purpose behind such refusal.  But here we go again.  Check the first ten pages of the Google Search results from "union free":


 * 1 4 union busting related hits, all directing to US union-busting firms, 6 unrelated.


 * 2 1 union busting related (US right-wing website), 9 unrelated.


 * 3 0 related


 * 4 0 related


 * 5 1 related (blog on US union busting firm website)


 * 6 0 related


 * 7 0 related


 * 8 1 related (book seller, academic work on USA)


 * 9 1 related (Logan's work on USA, which qualifies the term, ie sees the term as used by the union busting firms)
 * 10 3 related (2 book sellers to already mentioned academic work on USA, 1 union busting lawyer in the USA).


 * and thus? Of 100 results, ruling out the union busting firms or lawyers engaged in union busting, basically 1 from a website of US right-wing columnists and 3 which are book sellers all referring to the same book. So basically just two specific results for this supposedly widespread and extensive term.  And in the case of the academic book, the phrase is used descriptively, that is referring to workplaces without unions.  No results referring to conditions or circumstances outside the USA.  To repeat myself: "the overwhelming preponderance of use is in the USA and by the union busting firms (or in reference to those firms' actions)".  I have never argued that I wish to exclude these terms from the article, I am specifically talking about the introduction.   As I said from the outset, these phrases need to be in a section dealing with the USA and explained as terms used most generally by the union busting firms or their fellow travellers.--Goldsztajn (talk) 11:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure whether ot not Goldsztajn is deliberately misrepresenting my arguments or not, but my point on adding a term like "trade" before "union" is that it removes hits that are relevant as well as those that are irrelevant. I gave the "trade union busting" as an example of how many "good" hits it can remove...over 99%!

Regarding "union free", we can do more selective searches to see how many are good. Some may overlap, but generally one must agree that adding search terms will necessarily give you fewer "good" results than otherwise, even if the percentage of good hits is higher"


 * "union free" employer: 81,900
 * "union free" workplace: 30,000
 * "union free" work: 677,777
 * "union free" management: 196,000
 * "union free" organisation: 181,000
 * "union free" laws: 305,000

Despite the fact that I have proven my case, I am willing to compromise because this long stalemate with Goldsztajn has prevented myself and others from moving along and making other parts of this article better. I am willing to drop the list of alternative names to the first section that elaborates on union busting (perhaps "union busters") if he is willing to accept my NPOV intro which correctly attributes opinions (my last proposal without the last sentence). This is indeed middle-grounding because I firmly believe that my proposals more correctly conform to Wikipedia's principles and the reader's interests, but this long stalemate is hurting the article too much for it to continue. Just to be clear, if this offer is rejected, I retain the right to push for the inclusion of list of alternative terms in the lede, where I believe it belongs.LedRush (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Union busting is a term used by labor organizations and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized as a universal human right under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, union busters employ a range of activities to subvert trade unions, including sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions. LedRush (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * So noted. I think we are now very close and I would ask LedRush not to consider what follows as "rejection", but refinement. In response to the above:

Union busting is a term used to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from freely organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, union busting denies this right by sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions.
 * My changes are based on the following:


 * 1. removal of "by trade unions and others" as per peer review.


 * 2. add the word "freely" (a compromise for not including the word exercise later, and very clearly related to coercion/compulsion elements of freedom of association rights)


 * 3. removal of "universal human right" (given that the UDHR is now to be mentioned directly in the text itself the phrase while not exactly repetitious has the feel of repetition, this helps to clear that)


 * 4. "union busting" for "union busters" (as explained previously, confuses the phenomenon, what the intro should be about in toto, with an element of the phenomenon)
 * 5. "denies this right" for "employ a range of activities to subvert" (as explained previously in response to LedRush's disagreement with use of the word "subvert", removes repetition of the phrase "range of activities" from the first sentence, cleans up text).
 * 6. Linking for strike-breaking, lockouts, employer-controlled trade unions.
 * I hope this works for everyone.--Goldsztajn (talk) 21:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * 1. I don't like the removal and think the one editor at peer review is wrong on this. I think it would be fine the way you've written it if we kept the last sentence (now deleted) as it allows people to know that this term is not necessarily a neutral one: just like pro-life or pro-choice carry connotations, union busting is a term used primarily by one side.  If we could work the language in another way, (not in the first sentence), I could be persuaded.  But I feel that the removal of the alternative list and the mention in the first sentence of who primarily uses this term is unacceptable POV.
 * 2. Fine
 * 3. Fine
 * 4. Fine, but the grammar et al needs to be cleaned.
 * 5. This new language is even worse than old language. Union busting doesn't deny rights.  People still have the right to join unions, it is just that they might not have the opportunity to join a union at a specific place.  I made the concession on the last sentence as a trade for my proposal on this.
 * 6. Fine

Union busting is a term used by trade unions and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from freely organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, union busting firms disrupt the organization and continuation of unions by sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions.

