Talk:University Institute of Engineering and Technology, Panjab University

Notability
I have strong reservations about the notability of the subject. I don't see how it is different from a faculty or department in a university - something we very seldom have articles about. I don't see significant coverage by secondary sources either - the only thing I see is one ranking, 31st by Outlook - not very promising or notable. This issue was raised before, which was the reason for the create block. The article was only released from the block to be created as a redirect. Rather than simply reverting, I am leaving this here for a short discussion, barring very strong sources for notability, it will be reverted to the redirect. --Muhandes (talk) 09:06, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Addendum: after looking more carefully at the material it mostly seems to be copyright violations - copy pasted from either the official website (which is copyrighted) or other sources. I am obviously going to remove all blatant violations, and I ask here that they are not restored. This just strengthens the problem of lack of notability. --Muhandes (talk) 09:09, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I did my best - I removed most blatant copyvios and moved things around. At this point I'm quite convinced the article fails the requirements for notability, but I'll leave it be for a day or two for discussion and addition of significant coverage. --Muhandes (talk) 11:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

University Institute of Engineering & Technology is an in-campus "Institute" of Panjab University. It is a self-financed institution. It does needs a separate page as it is not only a University Department, but it is having its own Identity in India. It is having affiliation from the "All-India-Council-For-Technical-Education". It is having more than 2500 students, built in 15 Acres in the South Campus of Panjab University, Chandigarh.

About the Information about Hostels and Library, UIET is having its own Library plus University's Main Library is accessible to its students. Please visit the official Website of the Institute.

Please remove the Notability Clause from this page. —--SARVPRIYE SONI, Student Of B.E CSE, Panjab University, Chandigarh 16:35, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Really Sorry about the copyright, it is my fault that i just overlooked the fact that copying from the official site is also copyright, but i believe someone could take permissions for that too. Everything aside, one thing i can assure you is that 'Outlook', 'Mint', 'IndiaToday' are the best 3 surveys for colleges in India, No one would doubt that in India. Even the WIkipedia page for College Rankings has Outlook Survey ! :) Anshul Kashyap (talk) 15:20, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * @Muhandes, maybe this was the reason... I being a resident of Chandigarh, India believed that this college to have high reputation and notability in India. My cousin passed out from the college, so know quite a bit about it. Even i am hoping to get admission in it one day(so that can be a Day scholar)! :) Its one of the rising on song colleges these days! :) Ask any Indian friends if you like :) Anshul Kashyap (talk) 15:57, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * This article has now been supported by WikiProjects India and WikiProject Chandigarh. Do you think, the Notability tag can be removed now?

SARVPRIYE SONI(Wanna Talk?) 14:32, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Request
I request WikiPedians from WikiProject-Chandigarh to please help sorting out things here on this page. I request all the WikiGnomes from WikiProject_India and WikiProject-Chandigarh to please save this page, as University Institute of engineering & technology is one of the prestigious Institutions of the country.SARVPRIYE SONI, Student Of B.E CSE, Panjab University, Chandigarh 16:43, 24 June 2011 (UTC) SARVPRIYE SONI, Student Of B.E CSE, Panjab University, Chandigarh 16:43, 24 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarvpriye (talk • contribs)

Request
I request to all Wikipedians from WikiProject Chandigarh and WikiProject India to Please save this

Request
I request to all Wikipedians from WikiProject Chandigarh and WikiProject India to Please save this page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.211.87.146 (talk) 10:04, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Another request
I request WikiPedians from WikiProject-Chandigarh to please help sorting out things here on this page. I request the WikiGnomes from WikiProject-India and WikiProject-Chandigarh to please save this page, as University Institute of engineering & technology is one of the prestigious Institutions of the country and is a pride to the city.SARVPRIYE SONI, Student Of B.E CSE, Panjab University, Chandigarh 16:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarvpriye (talk • contribs)


 * I've put all the requests in a collapsible section. Requests which are not backed up by anything are meaningless. They are, if at all, going to reduce the chance of keeping the page. But do go on.

