Talk:United States soccer league system

Updating professional team map
The map from 2013 was made with an unknown program and would be difficult to edit. I considered using the Template:Location map+ to show all the teams and add all the new ones; however, I don't like that you can't easily view a full size picture from the thumbnail (if someone knows how to do this please let me know. So I created User:Trödel/soccer_map using Location map+ and then took a screenshot of the results so we could at least have a good size picture. Not perfectly happy with it so feel free to edit if you have some suggestions. Also the User:Trödel/soccer_map can be transcluded if you don't like the image - (see image to right - I've done a little editing adding parameters to make that work but if it's going to be transcluded it needs more work). -- Trödel 19:34, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Updated map for 2017 teams and the announced 2018 and 2019 teams as of now. Left all other teams in current leagues despite info RE NASL teams going to new Canadian Premier League and uncertainty around San Francisco and NC. -- Trödel 03:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)


 * It appears that on 15:11, 10 July 2018‎, an anonymous user at 161.142.40.7 removed the map. There didn't seem to be a conscious decision for this, so I took Trodel's map, updated it, and put it back. Smilingra (talk) 16:15, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you Smilingra --Trödel 15:47, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

UPSL place in the amateur table
Hi everyone,

An edit was made to add two levels of the UPSL to the amateur table, a top level in parallel with PDL and NPSL and a second level in parallel with the USASA elite amateur leagues. My view has been that UPSL is not parallel with PDL or NPSL (not that this couldn't change) for a couple of reasons, one of which is the berth status of UPSL teams in the open cup, and another of which is that UPSL is explicitly an elite amateur league (in addition to being a national affiliate), unlike the PDL or NPSL. I am starting this discussion to have the conversation of what the fairest current status of the UPSL is. I would also preface this discussion by noting that I have seen several UPSL related edits in the UPSL page and on team pages that I would describe as promotional, and the league and teams would have a vested interest in relative equity with the two de-facto division 4 leagues (I believe the edits I'm recalling would best be described as self-promotional, but that is just speculation). Let's have this discussion to establish a consensus view of the UPSL. Loftybunch1 (talk) 03:44, 13 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I honestly am not even sure that it's that important, since there is no official sanctioning past the third division. I do think it is a mistake to consider them on the equivalent level as NPSL and PDL, especially in regards to the Open Cup entrance. It might merit some inclusion in the table, but not where it was before. Jay eyem (talk) 15:02, 13 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Tried to address your concerns - would suggest you edit it rather than revert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OrlandoCityFan (talk • contribs) 15:45, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

I have made a comment under "tier 4" also. But I have been trying to amend the amateur structure. The UPSL is now considered level 4 and not 5. Please can this be corrected? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.103.141.168 (talk) 19:44, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Tier 4
USL League Two IS NOT an amatuer league, it is a developmental league, and NPSL is equal with it. SportsFan007 (talk) 00:33, 23 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007
 * Any league that does not pay its players is an amateur league. Regardless, could you explain in more detail why it should be listed along with the professionally sanctioned leagues, in addition to in the table with the leagues sanctioned by USASA. BLAIXX 00:43, 23 October 2018 (UTC)


 * If the canadian pyramids lists them, why shouldn't the us pyramid? SportsFan007 (talk) 00:46, 23 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007


 * That's not really the best logic you should use when editing Wikipedia. Just because you see something in one place, does not necessarily mean it's correct – Wikipedia does have errors. In this specific case, the Canadian and US pyramid articles have different layouts. The Canadian article has a single table where the US article is subdivided into professional and amateur sections. In general it is best to use an article format appropriate to the specific topic rather than forcing the style of another topic. In the future, be sure that when you make edits to Wikipedia, you are able to defend your rational when challenged. BLA<b style="color: black">IXX</b> 00:57, 23 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I relocated the pyramid so it makes more sense. <span style="background:#000000;font:Helvetica;padding:0.4em;font-size: 80%;border-radius: 2em;margin: 0.25em;k; color:#00FF00">SportsFan007 (talk) 20:07, 23 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007