As I said, if we can find another place to state that the term is used primarily by pro-union organizations, I might be persuaded to remove it from the first sentence.LedRush (talk) 22:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, great, we're moving. On Point 1 while I agree with the peer review, am willing to keep the language as it was. Point 4 and Point 5 and the new proposal: my concern here is there is a slippage.  In global terms union busting is not just about the North American firms which engage in the practice, it encompasses many different things by governments, employers and by the firms.  So it seems to me this version goes from a global perspective in the first sentence, to a narrow perspective in the latter part of the second with the use of the "union busting firms" (and also it would imply the union busting firms engage in violent suppression which, whether I think this is true or not, does not belong in the introduction and would be a very disputed point). I understand the concern here about grammar, but "union busting" can either be a noun or a verb, as a noun there is not a grammatical problem (however if this is too problematic, perhaps the addition of the word actions). Also, I do not understand this justification: "Union busting doesn't deny rights. People still have the right to join unions, it is just that they might not have the opportunity to join a union at a specific place." Talking about the same jurisdiction, if one is not allowed to exercise a right in one place, but able to in another, that still remains a denial of the right--this is the point about an inalienable right. However, I am willing to drop the "denial of the right", if we can go back to subvert as I think for example "disrupt" cannot cover the case of workers facing the death penalty for organisting trade unions in places like Iran. I suggest the following:

Union busting is a term used by trade unions and others to describe a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which hinder workers from freely organizing, joining and maintaining trade unions. While the right to join and form trade unions is recognized in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, union busting (actions) subvert(s) the organization and continuation of unions by sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions via law courts, strike breaking, lockouts, violent suppression, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, and the creation of employer-controlled trade unions.
 * The (actions) (s) part is intended to indicate optional language.--Goldsztajn (talk) 23:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Finally. I doubt either of us is ecstatic with this, but at least we can focus on the rest of the article now.LedRush (talk) 01:12, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * One final point, so there is no misunderstanding, do we go with "union busting actions subvert" or "union busting subverts"?--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:34, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I see it has been changed already, "union busting actions subvert", it is.--Goldsztajn (talk) 01:37, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, both are fine, I just went with one in the giddy realization that the long debate was finally over.LedRush (talk) 01:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Last attempt to engage Jbowersox on some critical issues

 * One last chance before we take the next step...


 * Talk:The_Burke_Group


 * best wishes, Richard Myers (talk) 13:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

One last chance before what?

I cannot possibly address all the questions you posed on The Burke Group talk page except to wonder a few things. There seems to be a "gang" all working in the same direction. Are you also sock puppets? Who is reviewing your contributions to make that determination? I would also ask based on your message to me where you have access to other people's talk pages, are you editing under the name Richard Meyers and Wikidea? Several names seem to agree with several others which seems more than coincidental so are you the same person advancing a singular agenda? It works both ways doesn't it?

The article of Union Busting describes activities encountered by unions, organizers, employers and employees all whom have a stake in outcomes based on differing view points depending on which side of the aisle you sit. However, that was not portrayed in the content of the article. In its original form, the article portrayed only one viewpoint which is not the purpose or intent of Wikipedia. The 139 some odd citations taken from Levitts biased book contain personal viewpoints with hostile offensive language and had not been edited with any objectivity. This appeared to be the case with the manner in which The Burke Group article was posted as well. I wondered why you isolated that company of dozens if not hundreds in the U.S. to attack and post as though he was the sole embodiment of everything written by Mr. Martin Levitt (who wrote nothing about them) but yet he named Jack Sheridan (Adams Nash Haskell and Sheridan) and   Modern Management which still exist today and you didn't choose them?

My purpose along with others with whom I confer was to bring scholarship, fact from fiction, and attempt to insert levity and parity by interjecting other view points without disrupting the original articles. At no time did i take over the article, disrupt it, become uncivil, take massive deletions or bulldoze. In fact I added properly footnoted citations, scholarship, new elements to union busting history and rewrote an intro to the History section very sympathetic to the cause of labor unions. Am I guilty of sock puppetry? Maybe. My students have gone into the sites on my computer (in the classroom) and i suspect made some edits without my review. For that I am sorry but I applaud their enthusiasm and interest. Originally I gave them the assignment of taking several sections of Union Busting and rewriting them (not for Wikipedia) as a class exercise which required them to do their own research and  learn the history of unions in America in a more interesting and participatory way than a dry reading assignment.