Institute/Department discussion
According to my research in WIkipedia, Departments of Universities do not require a separate page and should be merged until and and unless they have a separate identity(like an institute). I also read that even departments can have a page if the University has a lot of other departments and if that department is one of the main departments of the University. This way UIET has around 2100-2200 students(maybe more) out of 13,000 students of the University and is a major Part of the University in all respects(In respect to Infra, Faculty,Staff,Politics as well) Moreover, I confirmed that UIET is an institute and not just a department. This can be explained the following way: The Panjab University has 'HOD(Head of Department)' as the authority for all its departments, while UIET has the authority as the 'Director' under whom there are 6 more 'HOD(Head for Department)'. Thus, this way UIET is considered a separate Identity. Anshul Kashyap (talk) 18:08, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

University Institute of Engineering and Technology is definitely not just a department of Pajab University, it is a full-fledged engineering institute. An institute very similar to UIET is Chandigarh College of Engineering and Technology (CCET). CCET is another college under Panjab University and has a wiki page of its own which makes it all the more certain for UIET to have one. In terms of affiliations from government bodies too, UIET and CCET have the very same status, both being Engineering colleges under Panjab University. Therefore this article should not be reverted on the grounds of UIET being 'just another department of Pajab University'--Swasti Bhatia (talk) 19:25, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Since lots of people here don't seem to know what talk page etiquette is about, I sorted the page a bit. To answer all questions, let me quote from the template itself:

Please help to establish notability by adding reliable, secondary sources about the topic.


 * See, that you think it is important is meaningless. Everything you might say is meaningless without significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. That's what WP:GNG and WP:BIO require. So far all I see are two rankings, none of which have significant coverage. --Muhandes (talk) 21:26, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, I want to thank Swasti Bhatia for convincing me UIET is not notable by giving CCET as an example. CCET has it's own domain (ccet.org). UIET's domain uiet.puchd.ac.in is part of puchd.ac.in, just like the history department history.puchd.ac.in. CCET has it's own logo. UIET shares the Panjab University logo, just like the history department. CCET has it's own campus. UIET is an on campus institute. UIET looks more and more like a glorified department of Panjab University. If you want to establish otherwise you will need very significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, just as I said above. --Muhandes (talk) 21:41, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Coverage, hmmm.. i am not really sure what you mean by that, by in the literal sense, Both the Sources are popular print media in India. Infact, I am not really sure which other thing can be provided if these rankings are worthy. Even if we search for Engineering College rankings in India. There are only 4-5 Print Media who take out these rankings and whose rankings can be cited. As i said before even Wikipedia uses the Outlook Ranking(Magazine) if not the Hindustan Times -Mint(newspaper). Kindly search for both on google, Mint is the most read newspaper in Delhi region and even outlook Magazine is pretty reputed. Kindly Google them both. Anshul Kashyap (talk) 21:55, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I guess Swasti Bhatia was saying the opposite thing. And as far the the logo is concerned, as i mentioned before, UIET's Logo is in the Process of Being made. Kindly Check out UICET, University Institute of Chemical Engineering Technology, Panjab University. You Would notice that even they have a separate logo. Only the 'Institutes' can have their own logo, the departments cannot. Moreover, the names of both are different. If we see the University Website, The Departments are named as 'Economics Department, Physics Department, Etc. Whereas the few 'Institutes' of the University have the word 'Institute'in their name.
 * The University has affiliation with many off-campus institutes all over Punjab. the fact that it is on-campus makes it even more prestigious. Anshul Kashyap (talk) 22:02, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * http://www.mdraonline.com/Expertise.aspx, For the Print Media(Magazine) -Outlook, this is the Company which does the survey for them and http://www.cfore.org/ does the surveys for Hindustan Times. We could check if these organizations are reliable or not Anshul Kashyap (talk) 22:07, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Coverage means the subject was reported on, written about, described, commentated on, or in any other way details about the subject were published (in reliable sources that are independent of the subject). Rankings are not considered coverage at all, since although they are reliable and independent, they just mention the subject, they don't discuss it.
 * I am well aware that Swasti Bhatia was aiming to show the other thing, but he managed to convinced me of the opposite of what he meant.
 * I am well aware of The fact that the naming does not include "faculty", which is why this discussion is even taking place - to determine if there is significant coverage showing that it isn't a mere faculty named differently.
 * As for being on campus, it may be more prestigious, but less notable. Please read WP:N about the distinction. --Muhandes (talk) 22:56, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If UIET is the only Engineering college affiliated to Panjab University, then an article may not be merited. The outlook rankings and prestige is a non-issue. We can include that in the main Panjab University article under the relevant section.  Lynch 7  05:00, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

First of all thanks a lot to all of you for taking interest and spending so much time on this page. Panjab University has the following engineering faculties both on and off campus.

