Talk:University High School (Los Angeles, California)/archive 2

Updates
If you've been away from your computer for 24 hours there have been some rather major changes. I've added images to the article as well as two new sections.

I've also requested a peer review, and I'm in the process of notifying the various wikigroups that this article is a part of so that they can participate. I am also going to request assessment, or in some cases re-assessment from those wikigroups.

As such, I figured that this would be a good time to archive the talk page. Hopefully there will be plently of discussion going on here, and people who come to the peer reivew can go to the archived talk page and see the archived peer review, but I figured that this would clearly divide the discussions between before and after the biggest changes that we've had in a while. Miss Mondegreen | Talk  23:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

cat for alumni
What would people think of adding a category for University High Alumni? Miss Mondegreen | Talk  07:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

suggest
As a UK reader I find "students which come from areas zoned to heavily overcrowded high schools" an odd phrase. Does it mean "students who come from areas where schools are overcrowded"? Victuallers 07:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh I know why it's like that--yah who is much better. Thanks for the copy editing.  I tried to yesterday, but I'd added so much and was a little tired.  Miss Mondegreen | Talk   08:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I am also totally perplexed by the above-mentioned odd phrase. I also do not understand what a "Capacity Adjustment Program" is. The authors need to ensure that the article can be understood by non-American readers. This article is not yet complete. There are certain key sections which have not yet been covered. There should be a section describing the curriculum offered by the school and the subjects taught. There should also be a section on extra-curricular activities. The history section is too brief. There seems to be far more about the fig tree than the school's history! Some basic statistics should also be included. How many children attend the school? What age groups does the school cater for? Dahliarose 08:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've wikilinked it, but unfortunately Wikiproject Education hasn't written an article on it. I think it can be understood in context though--students who come from areas where they would normally go to an overcrowded high school are instead bused to University High.  Unfortunately, I don't think that this article is the place to explain the program--can someone else who knows the program etc, weigh in on this?
 * About basic statistics--I'd written a much more comprehensive infobox for starters a while back but I guess I never used it (?) I'll redo that now.  In reference to the history, etc, yes, that's incredibely important, but I've hit the point where I can no longer do online research, so that will take longer.  The fig trees by the way are a part of the schools history and managing to get multiple communities involved--multiple cities involved in saving school trees isn't minor.  This was covered in the LATimes and on KCET, and Uni High is the first school in the country to use these rubber sidewalks to save trees, so I think that the section is of an appropriate length.
 * I know about curriculum changes and schedule changes etc, but I can't site anything until I make some off-computer research trips--which is due to the irregularity of what LAUSD and school documents are hosted online. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   09:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Dahliarose--is there any particular reason you changed the wording from "list of productions that have filmed at University High:" to "productions that have been flimed"?

It seems to me that "productions that have filmed" implies that University High was used for filming, whereas "productions that have been filmed" implies that the entirety or majority of the production was filmed at Uni. The list is quiet emphatically a list of the former--productions that used Uni for filming. Only a very few productions used Uni High for a majority of filming for a particular project.

Does the wording come accross to anyone else like this? Miss Mondegreen | Talk  09:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I only changed the wording because it was grammatically incorrect and I thought the word 'been' had mistakenly been omitted. Productions are passive, so they are filmed, or have been filmed, but they don't film. It might be a difference between American English and British English, and perhaps the phrase is acceptable in American English. I don't see that adding the word "been" changes the meaning. Perhaps the sentence should be rephrased altogether - "University High has been used as a location for the following productions...". Dahliarose 09:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe that the way the phrased "the production is filming" or "the production has filmed" is used is not refering to the movie, but to the actual production. It may be a usage that is related only to the entertainment industry, and therefore my understanding of it's being misleading may only be related to this particular usage.  But, yes, from my understanding a production, in the entertainment industry, films, or filmed--somewhere or when, etc.  It is all I have every heard or seen published (for the meaning we are trying to achieve here).  Anyone else want to weigh in? Miss Mondegreen | Talk   10:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Book in no library

 * Correspondence concerning a proposed commercial development at Wilshire and Barrington, site of the Gabrielino Spring at University High School
 * by Kalieh Honish; Steade R Craige; Gabrielino / Tongva Springs Foundation.

