Talk:Union of Fascist Little Ones

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I apologize for the mistakes, but English is not my native language. I would be grateful for the correction of errors. --Kolchak1923 (talk) 15:07, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Naming of children's/youth organizations
According to the J. Stephan book, the names of the youth organizations were: This proclamation on Party greetings (in §6) also seems to indicate that the boys' and girls' organizations had rather different names. On the other hand, this says: And in the Russian Wikipedia at ru:Союз Фашистских Крошек the two names are given as identical except for the male/female Fashistov/Fashistok. I have no idea which set of names is the correct one. Hqb (talk) 19:08, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Boys 10-16: Vanguard Union (Soyuz Avangarda)
 * Girls 10-16: Young Fascist Union (Soyuz Yunykh Fashistok)
 * Boys 10-16: Soyuz Yunykh Fashistov "Avangard"
 * Girls 10-16: Soyuz Yunykh Fashistok-Avangardistok


 * I am the author of the article ru:Союз Фашистских Крошек. Those names that I have brought you to the page (in Russian) - correct (I was holding the charters of these organizations in the archive). I ask how to translate them into English (it is the difference Fashistov/Fashistok). --Kolchak1923 (talk) 20:29, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There isn't really a good way to separate them in English (without inventing new names, which would be original research). Unless the two organizations had radically different charters, I would suggest to refer to both of them as the "Union of Young Fascists" (which is not gender-specific in English), and – where the difference matters – specify whether you are talking about the boys' or the girls' group. In particular, if you want to create a Wikipedia article about the two organizations, it would be most natural to have it under the joint name, with separate subsections about any details specific to either one. Hqb (talk) 21:08, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I want to create two articles, both in ruwiki. Organizations are different: as Hitlerjugend and Bund Deutscher Mädel. I want to know the correct translation. --Kolchak1923 (talk) 23:35, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * As I said, unless/until someone finds a reliable source (such as Stephan for the Fascist Little Ones), there is no "correct" translation. The best you can do is probably "Union of Young Fascists (boys)" and "Union of Young Fascists (girls)". Hqb (talk) 09:45, 8 November 2009
 * Union of Young Fascists-Avangard? --Kolchak1923 (talk) 13:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * In the title of the article, I think "U of Y F" by itself is enough (since it's often referred to as just that); but the full name (written in bold in the first sentence) of the organization should probably be rendered as Union of Young Fascists – Vanguard. That is, translate Avangard into English as well; and use a spaced n-dash instead of a hyphen to clearly split "Vanguard" from "Fascists". Hqb (talk) 19:58, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not verg good at Russian, but am I right in saying that "Little Ones" comes from the difficulty in translating a diminutive? For example that "vodka" is "litte water" but there is no really good English translation? That is not to gainsay anything above, just to set out the problem clearly if we can? It is a perennial problem with translations from Russian, and there seems no good way around it. "Youth" or "Young" would seem the most obvious English translation, but if this seems too much of a distortion, perhaps we should stick with "Little Ones", though it is not very natural English. Just my two pennyworth. Si Trew (talk) 07:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is a big problem with the translation. First was the translation "crumbs", but it turned out to be the bread crumbs (see my discussion page). This translation is taken from the book specialist on the topic, J. Stephan. --Kolchak1923 (talk) 20:04, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Propose move to formalise the discussion

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was no consensus. @harej 00:47, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Union of Fascist Little Ones → Union of Young Fascists (Soviet Union) —

Proposing move to continue discussion there. By no means do I expect my proposal to be the consensus right now, but it is clumsy as it is, I don't want to do OR but that is almost inevitable in trivial ways in translation, i.e. one must choose the best meaning which occasionally means changing the literal meaning, and I can't see that saying "Young" or "Youth" instead of the awkward "little ones" would substantially harm the meaning, while being more natural English. Si Trew (talk) 07:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This is the most adequate translation (see the book specialist J. Stephan book). Soviet Union to the name is irrelevant, because was established in Manchukuo Russian emigres. Two articles about the unions with such names (boys and girls) already has. Rename is not necessary. --Kolchak1923 (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Soviet Union is definitely wrong, I agree and said so. The difficulty is in my generation in Britain, "Russia" and the USSR were synonymous. So, it may make a genuine ambiguity for other readers. Si Trew (talk) 12:25, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * How about merging all these articles into one article, to be called Union of Fascist Youth (which appears to be unambiguous)? the snippet from p 153 of Stephan suggests they are effectively branches for different age groups of the same organization - now defunct. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:07, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I am totally against the articles of association to one (in ruwiki came to the conclusion that the three articles correctly) and against the proposed names.


