Talk:United States Department of Veterans Affairs emblems for headstones and markers

Comments from the Merged page
Needless to say, this page desperately needs images. Deco 02:39, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's the page from the VA with the images, if someone wants to make the edit. http://www.cem.va.gov/hmemb.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.97.152 (talk • contribs)

The source page has moved to: http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/hm/hmemb.asp Is there a way to update the source links for all the images at once? --DougOrleans 22:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Islamic 5-pointed star
At the end of the list of images, there is a note that the Islamic 5-pointed star is not shown due to copyright restrictions. I have several questions:
 * How could such an image possibly be copyrighted?
 * If it is copyrighted, why is it shown on the separate page?
 * Come to think of it, that page is about a typographical, rather than a religious symbol. Is it really an appropriate link?
 * Isn't the crescent and star, shown separately, the normal Islamic emblem?
 * Matchups 22:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * For some reason, the source material for this page doesn't show those for the supposed copyright reason, so that just got reproduced here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.34.173.79 (talk) 12:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this 5-pointed star shared with the Druze, or is there no symbol for them? Also for the readers of the above comments, please see that Symbols of Islam makes no mention of the 5-pointed star, whereas Arabic star describes a typographical element, and has no religions context specified. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 22:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It is rather a mystery what this design actually is, except that it is known to be copyrighted, and so is very unlikely to be a regular 5-pointed star.  It could be some variation on the Druze star, but my guess is that it is either this or this.--Pharos (talk) 05:01, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, it's definitely the first one I linked, viewable at Family Bronze. Family Bronze apparently had the 2006-2010 VA contract to make "niche" markers--Pharos (talk) 06:08, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

On a related subject
What about the refusal to put some religions on dog tags? // Liftarn

I have never seen a dog tag with a religious IMAGE upon it. I have seen WORDING that indicates the bearers religious preference or, as in my case, the words "no pref" indicating I don't care who mumbles over my mangled corpse laying there upon the field of battle. 68.13.191.153 04:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

During my time in the service, you could always get replacement regulation dog tags, both on post or at private businesses (usually right outside post) with any religious preference you wanted. If you wanted "humanist", "atheist", or "no pref" it was fine. To my knowledge, no one was singled out for the religious preference on their dog tags. I, for one, had mine changed from "Baptist" to "Christian" after about a year, since I didn't feel the need to highlight denominational distinctions. And my dad, when he was in, became a Christian mid-way through his service, and had his changed from "no pref" to "Pentecostal". As the previous poster noted, I think it just provides the leadership a heads up for coordinating a funeral service and for family notifications.

no Scientology
Although I'm not american and I don't like them all that much. As any other part of the world, I'm glad there's no Scientology emblem there ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by DynV (talk • contribs) 02:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If that were to be an issue for Scientologists in the service, I suspect the military would either be willing to add a symbol or a lawsuit would lead them to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.34.173.79 (talk) 12:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Considering that the Scientologist corporation has copywrited all fo their 'unique' symbols and such, they probably would'nt sue, since it could open a legal pandoras box on them, which could force them to not have their symbols copywrited.

IkonicDeath —Preceding comment was added at 06:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

C'mon. If they add Scientology, they'd have to add Haruhiism and Voodoo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.122.191.167 (talk) 09:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay I'm as glad as you are that there's no Scientologist representation, but Voodoo and its related religions are legitimate religions. Comparing Voodoo to Scientology is just offensive and, quite frankly, racist. Cynthia-Coriníon (talk) 05:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Gallery
The gallery is actually more appropriate for Wikimedia Commons than Wikipedia... AnonMoos (talk) 03:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Missing Emblems
Don't know if it was oversight or vandalism, but the following emblems are missing from the list:


 * Armenian Cross
 * Catholic Celtic Cross
 * Celtic Cross
 * Farohar
 * GREEK CROSS
 * Kohen Hands
 * Messianic Jewish
 * Seventh Day Adventist Church
 * UNITARIAN CHURCH/UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST ASSOCIATION

I'm going to add them in under "not pictured" until/unless someone can come in and add the graphics (all available from the referenced governmental source). Esprix (talk) 21:01, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Confusing numbering
Please explain #50 is missing&mdash;what is/was it? And why is the Muslim star #98? —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry that I don't have any answers for you. I've often wondered these things as well.  The USVA assigns the numbers, and I can only assume that #50 was once under consideration and passed over, or perhaps it's still under consideration.  As for the 5-point Muslim Star being assigned #98, again, that makes no sense to me.  On the USVA site, the star isn't even pictured due to "copyright restrictions".  I can't imagine why or how a common 5-point star is copyrighted, but that's what their site says.  Having once worked as a civilian employee of the US Army, all I can say is:  There's a right way, a wrong way, and the Army way.  Spacini (talk) 20:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to lie, sometimes during what I can only describe as brief bouts of insanity, I find myself missing the Army way... The Famous Adventurer (talk) 20:01, 1 September 2017 (UTC)