On Campus Off Campus CCET(Chandigarh College of Engineering and Technology) is also in Chandigarh and is the under the purview of Panjab University. The Irony is that UIET is indirectly managing the syllabus/Format/Examination/Externals of Both SGGPURC - http://ssgpurch.puchd.ac.in/ (puchd domain) and CCET - http://www.ccet.ac.in/ on behalf of Panjab University. Both the institutions have separate pages in wikipedia. The rankings even with respect to the cut-offs are much better http://chdenggadmissions.nic.in/PDF/rank_list_2010.pdf. Chandigarh also had a 3rd Engineering College(now a university - PEC), which was also affiliated to the University till 2003 - http://pec.ac.in/institute/aboutpec.asp. So there even was a time when there was another Engineering Institute with Panjab University. Even If he leave aside other institutions, just talking about UIET. There are different Departments having separate 'Head of departments' reporting to the Director-UIET, now also having Dual-Courses(B.E.+ M.B.A.) and Doctoral Courses. http://uiet.puchd.ac.in/ UIET has more than 2200 students(1/7 times the total strength of Panjab University-14,000 including correspondence)and more than 100 faculty members. I know, we would have to provide proper citations(i need your help!), I think we wont be able to provide all the information if we have it merged with Panjab University. UIET was established in 2002, if not now, I guess we would need this page within the next year.There are a lot of pages reporting/discussing on the events/conferences/camps organized by UIET, i dont know if that counts as discussing UIET. Anshul Kashyap (talk) 11:03, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sophisticated Analytical Instrumentation Facility, CIL and UCIM (Department)
 * Stem Cell & Tissue Engineering (Department)
 * University Institute of Chemical Engineering & Technology (Institute)
 * University Institute of Engineering & Technology (Institute)
 * Swami Sarvanand Giri Regional Centre(SGGPURC)
 * Biotechnology
 * Electrical and Electronics
 * Electronics and Communications
 * Computer Science
 * Mechanical
 * Information and Technology
 * Management Courses
 * Doctorate Courses


 * http://chdenggadmissions.nic.in/AboutUs.htm All the Engineering Institutions of this councelling(Check Link)have separate Wiki Pages(Except UIET) irrespective that UIET is ranked much higher than the rest (Except PEC). I guess it would give a pretty wrong impression to any outsider who is dependent on Wikipedia Anshul Kashyap (talk) 11:20, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Kindly Check out these links, These are newspaper links if it can be of any use I guess, Not all of them might be reliable sources, but still these are reviews on UIET by 3rd party sites -- Anshul Kashyap (talk) 12:49, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.dayandnightnews.com/2011/06/rush-for-professional-colleges-begin-students-turn-out-in-huge-numbers/
 * http://www.indianexpress.com/news/online-counselling-for-institutes-under-aieee-from-this-year/803380/
 * http://www.successcds.net/IndiaColleges/Engineering/UIET-Chandigarh-University-Institute-of-Engineering-and-Technology.html
 * http://www.indiastudychannel.com/colleges/3971-University-Institute-Engineering-Technology.aspx
 * http://www.globalshiksha.com/college/University-Institute-of-Engineering-and-Technology/11903160013723
 * http://www.minglebox.com/college/University-Institute-of-Engineering-and-Technology-Chandigarh-UIET-C
 * http://www.dspacedev2.org/institution/university_institute_of_engineering_and_technology.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anshul Kashyap (talk • contribs) 15:54, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you provide the wikilinks to these separate colleges please?  Lynch 7  13:02, 26 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Sure, the wikilinks are provided below, apart from that I can provide links for 3rd party links of various engineering colleges in Chandigarh, Have done quite some research recently,but can you just guide me a little more, What all links are actually acceptable (Please give examples from this page itself) Anshul Kashyap

--(talk) 14:07, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCET
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_Engineering_College
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Sarvanand_Giri_Panjab_University_Regional_Centre,_Hoshiarpur
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandigarh_College_of_Architecture
 * PEC is now a university I believe. Lets see what Muhandes says. BTW, is UIET located inside the University campus?  Lynch 7  15:54, 26 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ya PEC has now been given a status of a University, It is no-doubt the better institute(its page needs to improved i guess)- it was developed pretty before but was a part of Panjab University before it got its University status, and ya UIET is In-Campus as in... Panjab University is pretty huge, so they have a south campus and a north campus, like Delhi University. The North Campus is more developed as it is the older one(having most of the faculties). On the other hand UIET, was established in 2002, so it is in the less developed South Campus(has 3 institutes as of now - UIET, Dental, Manaagement Institute(UIAMS) and 2 hostels Anshul Kashyap (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary break
In general I think there is much confusion between fame, importance, or popularity and on the other hand, notability. An institute can be very famous and important, yet not notable, see WP:N.