 * The way you have arranged it still seems illogical to me. Why separate USL2 and NPSL from the other amateur leagues? I have asked you several times but you have still not provided any substantial explanation. I encourage you to continue discussion on this talk page until we can reach a consensus. <b style="color: #329604">B</b><b style="color: #FD8F42">L</b><b style="color: #0096FF">A</b><b style="color: black">IXX</b> 00:43, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * When PDL was acquired by United Soccer Leagues and because USL League Two it became professional and if NPSL is equal with it, then it should be listed as well. <span style="background:#000000;font:Helvetica;padding:0.4em;font-size: 80%;border-radius: 2em;margin: 0.25em;k; color:#00FF00">SportsFan007 (talk) 02:20, 24 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007
 * Also, USL League Two and NPSL have unnoffical tiers, which the other amatuer leagues don't have tiers at all. <span style="background:#000000;font:Helvetica;padding:0.4em;font-size: 80%;border-radius: 2em;margin: 0.25em;k; color:#00FF00">SportsFan007 (talk) 02:40, 24 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007


 * My issue is that those claims are unsourced and speculative. As per WP:Verifiability, information should be backed up by a reliable source and there does not appear to be one that says USL League 2 is professional or "Tier 4" or that NPSL and USL2 are equivalent. Indicating it as such, even as "unofficial" would constitute WP:OR which states that content should not be original research. <b style="color: #329604">B</b><b style="color: #FD8F42">L</b><b style="color: #0096FF">A</b><b style="color: black">IXX</b> 03:20, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * So should Tier 4 be removed from the Canadian pyramid? <span style="background:#000000;font:Helvetica;padding:0.4em;font-size: 80%;border-radius: 2em;margin: 0.25em;k; color:#00FF00">SportsFan007 (talk) 03:28, 24 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007

I made some attempts to address this issue and provide sources for the structure. I don't know why USL and NPSL don't apply to be members of the USSF directly instead of continuing to be sanctioned to play through USASA but that's the way it is so that is the way it makes sense to identify them. USSF does recognize the difference between those two leagues and the other leagues sanctioned by USASA as they have designated them as "Open Division National League" in the US Open Cup Handbook and qualifying criteria separate from what is referenced as "Open Division Local Qualifiers". I believe (though I can't find the handbook documenting this), that this practice was formalized with the major changes made to the US Open Cup in 2012 when all MLS teams were asked to participate (it had been 8 teams before then) (see https://web.archive.org/web/20130516075122/http://www.ussoccer.com/news/lamar-hunt-u-s-open-cup/2012/01/2012-open-cup.aspx). However, in 2011, NPLS also received invitations to participate separately from USASA (it appears from my research that in 2009 and 2010, NPSL teams qualified by taking USASA slots). So who knows when USSF began to make the distinction between national and regional leagues. Regardless, the PDL has consistently been given a significant number of berths, and as NPSL has grown they have received a similar number of berths. I also agree with Blaixx in that PDL and NPSL pay some players and are not strictly amateur leagues - although I had trouble finding a reference clearly stating this. OrlandoCityFan (talk) 13:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

The amateur league pyramid has changed for 2020. The UPSL have themselves stated this; https://twitter.com/upslsoccer/status/1235697833304420352. The main difference to the structrue shown; is the UPSL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Premier_Soccer_League) are level 4 not 5. Level 5 should be: I have tried to amend this, but it keeps being edited back despite this being correct and evidence shown. Please can you edit the table to show the correct amateur levels. Please also see NBC Sports declare UPSL level 4 - https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2020/05/15/united-premier-soccer-league-returns-june-20-coronavirus-pandemic/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.103.141.168 (talk) 14:06, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The USASA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Adult_Soccer_Association
 * The NAIA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAIA_Men%27s_Soccer_Championship
 * The NCAA - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_I_Men%27s_Soccer_Tournament
 * US Club Soccer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Club_Soccer
 * US Youth Soccer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Youth_Soccer_Association
 * SAY Soccer - no wiki link at present.
 * AYSO - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Youth_Soccer_Organization