I'd really like to get ahold of this, but WorldCat's listing says that no library has it. I've googled the authors, etc, but I'm really hitting dead ends. Any ideas? Miss Mondegreen | Talk  08:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * What about the library of the school itself? -Will Beback · † · 09:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to call the school library again, but I'd be schocked if they had it to tell the truth. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   09:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If it was a serious proposal, the correspondence might have been attached to the Environmental Impact Report or Negative Delaration prepared for the project, which would be available at the lead agency (probably the school district) or, perhaps, at the State Clearinghouse. You might also look at local California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) documents (check the city or county planning department or local public and university libraries) to see who the current local experts are on archaeological resources related to the Gabrielino--they would know where related documents are like to be found.  The Tongva article says there's a big repository at Loyola Marymount University.  But, why doesn't the Foundation itself have a copy?  They seem to liaise with the school already.--Hjal 05:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There's no description of what the book covers, but the book could either be referring to the apartment buildings on the one part of the four blocks that the school doesn't cover, or, date wise, that sounds around when the continuation school was built, so it might be referring to that. Yah, no, I'm guessing it's the apartments.  CEQA stands for what?  I tried contacting them before about a photo and couldn't reach them.  They've been contacted again, since the image has been loaded (fair use), and if I get a reply, I get a reply.  If they don't reply, things get trickier--they say on their website whom they recognize to be the official leadership of their people, but I haven't ever gotten into that, simply because well, they have to say whom they as a foundation recognize because there isn't exactly one official leadership of the Gabriellino/Tongva people.  Also, UCLA has given them a particular designation, but I have zero idea what that means or how to even find out.  Ironically, I am trekking up to LMU tomorrow--I'll see what I can find out.  Theoretically however, worldcat should know if it's at the LMU library before giving such depressing news.  Miss Mondegreen | Talk   14:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I linked the terms, so you can see what they mean. An EIR in California is much like the document described at Environmental impact assessment.  Any major construction project in California since the 1970s that could result in an environmental impact (such as on the flow of the springs or on Native American burial sites) must have an environmental document prepared before the "lead agency" (the City of Los Angeles, unless the development was going to be on school district property; see http://www.cityofla.org/EAD/EADWeb-AQD/CEQA.htm) can grant a building permit or rezone property for development.  If the article that you're looking for was prepared for such a project, it is very likely to be an appendix to an EIR.  I don't think that it would show up in WorldCat, even if it was in dozens of libraries.--Hjal 15:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

access to latimes archives
Does anyone either have access to the latimes archives or know where I could get it without paying through the nose? (i.e. public library, etc.) I have a few places I'm checking, but nothing seems to be panning out and there's a ton of stuff on the school from when it was harding high on that I can't get from lexisnexis because lexisnexis doesn't go that far back. Any thoughts? Miss Mondegreen | Talk  14:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