I'll use numbered bullets to try to summarize where I stand in regards to the material above.
 * 1) I don't see the fact that there are separate colleges with articles as substantial. Affiliated colleges are always discussed as separate entities, they all have their own logos, webpages, they are separately funded and managed, they have their own campus, etc. They are, apart from academic affiliation, completely separate. My concern was that UIET does not have any of these indicators. It shares them all with the university.
 * 2) The fact that UIET dictates things to the other colleges is, in my opinion, almost a proof it is not an entity on itself. By law, the only entity which can dictate syllabi to an affiliated college is the university. If UIET does it, they are a department of the university.
 * 3) Is UIET funded separately by the UGC or other central/state sources? If it is, it would be a strong point towards notability. If it's not, it means UGC gives a lump sum and the administration decides how much UIET gets. I'd say that's how departments work, not separate institutes. While not a proof, I think this can help decide.
 * 4) Nevertheless, if the sources provided would have been reliable, I would have said UIET is notable per WP:GNG. Are they? I can't say. --Muhandes (talk) 07:53, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I'll try and reply to the corresponding points(some points may be repetitions):
 * 1) Panjab University allows only its institutes to have their own domain and logos, and thus even UIET can have one the same way as UICET, http://uicet.ac.in/ and http://uicet.puchd.ac.in/, Both are official websites. Similarly, you would notice UICET has its own logo aswell.Regarding campuses, I would give the example of Delhi University here.
 * 2) UIET dictates things to other colleges because it comes under the purview of Panjab University no doubt and is asked to control other colleges(as what i know)- could not find any source regarding this. But according to my sources when PEC(being a better and older department) controlled UIET when Panjab University had both of them under its purview.
 * 3) We cant really comment on the administrative funding UIET gets(could only find a link which i attached), only the authorities could comment on the actual detail.
 * 4) Since i have put in most of the citations, i can assure at least 90% are more than reliable information(especially that published in reputed newspapers/magazines(mainstream news publishing) of India and are reliable and independent of the subject). Only certain Internet citations may not be that reliable(which could be removed after checking)


 * Apart from the publications in media(which according to me meet most of the points in WP:GNG), i could not find any other easy way to give proper citations of notability(neither could i find any good examples looking at a number of Wiki pages of other Indian Colleges. I believe we would find it pretty hard to provide other kind of citations for educational institutions). I think, we should involve editors of Wikiproject Chandigarh, as they might be able to provide more citations.


 * Last point, i would say is that UIET has departments under itself, and i believe a department cannot have multiple departments under its purview. The 'department of biotechnology' rank was also added recently Anshul Kashyap (talk) 12:57, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

A few Links of television coverage of a 'SAE India Effiycle-2010'- event organized by UIET, if that helps:
 * http://archive.tellytube.in/video/Vaif9qRu1KY/EFFICYCLE-1.html
 * http://archive.tellytube.in/video/CK_CsPMPq9c/-EFFICYCLE2-mpeg4.html
 * http://archive.tellytube.in/video/irHsjd53yHE/EFFICYCLE-3.html
 * http://wn.com/opinderpreet90 Anshul Kashyap (talk) 13:18, 27 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Kindly, check out the link: http://effi.saenis.org/media.html. This is one of the several events that UIET has organized in recent times. Effi Cycle(http://effi.saenis.org) is the official annual event of Society of Automotive Engineers, India. You would be glad to see the amount of media coverage a single event of UIET has received. Apparently, whatever might be the status of UIET, it surely seems notable WP:N.Chirag.goel (talk) 05:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Following are a few more links of third party websites featuring UIET:
 * http://www.indiaeducationdiary.in/showEE.asp?newsid=3496
 * http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-03-17/chandigarh/28048637_1_attendance-uiet-parents
 * http://www.indianexpress.com/news/uiet-students-can-check-attendance-status-o/390686/ Chirag.goel (talk)

Following are the links of another event of BAJA organized by UIET:
 * http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-12-31/chandigarh/28101186_1_vehicle-hits-uiet-engine
 * http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/keyword/engineering-and-technology/featured/5  Chirag.goel (talk)


 * I'm not sure why you people are wasting time with links to events organized by UIET. Every major department can organize events, this is completely irrelevant to the subject.
 * While I am still not convinced, I am not convinced it should be deleted either, so I am not going to propose it. Good luck. --Muhandes (talk) 08:14, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Help Required..
We need to improve this article by providing more information with proper citations.. Kindly step forward and do the needful Anshul Kashyap (talk) 19:28, 2 July 2011 (UTC)