Further to that, their passion was ignited by a visit to our school by Mr. Burke who was invited with several others in a panel of opposing views in a debate society and it left a positive impression on all. After the debate it was gratifying to see the parties shake hands and congregate with one another in a very congenial manner without the hostilities that one would summons given the tone of The Labor Portal's rhetoric. Mr Burke (a Ph.D.) was invited and  brought a colleague  who was the former President (an MBA and MSN) of one of the largest unions in the U.S.  He was also responsible for providing the contact information for several invitees from union's for the debate. Seeing the congeniality and civil disagreements (and many agreements too) was the experience that motivated me to go into the sites you posted believing I would encounter the same civility similarly among other scholars embracing the idea of OPI or "other people's opinions". Does it surprise you that people in the world of Wiki readers know Mr. Burke? Does it surprise you there are some who do not embrace aggressive organizing or union membership? I have no choice but to be in a union but for personal reasons I would opt out  if it were possible.

Burke is not some secret shadowy fellow skulking around like a vampire looking for clients from whom he can suck the collective blood. It's one thing to attach an industry quite something else to attack one member and the man personally. I'm sure there are some in his industry who are unsavory but I can tell you I've met plenty of those in unions too. When biased anonymous people behind the mask of Wiki articles write about living people posted into a powerful global portal who know little of their subject except what has been written by very biased individuals, there will always be controversy. Wikipedia is not some small membership blog where you can say things and take no accountability. To disallow people with viable information to add to the dialogue is very POV if not criminal. To create false depictions or accusations is going to trigger argument. The topic of union busting is emotional.

As for your reference to my observation that others have had difficulty getting their view points across based on previous edits I was not referring to MY edits. I was referring to others found earlier on the union busting talk page that voiced disagreements and then disappeared from the page no doubt blackballed by your gang.

Please go back over my contributions and revisit your angst. As LedRush indicated it should not be about the editor, it should be about the "edits". Let the words speak. 'There is a difference between "bias" and "objectivity". An editor may have a point of view.....but if edits are "objective" there should be no issue. Jbowersox (talk) 18:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * My response is here:


 * Talk:The_Burke_Group


 * best wishes, Richard Myers (talk) 02:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

removal of history section
The "History" section was removed because it is now an article History of union busting in the United States, which is linked in the See Also section. Perhaps a sourced and relevant section on the history of union busting is needed, but if it is only relevant to the USA, it belongs in its own article. Please do not restore this section as whole. Perhaps as a WP:SUMMARY sentence to the USA article, but even that in the absence of other global information I think that would be undue. Remember that the majority of English Wikipedia readers are not from the USA.--Cerejota (talk) 17:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * A summary of the history of union busting is obviously relevant to the article. If you want a more international flavor, the answer is to add it, not delete the US stuff.LedRush (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

It appears that the entire History article has been removed from Wikipedia and is now subject to deletion by the Wikipedia community due to "redirect"? Can anyone explain this to me?Jbowersox (talk) 21:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Since it is a History of union busting in the United States, it has been renamed as such. If you feel you have material for an article on a more comprehensive worldwide view on the subject, you can edit the redirect and turn it into an article, and redirect the mis-capitalized redirect to it. Nothing sinister, just following the WP:MOS. --Cerejota (talk) 04:01, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Properly naming the section is, of course, fine.  I was against deleting the section merely because no one has surfaced with both the knowledge and determination to make the article more international.  The current section is only relevant to the US, but is helpful to the reader and obviously better than nothing.  Thanks for this elegant solution.LedRush (talk) 05:26, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with "union busting history" outside of the U.S. The history section from this previous article definitely focused on U.S. history which is really different from the rest of the world because the US enacted laws from the get go. Internationally "history is still in the making" since the emergence of India and China. Some international venues are seriously lacking in laws. Perhaps establish a guideline in developing history and insist on staying within the 20th Century which will help keep the size down. But be aware it may be difficult to marry the U.S experience to the international experience. Do a quick google using search words "union busting in China" and "union busting in India" and you see things that probably couldn't happen in the U.S. To go international the article may need country names as subtitles and insert some condensed representative examples of history under each country to highlight differences. Or just leave as Union Busting History in the USJbowersox (talk) 23:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Removal of Workers as Union Busters
I just noticed that section called Workers as Union Busters was removed due to "peer review"? Does that mean the Labor Portal removed it? Can you explain the NPOV in that exercise? How can you have an article about Union Busting as NPOV when it is policed by the Labor Portal? How can you have an article which is supposed to allow contributions to "improve" it and yet not include workers and their part in union busting? If decertifying a union (initiated by workers) is not "union busting" then what is? Are you terming it "union busting" only if consultants are hired? Is this to promote an idea that All workers would join unions ALL the time and no "workers" ever engage in counter organizing at their workplace? Are you promoting that ALL employers are somehow equal and ALL can afford to hire union busters for ALL organizing campaigns and ALL elections that "vote no" are ALL due only to professional union busters and NEVER to a workers own choice? That is preposterous. Please explain to this contributor and all who are reading these dialogues the reasoning of the "peer" review removal of that entry.Jbowersox (talk) 18:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggest you calm down a little and not make assumptions about the process or about other editors. There is enough of that already here on this page.