 * In this case, neither Russia nor the Soviet Union is not suitable. --Kolchak1923 (talk) 00:04, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I would support a merge of the three,under the title suggested (or another). The boys and girls articles are more or less duplicates except for the uniforms, and minor changes in grammar which come straight from the same variations in Russian, as far as I can see. Kolchak1923 has not substantially changed these articles after my copy edit. "Little Ones" is clumsy in the extreme, and "Youth" seems better to me, if there is RS for that then all the better. I think we need Cyrillic for the avanguardz(i) and then a transliteration, which is why I said so, so as not to confuse the meaning with the English/French meaning of the phrase. A transliteration of the paper's name may also be helpful. Or PROD all three as really not very notable. Si Trew (talk) 21:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I am against the merger and renaming. About the reasons already mentioned. On the word "Avangard" see below. --Kolchak1923 (talk) 00:36, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Copied from User Talk:Kolchak1923
Thank you very much for your translation there. You did exactly the right thing, translated as best you could then asked for a little help for cleanup. Exactly the right way to go about it.

I think will propose moving it to "Union of Fascist Youth", although I do appreciate that is something of a distortion, but we can do no better in English. Or perhaps "Union of Fascist Girls and Boys" (I appreciate the two organisations were technically separate but I think the consensus is that they were essentially twins?).

I know nothing about this, which on one hand gives me an independence not granted to others, but also a sheer ignorance- so, thanks very much for the article. We just do not have the diminutive at all in English and it is always tricky to know how to translate it. For example with familiar forms of Latin names, e.g. Anna Karenina, to get the implication that that is someone born of Karenin, it is so hard to express in English, without being very clumsy.

You did a great job. I will propose the move, but very much for discussion, please do not be offended. Si Trew (talk) 06:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I have copy edited Union_of_Young_Fascists_–_Vanguard_(girls) and will go do the same now for boys. Please cast your eye over it in case I have introduced mistranslations by mistake, I am only cleaning up the English here and guessing the Russian where it is unclear to me (as a native English speaker but an appalling Russian one!).


 * Should it be Russian or Soviet Union in some cases? As a fascist organisation and emigre organisation I can see, or assume, that it was definitely specifically Russian not USSR, do we need to make that clearer, because at least in the UK the two were treated pretty much synonymously during the Cold War, and older readers (like me, I am 37) might be unsure which is meant. Si Trew (talk) 07:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * OK have done Union of Young Fascists – Vanguard (boys). Obviously there are lots of similarities here but some terms are slightly different. You probably want to check, in both articles, I have correctly cleaned up the uniform. I think there is a technical word for "shoulder strap" I know what you mean but can't think of the word right now. I changed "pants" to "trousers" because in British English "pants" are underwear, "trousers" will be understood worldwide even if not entirely natural to e.g. US readers. (For information, though it is not present in these articles, a "jumper" in the UK means a sweater, whereas in Canada it means a long dress. Great isn't it.) Si Trew (talk) 08:01, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This word "Avangardistki" I think you have to be careful with as a false friend. I would guess the most literal translation in English would be Advance guard (which redirects to Vanguard), or perhaps Front line, but Avant-garde in English (from French of course) usually applies to an artist who is considered to be making new developments. So, I am not sure the best way to translate it, or if it should be translated at all. Si Trew (talk) 08:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Corrected some inaccuracies. Look. As word "Avangardistki" - I did not understand what the problem? --Kolchak1923 (talk) 00:21, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This word is similar to the word in Italian (see Avanguardista). --Kolchak1923 (talk) 00:31, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Relation to the other Fascist Russian youth organization
What was the relationship between the Union of Fascist Little Ones and Fascist Union of Youth? 66.215.84.193 (talk) 07:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)