 * This is old emblem - 50 - Confederate Cross of Honor (Not Published). --ЯцекJacek (talk) 20:18, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Thor's Hammer
http://www.fastcodesign.com/1672968/how-thors-hammer-made-its-way-onto-soldiers-headstones Wrad (talk) 05:41, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Sandhill Crane symbol?
I feel like, since it's not part of an established religion, that at least a link to an article explaining the inclusion of the "Sandhill Crane" symbol should be included, but I don't know if that fits the page format... Here's one reference: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2013/07/coming_to_va_cemetery_headston.html - Danfish77 (talk) 14:25, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent suggestion. Thank you for providing the URL.  I have added it as a citation for the origin of the Sandhill Crane symbol. Spacini (talk) 18:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, it's in reference to Indigenous Siberian Shamanism. Cynthia-Coriníon (talk) 05:25, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Five-point star
It is absolutely correct that the USDVA does not show symbol 98 ("Islamic 5 Pointed Star") on their website, which states "Not shown because of copyrights." What I have been able to ascertain from the history of symbol 98 is that it is, quite simply, a 5-pointed star. I have attempted to obtain a photograph of the symbol from the USDVA to confirm that it is the same 5-pointed star that is used on modern U.S. flags. They won't send me a photo or discuss its design or who owns the copyright. Even U.S. copyright law states that work produced for pay by the U.S. government is public domain, regardless of when the work was produced. (It's a very odd situation, to say the least.) I've combed through literally hundreds of military headstone photos looking for one use of symbol 98 and have not been able to find it in use. I have even spoken with Muslim members of my community and they have confirmed that nothing is sacred or forbidden about showing the star.

Until some visual confirmation is produced, I think it's best to leave the file for symbol 98 intact, but I will be the first to recommend its withdrawal if some visual proof can be provided to do so.

In the interim, I am taking photos of the symbols as I find them in my local U.S. Veterans' cemetery and hope to have the photographs supplement the USDVA symbols as they appear here. Unfortunately, I only have about 50% of the symbols so far. If others would be willing to assist with this, I could go ahead and start uploading the images. Thoughts?

Spacini (talk) 16:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually, I've made a bit of a discovery (mentioned in the old thread above), and I'm pretty sure this is the particular five-point star design meant, viewable at Family Bronze. Family Bronze apparently had the 2006-2010 VA contract to make "niche" markers.  Sounds great about the photos, we might want to put them in a subcategory of the Commons category.--Pharos (talk) 20:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * D'oh! I didn't recall that we've already had this discussion about symbol 98.  Thank you for bringing it to my attention.  Well, my local sources were right that it is just a 5-point star, but they didn't mention anything about one of the points not being "filled in" (for lack of a better description).  Now that I know what to look for, I can get some of my other VA graver friends in other states to be on the lookout for it.  Also, I have just enough graphic arts ability to be able to take the existing file for symbol 98 and approximate it as it appeared when created by Family Bronze.  Greatly appreciate the heads up. Spacini (talk) 20:52, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Symbol 98 has mystified me as well. However it is not the only symbol to have been copyrighted and not shown on their site. Back in 2000 the VA didn't show the symbols for the United Church of Christ (UCC) or Christian Science due to copyright (see the list here: ). Around February 2005 the symbol of the UCC started to show up on their site: (this link shows the number change for the UCC)  (this link shows the symbol itself). The Christian Science symbol started to show up on their list around October 2011: . The numbers of both symbols were changed as well. The UCC changed from #96 to #31 and the Christian Sciencists changed from #97 to #47. To resolve the symbolism of symbol 98, I suggest writing Family Bronze and asking them and/or filing a FOIA request with the VA. Two other things: 1) What's up with the pomegranate and 2) should we note the Unitarians had a different symbol at one point? The Wayback archive for their pages shows this symbol for the Unitarians: . It can be seen using the 2000 link above. - Thanks, Hoshie 05:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm curious about the numbering. The above poster noted that after copyright issues were resolved with the UCC and Christian Scientists, the numbers changed. Is that why symbol 98 is out of numerical order? Maybe if copyright issues become resolved, its number will change as well to fit into the numerical scheme of the other symbols? The Famous Adventurer (talk) 20:06, 1 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not an expert in religious symbolism, but the pomegranate could have some significance to either Hellenic Paganism or possibly the Greek Orthodox Church, since pomegranates are an important part of Greek culture in some areas. (?) Cynthia-Coriníon (talk) 05:29, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Emblem choosers
Does anyone know where I can find official policy about who gets to choose the emblem to put on a headstone? Or what would you do in case of disputes?

On page 3 of http://www.va.gov/vaforms/va/pdf/VA40-1330.pdf#page=3 after 13A where it asks for the name/address of applicant, on number 16 it mentions 3 options for specifying:
 * 1) NEXT OF KIN (specify relationship)
 * 2) AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE ON BEHALF OF DECEDENT (Include Written Authorization)
 * 3) AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE ON BEHALF OF NEXT OF KIN (Include Written Authorization)

It appears that only the 2nd option requires permission from the decreased themselves to make the choice of what marker to put on.

What would happen if this did not exist and there were 2 next of kin (say a mother and a father) who had different emblems they wanted on it? Like say if one wanted the Wicca symbol and the other wanted the Hammer or Thor? How would the army decide which to put on? There's a maximum of one right? Ranze (talk) 04:57, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You have excellent questions that I cannot answer. You should call the US Department of Veterans Affairs Applicant Assistant Unit: 1-800-697-6947. Spacini (talk) 15:34, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that an "Authorized Representative on Behalf of Decedent" would likely be the Executor of the veteran's last will and testament. Once the will has passed probate, and the Executor's decisions have the force of law, then they could determine the symbol to be used. Depending on the jurisdiction, this determination should outweigh other family interests. For instance, if the mother is the Executor of the will, then if a symbol is specified in the will itself, she is likely required to honor the instructions. If the symbol is not specified, then her decision as Executor would most likely trump the wishes of the father. If there is no will, the court would likely have to decide which family member constitutes the legal next of kin. The Famous Adventurer (talk) 20:14, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Missing Symbols?
Number 50; numbers 66-97. What/where are they?
 * That is an excellent question. The VA does not explain why 50 was skipped or deleted. The latter numbers are empty for adding new symbols. Why add a symbol with the number 98 was added is also unexplained by the VA. Hope this help, even though it's not much of an answer. Spacini (talk) 18:33, 6 February 2018 (UTC)