 * The section was removed because after a suggestion from the peer review (the link to which is at the top of this page). The reviewing editor's opinion is just that, an opinion.  However, the section had only one citation and the editor was unable to find others through his own search.  I admit that I looked only for a few minutes and didn't find anything else.  Because it was uncited, and because that editor couldn't find info on this, he recommended it be removed.  I support the removal until citations are found.  If you can find some, re-add it.  The section was well written and seemed to belong here.LedRush (talk) 19:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I have several citations which I will add tomorrow when I am not so pressed for time.Jbowersox (talk) 05:25, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I found the time and reverted the page with the required citations. If you need more they are as follows:

Retail Clerks has been tagged an anti union union due to being found guilty of interfering with, restraining, and coercing employees who wanted to engage in union activity outside of Retail Clerks. They threatened employees with loss of jobs and other economic reprisals and refused to bargain with an unknown representing its employees. See 1) Retail Store Employees Local 444, 63 LRRM 1448 (NLRB, 1966). 2) Retail Clerks v. NLRB, 62 LRRM 2837 (DC Cir. (1966), 3) Retail Store Employees, Local 444, 153 NLRB 252 and 255 (1965), and 4) Retail Clerks, 153 NLRB 204 (1965).

United Transportation Union, AFL CIO refused to bargain with the union of its own office staff. See American Federation of labor, 120 NLRB 969 (1958) or see Garment Workers, ILGWU, 131 NLRB 111 (1961) and Federation of Union Representatives v. NLRB, 339 F.2d 126 (2d Cir. 1964). Please note I did not add these into the article and also please know that I have dozens more but do not feel it necessary to pile on.

Examples include IBEW, TWUA 138 NLRB 1393 (1962), Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Engineers 145 NLRB 1521 (1964), International Assoc of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, Teamsters OFfice Employees Local 11 v. NLRB, 353 U.S. 313 (1957), Airline Pilots Association (97 NLRB 929) and more right up through current dates. Would you like for me to add them?Jbowersox (talk) 06:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * These only make the article longer and reinforce the problem of US centrism, something that should be addressed with examples of union busting from other countries, not the addition of more material from the USA.--Goldsztajn (talk) 11:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Making the article shorter should be about condensing existing info, not deleting relevant info. Making the article more international should be about adding more international info, not deleting US info.LedRush (talk) 19:05, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, I agree with the principle LedRush mentions, but I would ask editors to examine the difference between what was removed and what was added. It's twice as long now, contains new material, remains confused and "international" has become the Bahamas...and while I have nothing against the Bahamas, I wonder did anyone check the text or its source? This is not editing, this is just dumping of material into the page to try and prove a point...although I can appreciate the chutzpah of using anarcho-syndicalist material (or are they libertarian-communists?) to prove the point.--Goldsztajn (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the section is too long. Jbower, could you please try to make your contribution more concise...perhaps about half of the length it is now?  I ask you only because you are most familiar with the section.  When I cut, I sometimes cut drastically.LedRush (talk) 14:55, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll be happy to reduce it. It was removed previously by editors for lack of citations. So now I added them and it has proven to be to many. I'm sure there is a happy medium. Decertification must stay. It is a law that gives workers the power to extricate themselves from corrupt or inadequate representation. In the U.S we have the power to vote ourselves new representatives and governments.....so do union members.Jbowersox (talk) 06:05, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It was removed for lack of citations and lack of any meaning. Adding citations has not changed the fact that it is still meaningless. The material on the Retail Clerks (?) is over 40 years old and yet is used as if of contemporary significance.  The material on a Cintas plant in PA (??) is simply nothing to do with "union busting" whatsoever, it is about workers not wanting to join a trade union. The material on the OEA is not union busting but an example of a strike between an employer and employees, ie it is simply information about a labour dispute and cannot be construed as union busting.  The material on the Bahamas is the same issue as the OEA and the source is, to be polite, marginal.  This entire section is basically meaningless to the article and just adds confusion, because it has nothing to do with union busting and remains (once again) overwhelmingly US centric.  I would say this material might be of relevance to the opposition to trade unions article, but even then it is questionable.  The section should be removed.--Goldsztajn (talk) 11:57, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

