Talk:University and college admission/Archive 1

Removed this section:

"A 2005 Princeton study showed Asians (not whites) bear nearly 80% of the cost of affirmative action in college admissions. Nearly four out of every five  spots given to blacks and Hispanics in an affirmative-action regime would go to Asians in a purely merit-based system.

The cost or benefit of college affirmative action in terms of SAT points (on 1600-point scale) is as follows:


 * Blacks: +230
 * Hispanics: +185
 * Asians:  &minus;50
 * Recruited Athletes: +200
 * "Legacies" (children of alumni): +160

"

Using one study to make a bold conclusion plus the bold text present an agenda. Any in-depth discussion of affirmative action, which doesn't appear in this article must be more balanced.

lots of issues | leave me a message 09:52, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Lotsofissues. You removed the sentence "The process is entirely decentralized." Could you explain why? In the US, unlike many other countries, there is no one organization or standard procedure that determines where a student will be accepted. You may get into Harvard but not Yale, U Mass but not U Connecticut. Each institution has its own criteria. It used to be the case that there were some "gentleman's agreements" about scholarships and perhaps even admissions, but they have been ruled illegal (as antitrust violations) by the courts. Yes, there are standard tests (SAT etc.), but each college gives them a different weight and (again, unlike some other systems) it is perfectly possible for one student to score higher than another yet not get into the same college. So in what way is the system centralized? --Macrakis 23:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Macrakis,

I define centralized admissions by application procedures. If all universities submitted to one common app such as the UCAS then the process is centralized. Although there is greater independence in the US, 300 private universities use the common app and most state systems use a single application. lots of issues | leave me a message 01:15, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

The common application form is just that: a form. It is a convenient way of submitting standard information. Individual institutions can and do evaluate the information on it however they want. And for that matter it may well be a good idea to write a different essay for different colleges, even using a standard form. Moreover, though 277 colleges (including many prestigious ones) is a lot, that is still < 10% of all US colleges. Within a state system, I agree, things are often centralized, and there is a clear hierarchy such that (e.g.) SAT score 1200 gets you into the University of Centralia, SAT score 1000 gets you into Centralia State College, and SAT score 800 gets you into Centralia Community College. But that's within a state. All the above information is worth mentioning in the article, but the US system remains extremely decentralized compared to most other systems in the world. --Macrakis 15:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)\\

I removed this line: There is no standard hierarchy of 'difficulty' or 'prestige', so one student may be admitted to college A but not college B, yet another student may be admitted to B but not A.

I felt the statement that students may not be admitted to all choices was too obvious to be worth mentioning.

On another note, if you count trade colleges, CCs, etc. there are a few thousand colleges in the US but there are only about 700-800 4 year colleges and universities in the country. lots of issues | leave me a message 07:11, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

non-US college admissions
This is an extremely American-centered article. Does anyone reading this article know anything about college admissions elsewhere in the world? Rhesusman 16:35, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree entirely. I would be delighted if someone who knows about other systems could add information on them. --Macrakis 19:23, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Does anyone think it would be appropriate to A) flag this article as being in need of attention because it's American-centered? or B) to change the title to College admissions in the United States? Rhesusman 21:00, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The entire English Wikipedia is heavily US-oriented and to a lesser extent UK-oriented. I am not sure it is useful to add the "in need of attention" template to all those articles; we just need to recruit more editors from outside the US and the UK to work on the Wikipedia.  For this particular article, there is some content in the article University that really belongs here rather than there.  If in the end the article becomes unwieldy, it should be split into College Admissions in the US, ...in the UK and the Commonwealth, ... in Germanic Europe, in France and its former dependencies, etc. But I suspect that there are only a few really distinct systems in operation: the US-style system, the open admissions system, the high school results system, and the exam system. --Macrakis 21:45, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I added some information and links for Australia, and created a redirect from University admission. Cheers. Natgoo 23:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

stress and such
As a senior in the midst of the college application process, this article reads as a very dry presentation of things. Although I am biased by virtue of being in the middle of this mess, I would like to see some discussion on the stress of college apps for seniors and so forth. Evanbro 01:55, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * If you would like to write this up, please go ahead. Remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and should report on accepted objective evidence, not subjective impressions.  For example, it might be appropriate to summarize an article in the press on college admissions stress in the US, or comparing it to stress in other countries. --Macrakis 14:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Information about different types of university
The information below is very interesting, but there are some problems with it:


 * 1) It doesn't belong in the "College admissions" article, which is specifically about, um, admissions.  Perhaps it belongs in an article about higher education systems.
 * 2) It is written as advice, not as encyclopedic information, e.g. "applicants should weigh carefully".


 * In the United States, students have the choice of applying to over 2,800 four year colleges and universities, as well as many two year institutions. In deciding which schools to apply to, students need to take a variety of factors into account, including their individual grades and test scores, the subject they plan to study, and the type of institution where they believe they will be best served. Students can choose from research universities, liberal arts colleges and master's level universities.


 * Research universities are institutions that are primarily focused on research and preparing graduate and doctoral students. They also offer undergraduate education. Examples of research universities include the University of California at Berkeley, Columbia University, and Harvard. Liberal arts colleges, on the other hand, only provide undergraduate education. Contrary to what many believe, liberal arts colleges do not only offer programs in the arts or humanities; they also offer a full slate of science programs. Typically, however, they do not offer degrees in engineering, business, or other specialized professional programs. Examples of liberal arts colleges include Williams College, Beloit College, and Dickinson College. Master's level universities offer both undergraduate education and some graduate level programs. They also frequently offer professional undergraduate majors such as engineering, business and other specialized professional programs. Examples of Master's level universities include Southern Methodist University, San Diego State University, and Villanova University.


 * Each of the three types of schools have advantages and disadvantages that applicants should weigh carefully. While research universities do often offer access to cutting edge research facilities, they also tend to be larger schools. Often, classes are taught by graduate teaching assistants rather than full professors. Liberal arts colleges, on the other hand, tend to be smaller schools and are often located outside of metropolitan areas. However, even students at liberal arts colleges have many opportunities to engage in research and they are usually taught by full profesors, not teaching assistants. Master's level universities are often a mix of both the advantages and disadvantages of research universities and liberal arts colleges. Of course, there is also a wide variety of institutions within each category.

It's certainly valuable material, but I'd recommend it be put in more appropriate parts of the WP. --Macrakis 02:56, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

US-centric title
While I'd support having a college admissions in the United States article, if this really is meant to be a global article, it should be at university admissions, as "college" is a largely American term, whereas university is global. Ambi 03:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * not all American undergraduate institutions are universities (also offering graduate degrees). how about the all inclusive college and university admissions? --Jiang 05:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * That works. Ambi 05:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Tasmania
I corrected the Tasmanian section to make clear that Tasmanian students apply through the admissions centre corresponding to the institution they are applying for, rather than VTAC, but that doesn't really need to be stated there as it applies to most interstate (school leaver) applications. What is the source for the comment about interstate students appalying to UTas? VTAC lists UTas as one of its institutions, but the UTas admissions guide doesn't say anything about applying through VTAC. JPD (talk) 09:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Interstate students can apply through VTAC or directly to UTas, according to the UTas page 'How to Qualify'. I've edited to clarify. Thanks for picking up the error re: Tassie students applying for mainland uni's solely through VTAC - the info I have is from a Victorian source and I didn't double check. Natgoo 23:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

expand scope
I think this article should be expanded to education admission in general. In other countries other than the US, or even in the US itself, schools at the primary level may also have an admission system based on aptitude tests etc. Elle vécut heureuse à jamais  (Be eudaimonic!) 22:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yield protection
I removed this passage from the end of the Yield Protection section:
 * In truth, virtually all elite undergraduate institutions use methods of yield maximization, and consider a student's likelihood of attending foremost in their admissions decisions.