too many notable alum
This school has a very long, very impressive alumni list. NNDB alone lists over 20 alums of Uni High--the problem is is that it doesn't stop there. The list of notable alumni, once completed, is going to be enormous, and I'm a little worried about that. I'm strongly against raising notability standards on this article, but I'm certainly for the alumni list not swallowing the article whole. Does anyone have any ideas? Are there other articles that manage lists of alumni this large? Larger (assume the list will at least double)?? Miss Mondegreen | Talk  14:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * A lot of schools with long lists of notable alumni put them on a separate page with just a short paragraph outlining some of the most notable former pupils. Wellington College, Berkshire is a good example.Dahliarose 16:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That's brilliant. I'd be thinking about that, but then I kept returing to "a seperate page for alumni, really?" and I didn't want to be the first and have people jump out from behind bushes and yell, "list-cruft!! attack!!" at me.  This definitely seems like the way to go.  There are also some great notable alum pictures at the school, and I'm going to see if I can get permission to use something for this section.  Miss Mondegreen | Talk   20:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, the list in a separate article isn't a problem. When asking permission to use photos make sure that the copyright holder knows that they need to licensed under the GFDL or similar license allowing for unlimited commercial and non-commercial use. See Requesting copyright permission. -Will Beback · † · 21:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, when I go talk to someone I probably won't be able to find someone who will be able to give me that permission. We're talking about year book photos from decades ago--I don't believe anyone at the school can give that permission as I don't believe they hold the copyright.  I'm not sure who does hold the copyright. Yearbook photos are compiled from the company that takes the photos from that takes the individual photos, the company that takes the group photos, and shots around campus that are taken by students, teachers, etc.  I'm sure that the school has some sort of overall copyright, but I don't know...  Getting a hold of the images would be the first step, seeing if their usable etc...  I'm hoping to keep the number of fair use images down in the article, and get permission for the ones we have or replace them as much as possible, but with historic images that's much less possible. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   07:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Look for Public Domain pics - avoid copyright all together. Or maybe get a GFDL pic. Twenty Years 10:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I am, but easier said than done. There are photographs attachted to several old LATimes articles--I don't know what the images are of, I'll have to get into the database and see, but those stand a good chance of being public domain--because the initial copyright on them would have had to be renewed.  But those are the only images that I know exist that have a shot of not being copyrighted--I've found other images, but I've also seen a lot of image sharing.  For example the LATimes article used a photo that initially ran in the Wildcat with permission of the photographer and a credit to the photographer.  It's been very difficult to find anything not copyrighted.  Miss Mondegreen | Talk   11:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a problem that frustrates many Wikipedia editors. The best source of public domain photos is the U.S. government, as any official products by federal workers is automatically PD. Another good source of old photos, many of which are either PD or have expired copyrights, is the L.A. public library. They have a huge online collection, including many Herald Examiner photos. And some people may have photos in their biographies already. -Will Beback · † · 21:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, but it's not like we really need an image of the person--an image of the person at the school would be helpful. The issue with the LAPL is that while we're using one image from there, we're using it under the assumption that it's copyrighted since I've been unable to find out if the copyright was renewed or not.  In fact a couple of the images in this article that are being used on fair use grounds may not be copyrighted, but I've been unable to find out and I'm finding that insanely frustrating. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   23:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Re yearbook content: many school publications made no claim of copyright, so, as long as you can examine the original publication, you may be able to determine that it is public domain. If it was published before 1923, or if it was published before 1978 without a copyright notice, then it's PD.  See Public domain.  If a school's regular practice was to publish without a copyright notice, I think that would invalidate any claim by staff or contract photographers as well. If credits are given for specific photos or quoted text, that might leave some post-1923 items under copyright individually.--Hjal 15:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The Germs and Uni
It would be great if we could find sources for/more info on The Germs at uni.

There's unsourced info at the beginning of the history section of The Germs and unsourced and tagged information that's highly specific to the school in the beginning of the Darby Crash article. I'll add it to my list of things to research but if someone knows anything or can point me to sources it would be really helpful.

There's also relevant discussion on the Darby Crash talk page.

I'm also looking for info on the teacher walkouts/strikes at Uni. Miss Mondegreen | Talk  11:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Picture request
I would like for someone to take a picture of University High School (In 2007) so that I can post it in Wikipedia articles :) WhisperToMe 19:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * articles? plural? anywhere in particular? what I said on my talk page goes for uni too. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   01:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I often post the same picture in various articles - E.G. I only need one shot of Uni, which will work on the school article itself, as well as LAUSD's list of schools, LAUSD, Brentwood, Bel-Air, etc. WhisperToMe 01:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)