whole bunch of disparate stuff -- all with a misleading heading
I am trying to figure out just what this article is supposed to be ... at this point, it appears to have no organic entity at all. In irder to keep this post short enough to read, I shall mercilessly oversimplify. The article, to make sense, must have a small "basis of unions" at the start (otherwise no one could figure out what it means in later uses of the terms). Unions go back more than two thousand years, covering professional associations including the military. The rise of guilds in Europe is also associated with the history of unions. Then go to "what a union is" in modern terms -- an organization which controls the supply of labor and its price. At this point, we will definitely end up with geographical distinctions about unions. In the US, the history of the miners from the mid-19th century can not be omitted, nor the railroad unions. Concommittent would have to be discussion of "historicl anti-union activities." Only after we get all that other article baggage sorted out can the subject of "legal means of discouraging unions" (including "right to work laws" and the like) begin to make any sense. I know I elided everything that is important, but the article name "Union busting" makes precious little sense on the current article. Thanks! Aim: a succinct informative article handling rather complex issues in an organized manner. Collect (talk) 13:16, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Well put. I entered this article as an editor out of similar frustration with the title, content, and disparate subject matter which appeared to largely annotate two books hostile to employers which provided little historical development of the history of labor and unions thru rebellion (Bolsheviks), guilds, Industrial Revolution etc. There was little balance offered to understand how labor and management interrelate or find themselves at odds with each other's agenda thru the ages or how laws have developed as a result. The Labor Portal has a tight grip on the article and it would be nice to see that relaxed to an extent to allow academic discourse. I agree with your Aim.Jbowersox (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This is absurd. The article isn't about Bolsheviks, guilds, the Industrial Revolution, or so many other of the issues mentioned here. The article is about union busting. If someone wants information about Bolsheviks, etc., they should consult the fine Wikipedia articles about Bolsheviks (and so forth).


 * I believe some of the recent intent behind editing this article has been obfuscation, to change the article into anything but a useful overview of union busting. Not too surprising of a development, if the intent is to defend/whitewash union busters. Richard Myers (talk) 20:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Richard, please assume good faith. The best way to deal with criticisms of NPOV is not to make accusations.  On a different note...good edits  LedRush (talk) 21:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Bolsheviks? Are you suggesting that i shouldn't forcefully challenge the proposed introduction of the topic of Bolsheviks into this article??? That's roughly equivalent to the old red-baiting practice of calling union organizers commies. —This is part of a comment by Richard Myers   which was interrupted by the following:


 * No, I said to assume good faith and attack edits, not editors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LedRush (talk • contribs) 29 January 2009 22:54 UTC


 * But that's just one of the obvious examples, and therefore easy to challenge. An example of the more subtle bias that has crept in -- the article has been edited to claim,


 * Union Busting is a term used by labor organizations and trade unions to describe the activities that may be undertaken by employers, their proxies, workers and in certain instances states and governments usually triggered by events such as picketing, card check, organizing, and strike actions... (emphasis added)


 * In other words, the workers begin to organize, or the union takes some sort of concrete action, and there is a response.


 * Well, (the reader may conclude,) if the union advocates would just go away, everything would be peachy-keen.


 * But that doesn't hint at the reality faced by some of my friends and family who have worked at Wal-Mart, where even a vague rumor brings a special visit (together with their indoctrination program) from the suits from their corporate union busting division. And they eavesdrop on phone and email conversations of their employees to pick out any such rumor. They've even used high tech bugs, and infiltrators to police their employees for any suggestion of concerted activity.


 * Or how about my nephew who worked as a chef for a major hotel chain; when a new corporate conglomerate bought out the chain, they issued an edict which they claimed was for "the privacy of associates." Anyone employed at the hotel chain was no longer allowed to use the last name of any other employee, under any circumstances, except when required for official business. My nephew (who has never been a union activist) says it was an obvious new rule aimed at making it more difficult for employees to communicate with each other outside of their place of employment. He described it as pre-emptive union busting. Not in any sense a reaction to "events such as picketing, card check, organizing, and strike actions..."


