Talk:Union of egoists

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This entry is highly biased (in favor) of anarcho-syndicalism. I think some others points of view should be added. Especially those from the market anarchist side. Ex: Benjamin Tucker. A "Union of Egoists" to me would make more sense to me being a market anarchist society. 68.84.235.198 (talk) 02:16, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

There are mainly 2 reasons why Stirner´s philosophy doesn´t fit with the positions of Murray Rothbard, or as he has called it "anarcho-capitalism":

1. Stirner´s position on property is highly problematic for pro-capitalist liberalism. His position is that property is based on might only and not on the liberal pro-capitalist notion of "right to property" and "natural rights". He sees the notion of "rights" itself as ghosts that a free individual can well decide to disobey and disrespect and that includes the notion of "property rights". This obviously justifies expropriation and stealing (things that pro-capitalist liberals cannot accept). This is the reason why there are anarcho-communist Stirnerists (insurrectionary anarchism, Emma Goldman, Renzo Novatore and others) and also why there were Stirnerists who advocated stealing from the rich and living off robbery (See the articles individual reclamation and illegalism)

2. Stirnerian union of egoists cannot fit in with capitalist hierarchy based on worker/employee and manager/worker relations. Again this is the reason why there are anarcho-communist stirnerists since anarcho-communism sees economic relations as classless and hierarchy-less relations. ¿How can one be an egoist in a relation such as that of boss/employee?. There are stirnerist mutualists such as Benjamin Tucker since mutualism rejects class relations even though it doens´t reject the market as anarcho-communism does. So union of egoists can only be a relation without hierarchy and so that is the reason why a capitalist relationship of boss/salaried worker cannot be a union of egoists.

This is the reason why Rothbardianism is based on Ayn Rand and neo-classical neoliberal maginalist economics and never mentions Stirner. It is also the reason why Benjamin Tucker´s position also end up clashing with Rothbard´s. See this article "Benjamin Tucker — Anarchist or capitalist?"--Eduen (talk) 14:05, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Im quite aware of what you're saying. There is a reason why I said Benjamin Tucker... He was a market anarchist. Not all market anarchists are AnCaps. Now I do believe that you could be a Stirnerite and a AnCap. Some AnCaps (A minority) dont base their beliefs on natural rights. See consequentialist libertarians. A lot of the market anarchists on youtube have Stirnerite leanings and also support some form of AnCap. I disagree with you on anarcho communists and being a Stirnerite. I dont think any self respecting egoist can call themselves a communist, of any form. Also Rothbardianism is not based on Ayn Rand... Its based on Austrian Economics. Ayn Rand was an Austrian but thats not what Rothbard based his beliefs on. A lot of Austrians distrusted Rand and "he shady devotion to big business." Also from your article "Benjamin Tucker was against “capitalism” in the sense of a State-supported monopoly of productive tools and equipment which allows owners to avoid paying workers the full value of their labor." I see no reason why Tucker would not support AnCap. Sure I dont think he would of been a primary advocate but back then when someone thought capitalism it was thought of as a state institution. In AnCap you could have worker run businesses. A lot of AnCaps even advocate it. Heck Rothbard supported syndicalist takeover of state run and state supported business. But like I said im not an AnCap. Im apathetic towards capitalism. I support a free market, of any kind. Be it capitalism or not. 68.84.235.198 (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The fact is that there exists and there have existed anarcho-communists who are stirnerists. Mainly insurrectionary anarchists. This has gone as far as the classic mainstream Emma Goldman who was Kropotkinist, stirnerist and Nietzschetian and so there is a long tradition of this. This is not something i invented or my opinion or my personal preference but historical fact so you really can´t "disagree with me" on this and wikipedia can only be based on facts supported on academic outside sources and the writings of the author´s themselves. Stirner has a complex philosophy just as Nietzsche´s but anyway i will try to add Stirner´s own examples of "union of egoists" now that i think there is a new translation of "Stirner´s critics", a writing by Stirner which does deal with this. So if you can bring an specific article on your "market anarchism" which deals with Stirner you can very well do it. But the stuff about you tube that you mention one can almost say it is discussion for specialized forums but can never support a mention in a wikipedia article and even for this space which is dedicated mainly for editions for wikipedia articles it is something out of place. As far as Tucker he is mentioned in the wikipedia article "egoist anarchism" but to be mentioned here one will have to find specific mentions of Tucker of "union of egoists".--Eduen (talk) 20:39, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Im not looking to cite youtube. I was just saying how the two ideas are possible. Im pretty sure Tucker did talk about it because him being a egoist anarchist his goal would be a "Union of Egoists." Im going to have to go through some of Tucker's works that I own. I was hoping someone here has already read something of the nature. Also "my market anarchism"? Whats that supposed to mean. Its not mine... Tucker was a market anarchist, most 1800's US anarchists were market anarchists, etc... The idea has been around for awhile... EDIT: Here is a translation of "Stirner's Critics" http://i-studies.com/library/articles/stirners_critics.shtml I've read it before and I dont remember any mention of an example of a "Union of Egoists" 68.84.235.198 (talk) 21:38, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd also like to note that Benjamin Tucker thought "In Stirner we have the philosophical foundation for political liberty. His interest in the practical development of egoism to the dissolution of the State and the union of free men is clear and pronounced, and harmonizes perfectly with the economic philosophy of Josiah Warren." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.235.198 (talk) 21:08, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Stirner´s critics has been recently translated in english for the first time completely here. The version you mention is only a partial translation. As far as Tucker I never doubted he was influenced by Stirner. All I said is that since this article is on "union of egoists" and not on "stirner´s influence" we must keep with the subject.--Eduen (talk) 21:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

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