Unless someone can provide a verifiable reference for this, I don't think this kind of speculation has a place in Wikipedia. Starwiz 16:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Brazil
I've added a section on admission to Brazilian universities. Please feel free to correct/expand it. 161.24.19.82 13:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

article has gone to crap
It is impossible to have a different section on college (aka university) admissions requirements for every country in the world and still end up with a useful article. We can either 1) split everything by country into individual pages (ie into the individual "Education in ..." articles) or 2) elaborate on some general themes (American vs. British traditions). The term "college admissions" is really an American one, so most of the content here can be removed. --Jiang 07:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, it's the problem of having English as the dominant language of the planet, not a problem of this article. I fully support elaborating more on some general themes, but these should perhaps be more like: American, European, Australian, Chinese etc. traditions. Britain does not represent the Continent very well, after all, and Wikipedia is about the world, not about Anglo-Saxon countries. --MPorciusCato 12:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This is very hard to do and I'm just not sure how to go about doing it. Suggestions? The problem is that everytime we enter a new country, the rules are quickly changed, so any sort of detail is hard to work out. The term "College admissions" isnt really used outside the united states. --Jiang 07:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Title
The title of this article should be changed from "College Admissions" to "Admission to Higher Learning Institutions" or, better still, "Tertiary Education Admission". The problem with the current title is that the use of the term "college" as synonym for a degree-granting post-secondary educational establishment is really specific to American English. For differents meanings of "college" in other English-speaking countries, especially the UK, see the Wikipedia article on College. 200.177.7.254 13:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Article location
This keeps coming up but not proceeding far. Can I suggest College and university admissions, in line with Category:Colleges and universities? If there's no objection, I'll move it after 48 hours. Category:College admissions will also need renaming. Timrollpickering 23:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually "Universities and colleges" seems the more common form, though there's a wide mixture. I've just made a mega nomination at Categories for deletion/Log/2006 December 30 and I'd recommend then renaming this article in line with whatever form is adopted. Timrollpickering 03:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been a while, but due to other page names/moves, University and college admissions is now the form that best reflects this. If there's no objection I'll move the page after 48 hours. Timrollpickering 13:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

POV and unsourced or pooly sourced material
This material is not sourced or is poorly sourced (using unpublished or weak sources) - and is POV reading like original research. It needs to be sourced and re-written as NPOV. Also, since this a general page, this section should consist of a short introduction. If restored, please add to the main article: College admissions in the United States. See Neutral point of view and Attribution. -Classicfilms 17:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed on all counts. I've noticed this material before but never made the time to do anything about.  Thanks!  --ElKevbo 17:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Glad to help out! Thanks for the feedback. -Classicfilms 17:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Admissions criteria may be completely mechanical, especially at large public colleges: a threshold for grade point average and/or standardized test scores, or even simply a high-school diploma ('open admissions'). They may be completely subjective at some small colleges: a perceived motivational and intellectual 'fit' based on essays, interviews, and personal recommendations. Most colleges combine the two.

The application form typically asks applicants to provide details about their academic preparation, their extracurricular activities, and special talents. Additionally, the majority of schools require applicants to write one or more essays related to their personal backgrounds, obtain recommendations from one or more teachers and a representative of their school such as a guidance counselor or principal. The Common Application is a standardized admissions application used by 299 colleges and universities, including many of the most elite schools in the U.S. It can be submitted online and is a good way for students to minimize the paperwork associated with applying to colleges, and the only limit to the number of colleges that can be applied to by a single click of the mouse is set by the application fees that a student is willing to pay. These fees generally range from US $30-$70 per college applied to. Several high-end colleges, however, do not accept the Common Application; The Massachusetts Institute of Technology is one of these. Their philosophy is one of playing hard-to-get; the harder it is for a student to apply to a college, the more they will want to go once they are done.