 * In brief, this article used to be pretty well focused on the issue of union busting. But in some places it has been edited to create a false impression about the reality of union busting. I won't say the editors are biased, but the edits sure the heck are. Others may draw their own conclusions. Richard Myers (talk) 22:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * When I started editing this article, it was by far the most biased of any I had ever seen on Wikipedia. But it was also clear that there is an excellent article in there waiting to get out.  I have made dozens of edits to this article, and I defy you to find one that didn't make the article either less POV, more encyclopdic, or more concise.  I don't know that more than a couple of my edits have even been altered.  Please, try and calm down and make constructive comments and not accusations.LedRush (talk) 22:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * LedRush, i haven't been referring to your edits. best wishes, Richard Myers (talk) 01:14, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Universal Declaration of Human Rights in the Intro Paragraph
There has been much discussion about whether this Union Busting article is about the United States or the International Community. Although the U.S. has ratified several Intrn'l human rights covenants, it has not ratified the UDHR. The United Nations ratification should not be misunderstood to mean the United States. If this article is deemed "International" then I suggest it be noted that the UDHR has not been ratified by all countries. I take no pride in this but the facts must be correct. If this article is deemed to be describing U.S., the HDHR may not be the law to reference in the intro .Jbowersox (talk) 02:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, this would have been great to bring up before the end of a debate that has lasted more than a week. Anyway, the statement doesn't mention who has and hasn't ratified the UDHR, it merely says it is a right under the UDHR.  I guess we could say "While most western nations acknowledge the right to join unions as a basic human right" or some such thing...but this really should have been brought up before.LedRush (talk) 03:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. Didn't know it before. The UDHR isn't really part of the legal labor world's lexicon so I've only just gotten acquainted with it. Not trying to be a nudge...just being a typical lawyer dotting I's and crossing t's.Jbowersox (talk) 05:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed sentence
I removed this sentence:

Contemporary opposition to trade unions known as union busting started in the 1940s and continues to present challenges to the labor movement.

The self-reference link is pointless, but not a problem, since Wikipedia converts self-links to strong text.

The reference to the 1940s isn't sourced, and isn't explained. I certainly don't know what it refers to.

The other link (opposition to trade unions) needs to be worked back into this article. Note that the opposition article is actually about criticism of trade unions, rather than opposition. Therefore, this sentence really doesn't make sense. Maybe there's a better place for the link, i haven't yet looked. (I think the opposition article should be renamed, but i don't often edit there.) Richard Myers (talk) 10:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok. Just so you know, i've been putting fact tags on unsourced sentences rather than deleting them.  That gives the editor a chance to give the source before it is deleted.LedRush (talk) 14:46, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Union busters section
This is the second paragraph in the Union busters section, as it currently appears:

Firms and organizations which specialize in stopping trade unions forming, focus on management techniques designed to stem attitudes amongst workers which may develop into collective actions. Strikebreakers (used to replace striking employees) who understand that trade unions depend upon the support, confidence, and good will of members, frequently make them targets in strikebreaking campaigns.

This is the way it originally appeared:

When corporations seek to turn the workers against the union, they do so by hiring a "new breed" of union busting agency &mdash; the labor relations consultant who well knows that the union depends upon the support, confidence, and good will of its members. These qualities are frequently targeted in strike breaking and in union busting campaigns.

What is intended, with union busters replaced with "Strikebreakers", and then "Strikebreakers" is defined in parens as replacement workers? In what sense are these strikebreakers (replacement workers) making "them" targets? Who is "them"?

The original is much better, its replacement is confusing, inaccurate, and makes no sense. Not to mention, the "fix" is an edit which is unfaithful to the original source, which is still attributed even after the statement has been altered.

This sentence, from the current article:

Strikebreakers (used to replace striking employees) who understand that trade unions depend upon the support, confidence, and good will of members, frequently make them targets in strikebreaking campaigns.

is now attributed to Robert Michael Smith, but he never wrote that, and i don't know what the heck it means. The original was carefully written to represent what the source stated. While some improvement in wording may have been OK, the existing edits are detrimental and false.

For reference, here's the current paragraph with source links:

Firms and organizations which specialize in stopping trade unions forming, focus on management techniques designed to stem attitudes amongst workers which may develop into collective actions. Strikebreakers (used to replace striking employees) who understand that trade unions depend upon the support, confidence, and good will of members, frequently make them targets in strikebreaking campaigns.

Here it is with the original source links:

When corporations seek to turn the workers against the union, they do so by hiring a "new breed" of union busting agency &mdash; the labor relations consultant who well knows that the union depends upon the support, confidence, and good will of its members. These qualities are frequently targeted in strike breaking and in union busting campaigns.

My point in making these observations -- when an article is already carefully sourced, and new information is fitted in place of the existing sourced info, one should exercise greater care, else not only is the original meaning lost, the new info may be falsely attributed to the original sources! And, discovering such damage can be difficult, not to mention repair. Richard Myers (talk) 12:17, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you concisely state why the new ones are false?LedRush (talk) 14:48, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think my complaint was somewhat redundant and confusing, sorry; the citation was falsified when "Strikebreakers (used to replace striking employees)" was inserted into a sourced sentence which didn't deal with Strikebreakers (used to replace striking employees) at all.