Page organization overhaul?
I just went in to do some minor updates on the women's section, and couldn't help but notice that this page is honestly all over the place. Like, first off, the "general standards" should probably be at the top of the article, not wedged between the men's and women's sections. Second, there looks to be a lot of stuff that needs to be flipped between the "men's" and "general standards" sections, e.g. the league requirements should probably be in "general standards" and the men's timeline + men's structure tables should probably be in the "men's" section. As a part of that previous flipflop issue, there's also a ton of DII and DII league history that's currently unlabelled in the contents and looks like it's under "markets and stadia". Would anyone be opposed to the following page outline?
 * 1) Structure
 * 2) General Standards ((noting that these apply to both men's and women's pro leagues)
 * 3) Market Requirements
 * 4) Field and Stadia Requirements
 * 5) Division I
 * 6) (six requirements)
 * 7) Division II
 * 8) Ownership Reuirements
 * 9) Markets and Stadia
 * 10) Division III
 * 11) Ownership Reuirements
 * 12) Markets and Stadia
 * 13) Men's Leagues (incl. header sections where all the history goes, as well as the top-level table of the four pro leagues)
 * 14) Men's League System (i.e. the two tables currently in "structure", and the list of cups)
 * 15) Number of teams in each league
 * 16) Women's Leagues
 * 17) Indoor Leagues

(edit) forgot ot auto-sign, sorry CyMoahk2 (talk) 19:10, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

League Structure
Because of the issues of league structure in the US and the lack of any formal levels other than the professional levels. I propose the following:
 * Merge Men's league structure section and the first table directly under the Professional Leagues heading
 * Above would eliminate Men's League structure heading
 * Remove the table for the semi-pro and amateur leagues and instead replace it with a list
 * Something like this:

This would more closely align with the actual way that the leagues are structured in the US and get rid of the implication from the table that some leagues are above others, etc. I'm sure someone can make it prettier than the above but hopefully you get the idea. --Trödel 01:09, 25 March 2022 (UTC)


 * PS - I'd also like to see the page move the structure information and all the professional details to the bottom so it better explains the league system in the US so it would be like this


 * --Trödel 01:18, 25 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I agree with the first two points; at the moment it is effectively just repeating the same information twice. I am also in favor of removing the table for the non-sanctioned leagues; I think it gives too much of an impression of a tiered system which does not exist. I'm not as sure about the criteria, though. What is the reasoning for listing Sponsored by Professional members of the USSF, Sponsored by National Affiliate members of USSF, and Sponsored by National Association members of USSF? Are these meaningful distinctions? I have long been unclear on why we list as many leagues as we do, especially since only two leagues (USL2 and NPSL) have automatic qualifiers for the U.S. Open Cup, and I just wanted some clarification on that matter. Jay eyem (talk) 21:56, 27 March 2022 (UTC)


 * The "Sponsored by" is just my construct based on how the leagues are approved to operate under FIFA auspices, and I choose it to avoid the arguments about which league is higher or better than other leagues. We could do something similar using "Semi-Pro Leagues" and "Fully Amateur Leagues" and then list how they are authorized as one of the bullet points for that league. Another way to organize them would be to organize by when the enter the US Open Cup - "Leagues with Round One berths", "Leagues that play Preliminary Qualifing Rounds" or something like that. And could order based on the number of berths the league receives. --Trödel 15:52, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

2015 proposed D1 requirements.
I'm not sure this paragraph is relevant. This proposal was reported close to 7 years ago and was never adopted by the USSF. We don't know how serious the proposal was or how close it was to being adopted. It only really entered the public consciousness due to the NASL, which was hoping to one day build to a D1 designation & was against the rules becoming stricter, expressing concern. While the NASL has unfortunately gone away, those concerns proved unfounded.

"In September 2015, it was reported that the USSF was proposing the addition of eligibility requirements for sanctioned Division I soccer leagues, including that they must have at least 16 teams, stadiums with a capacity of at least 15,000, and at least 75% of the teams must be in cities that have a population of at least 2 million.[13]" 47.151.29.195 (talk) 17:09, 12 June 2022 (UTC)