The prestige, ranking, and presumably the quality of a college is roughly in inverse proportion to its acceptance rate; 10-30% of applicants at elite institutions are accepted, so admission is very competitive. Many students base the value of their entire high school education on entry into the college of their choice. Many magazine college rankings put a high emphasis on the acceptance rate, and thus an unfortunate trend in reduced acceptance rates purely for higher rankings may explain why it has and will continue to become harder to enter high-end colleges. Luckily, however, a good student has a massive range of colleges to choose from that will all serve their desire for a prestigious education. Because there are so many choices and each college has different criteria for determining a strong applicant, then applicants with sufficient quantitative qualifications are bound to strike a chord with the subjective evaluations of one high-end college. Hopefully, that college knows that the student is right for them because the college is right for the student.

Factors in admissions
College admissions in the United States are not centralized in any way &mdash; each among its thousands of undergraduate colleges develops its own system in house. Among the most important factors in college admissions are high school grades, difficulty of a student's high school course selection, and scores on the SAT or ACT, the nation's two most prevalent undergraduate admissions exams. The reputation of the high school can sometimes be important &mdash; admission to an Ivy is widely taken as an entitlement at the nation's top prep schools, even by mediocre students, though uncommon (and unattainable for all but the top 5-10% or so of students) at even the best public schools. Teacher recommendations are often considered, especially if other recommendations from that teacher are on file for comparison.

An underrated factor in attaining admission to elite colleges is the necessity that a student indicate interest in the college or university. However, many well-known universities disregard a student's interest when evaluating. Yield &mdash; the percentage of accepted students who attend that college &mdash; is taken by college deans and admissions officers to be the "bottom line" of an institution's prestige as well as an indicator of the direction of the school's reputation, valued even more than U.S. News-style rankings because it is objective. (Moreover, from a practical standpoint, a high yield rate reduces the statistical uncertainty in the composition of the incoming class.) To gain admission to an elite institution, an applicant must indicate steadfast intention on attending if accepted; this includes (if not requires) gestures such as attending a tour, requesting materials from the college, and interviewing with an alumnus/alumna of the college. At the most prestigious universities, however, such indication isn't always necessary. For example, Yale College notes on its admissions page that contacting the admissions office with questions, attending tours, and so on is not necessary for admission and, in fact, will not give preference to those who have. These top universities have so many applicants from so many regions of the world and of so many economic backgrounds that they cannot expect every applicant to tour the campus. At smaller, less competitive colleges, 'fit' (usually derived through demonstrated interest) becomes more important.

Of equal importance are extracurricular activities &mdash; clubs, service activities, and athletic or musical talents &mdash; though it is common for Americans to overestimate their importance in admissions. While it is very damaging to a student's application for him or her to have no extracurricular involvement, college admissions offices generally consider it impossible to measure or compare the quality of students' extracurricular activities. Consequently, most colleges are mostly indifferent to what an applicant has done in their high school career as long it has been fruitful, producing awards, recognition, and the like. While academic achievement is important, ultimately colleges are looking for applicants who will be a positive force in all aspects of college life.

There are some extracurricular activities that colleges tend to like. Professor Minh A. Luong of Yale University contends in his essay "Forensics and College Admissions" that of all extracurricular involvement, forensics activities increase an applicant's chance of admission.

According to the Wall Street Journal (Interactive Edition, April 16, 1999), college admissions directors are relying less on grade point averages and standardized test scores and are relying more on success in academically related extracurricular activities such as speech and debate as well as drama

The Wall Street Journal report did specifically highlight a "consistent trend" &mdash; one that forensic coaches have known for a long time &mdash; that dedicated participation in drama and debate has significantly increased the success rate of college applicants at all schools that track such data. State and national award winners have a 22%–30% higher acceptance rate at top tier colleges and being captain of the debate team "improved an applicant's chances by more than 60% compared with the rest of the pool," according to the report. This is significantly better than other extracurricular activities that tend to recruit from the same pool of students as forensic teams such as school newspaper reporter (+3%), sports team captain (+5%), class president (+5%), and band (+3%). Even without winning major awards, participation in speech and debate develops valuable skills that colleges are seeking out and that is reflected in the above average acceptance rate (+4%). Colleges and universities are looking for articulate thinkers and communicators who will become active citizens and leaders of tomorrow.