 * In fact i don't understand why the article had "strikebreakers (staff replacement firms)" in the first paragraph of the Union Busters section, and then "Strikebreakers (used to replace striking employees)" in the second paragraph, when there was no reason to shift meanings for "strikebreakers". In any case, i've re-written the section.


 * I don't mind having a link to the strikebreakers article, and i don't mind having the article explore how strikebreaking relates to union busting, but this section had been changed in ways that were both confusing and false (because of changing the meaning of a sourced statement). Richard Myers (talk) 16:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The new intro
Minor technical suggestion, the use of "and" to tie all of these practices together creates an erroneous impression, suggesting that any union buster does all of these. I suggest adding "and/or" in the final sentence of the intro.

I'm suggesting this here (rather than making the change) because i know this section has been contentious. Thoughts? Richard Myers (talk) 13:32, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "or" usually means "and/or" and so I would just use "or" (because "and/or" is messy).LedRush (talk) 14:50, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "or" sounds OK to me. I think i have the same reaction to the word "amongst" that you have to "and/or"... Richard Myers (talk) 16:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

pejorative
"Union busting" is generally considered pejorative, and leaving that out of the lede would make no sense. Seemy comments above about the major reorganization needed to make this a NPOV article. Collect (talk) 15:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Consider that a lot of opinions have been expressed about making the article NPOV, from many different points of view. And any one person with a POV is likely to find their POV countered by someone else's. The problem is getting all of the editors with so many different points of view working together.


 * I can guarantee that you will get a lot of opposition to the use of the term pejorative in the first sentence. The expression union busting may be colorful and colloquial and not neutral, but i find use of the word pejorative in the first sentence to introduce both bias and confusion.


 * Note:


 * Words and phrases are pejorative if they imply disapproval or contempt. When used as an adjective, pejorative is synonymous with derogatory, derisive, dyslogistic, and contemptuous. When used as a noun, pejorative means "a belittling or disparaging word or expression".


 * But also,


 * Not every instance of criticism is pejorative. (from Pejorative )


 * Then which is it?


 * Right off the bat, the reader will focus on this one word that you keep adding and all of its possible implications, rather than on the content of the article itself.


 * Concerning the insertion of RTW legislation into the intro, consider that legislation certainly does affect the environment in which labor organizing occurs, but the simple fact that it affects the environment means it is a macro issue, rather than a specific local activity such as will take place with one company, one union, one factory, or one industry. Yes, RTW definitely belongs in the article. Well guess what, it is already in the article. But if we were to use the intro to summarize every section or issue that the article discusses, then the intro would no longer be useful.


 * In my judgement, RTW is very relevant to union busting, but doesn't deserve an entire separate sentence in the intro if we're trying to make the intro succinct and relevant to the essentials of the union busting that occurs between employers and employee organizations.


 * If it can be worked in smoothly to the existing content, i wouldn't have an objection.


 * I'm open to different ways of very briefly mentioning RTW in the intro, if it can be finessed.


 * I'm even open to the idea that not everyone considers the term union busting to be the most widely accepted term for the phenomenon of union avoidance.


 * But there you run into this simple detail: the expression union busting is one of the very most recognized terms for this practice, because to many people it is not pejorative at all, but is simply descriptive, and therefore, the term union busting must be very prominent in any article about the practice.


 * What other term is there that can serve both the cause of recognition, and user searches -- union avoidance? That term is mostly used only by those in the industry of union busting. In my experience union avoidance IS NOT a generally understood term, nor a generally acknowledged term, nor a generally known term.


 * When it comes to adding the word pejorative to the very first sentence, my response is no, and my response will remain no. Richard Myers (talk) 16:49, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * To me, the name is clearly pejorative under the definitions listed. However, I don't know that there are other international words that are as widely used for this.  I personally would like to see some acknowledgment in the lede that the term is POV, as can be evidenced with my marathon disagreement with Goldzstajn above.  However, because we agreed on the current language as a compromise, I will largely stay out of this and let you guys come to a reasonable compromise.LedRush (talk) 19:54, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I find no reason not to use "pejorative" as it is an accurate description of the usage herein. Especially since it implies strongly that since the UDHR says unions are good, therefore "union busting" must be bad.  Frankly, the UDHR bit is not relevant to the practical issues involved and I still feel the entire article needs drastic overhaul. Collect (talk) 21:12, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

sentence needs balance
I temporarily removed this sentence:

Employers hire labor relations firms experienced in keeping unions out because they view unionization as causing higher labour costs, reduced profits, and a loss of control of their organization.

The reason: it was out of context.

I have no problem with it being in the article; in fact, i originally dealt with this subject more extensively in a much earlier incarnation of the article, but i don't know where that info has gotten off to (it may still exist somewhere).

But this sentence also needs to be balanced; i think it might be inserted in the brief explanation why workers have historically found it necessary to form unions.

The problem with simply inserting it there -- that is historical info, and the motivations for and against unions should be current, as well as historical. Richard Myers (talk) 15:56, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe the sentence belongs, perhaps as the first sentence of the last paragraph of the union busters section. We have an entire paragraph devoted to why union busters can be bad.  One sentence on why they may be good doesn't seem out of place.LedRush (talk) 19:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

US or International
Please revisit the lede and note the UDHR is not recognized domestically and "Right to Work Laws" are  not recognized internationally. Let me explain one other things before arguments ensue so you can consider these things as you generate definitions. Collective bargaining, union shop and closed shop enjoy different meanings internationally. Employers in the UK cannot be "union free" in the same sense as in the U.S. Most organizations in the UK are not "union free" yet do not have a union for "collective bargaining". In the U.K., unions are opened to individual membership and joined by "individual workers" regardless of their place of employment. Workers pay dues to belong to their union of choice (whether employed or not) and may use their union to represent them as an "individual" for pay raises, grievances, disciplinary issues etc" at any given workplace and it is an accepted practice by most employers and enjoyed by many employees even though their particular union is not "recognized" by the workers as a sole agent at their workplace for "collective bargaining". In the U.K. "individual" members of several different unions all work at the same workplace in total harmony without "one" collective contract.  Unions may run up against resistance when ONE union  attempts to be "recognized" as the exclusive agent for "collective bargaining" purposes at any given workplace against the wishes of workers who belong to a different union.    They can vote against "union recognition" at their workplace yet remain "unionized".  This is a huge distinction and difficult for Americans to understand. This is one of the points of difference that has not been recognized in recent UK elections making any distinction that although the workers voted against "recognition" in some cases, they did not vote against "unions" and in fact in most cases remained members of a union. They essentially voted for (keeping) their own individual union membership to which they pay dues. To the best of my knowledge, the employers in recent UK elections were not trying to be "union free". UK employers which promote "elections" are promoting freedom of "choice" to remain in their union of "choice". UK unions prefer "automatic recognition" at a workplace with no election. Elections there are not about voting against unionization; they are about voting against RECOGNITION OF ONE UNION. It is a huge difference. Employees at a workplace partial to one union for "collective bargaining" become very vocal in the UK same as the US. But the process and outcomes are quite different. Note: Dues are NOT generally collected  by the "recognized" union at a workplace; however, they are collected from individual memberships outside the workplace. The key is to differentiate between "union recognition" and "union organizing". The concepts of "counter trade union recognition" (UK) is vastly different from "counter organizing" (U.S.). The former is NOT about being "union free" while the latter is. It's the opposite in America where ONE union generally organizes a workplace as an exclusive bargaining agent and requires dues regardless of a workers desire to belong (except Right to Work). It is difficult to explain in a paragraph. Please feel free to ask questions as you adapt this article for non domestic understanding.Jbowersox (talk) 21:53, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * A helpful contribution, thanks. What is the proper terminology for the US in relation to the UDHR, is it "not recognized", or would "not ratified" be more accurate? Richard Myers (talk) 05:14, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'd say not ratified. The U.S. certainly recognizes human rights and has never really needed the UDHR. It promotes human rights and although with its own worts and moles, as a country, has been a leader in that area and most people of the world would rather have their human rights enforced by the U.S. than any other country. The U.S. is pretty much a stickler for not letting other jurisdictions make law that may in any way override U.S. law which, as it stands alone, works pretty well.Jbowersox (talk) 05:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm unable to locate documentation of non-ratification by the United States. I did find an opinion that the United States has not supported the UDHR. I'm not fully satisfied with having this noted in the intro, since it may be disputed by others. I think it might be appropriate to move it to a different part of the article. (But i also think we may see a new direction with the current administration, so we should watch for related current events as well.)


 * In particular, the United States led the effort to pass the UDHR, but hasn't ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989/1990):


 * http://www.un.org/rights/HRToday/declar.htm


 * This is the only ratification failure that is mentioned. Note that the word "union" isn't mentioned on this page, and further research is hampered by a bad link to the "full texts".


 * Further info is welcomed... Richard Myers (talk) 09:13, 31 January 2009 (UTC)