Ultimately, different colleges value different qualities at varying levels. To get a rough idea of what certain colleges look for, Princeton Review has a section where they weigh the values most important to each school.

Many top ranked school routinely deny admissions to many students with exceptionally high SAT scores and top high school grades. Instead, they focus first on which students would be capable of academically succeeding at the university and then look for "hooks": additional, usually non-academic, distinguishing characteristics. For example, under-represented minorities and applicants from smaller states are often admitted at higher rates than then equally qualified white or Asian students from northeastern prep schools. Applicants who have won awards or are tangibly considered the "best at something" often are more competitive. Participating in high school clubs is seen as less intensive than such activities as running a charity or winning a national competition.

Many colleges also use affirmative action to increase the racial and geographical diversity of the student body. Whites and Asians, especially from coastal states, are perceived to suffer a disadvantage by this policy, and therefore it is highly controversial. According to the study done at Princeton University in 2005, if racial preferences were eliminated, black and Hispanic acceptance rates would dramatically fall, and four out of five admissions spots that would have been offered to those students would instead be turned over to Asian students. The effect on admission rates for white students would not be pronounced. Study PDF of study

Children of a college's alumni receive preferential treatment in admissions &mdash; this is known as the legacy preference. If the family is a major donor to the college (giving $250,000 or more) the likelihood of a student's admission increases dramatically. Legacy admits are often preferred because the college wishes to maintain strong alumni ties &mdash; especially with those who contribute financially to the school.

Financial need
In need-blind admission, applicants are evaluated without regard to their ability to pay. However, need-blind admission does not necessarily mean that the financial need of an admitted student will be met. Only a handful of schools in the U.S. guarantee to meet 100% of the demonstrated financial need of all admitted students. It is therefore important to always ask colleges and universities, even those that are "need-blind" whether they guarantee to meet full need. If a school does not guarantee to meet full need, other important questions to ask include the percentage of students who apply for aid and have their full need met, the amount of an average financial aid package, and how the typical financial aid package is broken down (e.g., loans, grants, work study) Other schools practice what is called "need aware" admissions. In other words, they do consider the ability of students to pay in deciding who to admit.

Less well-endowed universities such as Tufts University and Washington University in St. Louis currently have need-based admissions policies, where some high-achieving applicants may be waitlisted or even rejected because the school cannot provide enough aid for the applicant's education. This is known as "admit-deny." Some of these schools will still meet the full financial needs, however dire, of the not-so-well-off students they accept. At the same time, schools such as Tufts have made need-blind admission their top priority, with the size of their endowment being the largest hurdle to adopting such a policy.

Few schools in the U.S. are need-blind for international applicants. For the most part, these are the most selective schools in the U.S. Additionally, very few U.S. schools offer any form of financial aid for international applicants. Some schools do offer merit scholarships, based on academic achievement, to international students even though they may not offer financial aid. "Full rides" to U.S. colleges and universities are extremely rare for international students. The few colleges that do set aside financial aid for international students often offer it only to the best qualified applicants. Therefore, international undergraduate students who need substantial financial aid to study in the United States must have exceptional grades and test scores to maximize their chances of receiving it.

All students applying for financial aid must complete the Free Application for Financial Student Aid (FAFSA). Many colleges and universities, particularly those who provide financial assistance beyond federal and state aid from their budgets or endowments, also require additional forms from applicants. International students have additional forms to complete before they can enroll, including a statement of finances required by the U.S. government.

Yield protection
Yield protection refers to the methods colleges and universities use to maximize yield (see above). Often, "yield protection" is taken as a charged term (hence, the euphemism "yield optimization") sometimes referring to the practice of waitlisting (that is, delaying a firm decision on the applicant's admission until further information about the applicant and incoming class emerge) or rejecting "overqualified" students and therefore signifying an institutional inferiority complex. (This is an extreme and rare form of yield optimization.)

Test/Exams????
Is SACE a test or project done in Yr 12 to determine grades to for students to get into uni? I always thought it was a project completed in your own time. But the page makes it seems like its a test. Angel2001 14:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC)