Talk:University of Florida Taser incident/Misc Deletion Comments

deletion discussions
I'm lumping all the deletion discussions here. They should have been at the AfD, which looks to be wrapping up. I'm not going to delete them outright. If admins want to do that, they can. superlusertc 2007 September 20, 23:32 (UTC)

I would definitely object to having them deleted. "Don't delete me, bro" goes for comments as well as the entire article. Who was it who said: "I don't like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!" Blueboar 00:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I can tell you who didn't say it. It wasn't Voltaire, who wasn't known for his willingness to put his life in jeopardy for anything.  Anyways, the comments never should have been here, and I've seen admins delete spam and other things that never should have been on a talk page before.  I'm not sure if this falls into that category, but I'm not one to delete comments.  Just saying that these will probably get moved off the page at some point, either to an archive or somewhere else. superlusertc 2007 September 21, 01:14 (UTC)

Not Notable
Some kid is removed from the mic for going over his allotted time. The people who remove him are police. He physically resists them, breaking free several times trying to get back to the mic while screaming that he hasn't done anything wrong. At this point I don't think their intent was to arrest him, but simply to remove him from the mic. He continues to resist. Police use a taser instead of wrestling with him. No reason for this article to exist. People get tasered all the time. I'd rather be tasered than end up with a dislocated arm or any bruises. There is very rarely any permanent damage (or damange that lasts longer than a few minutes, for that matter). \u2014Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.217.50 (talk) 14:46, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It's notable alright. Front page of most news organizations and it's likely that more will come of it, for right or wrong. Because of the publicity, people aregoing to rally around this as a free speech issue if not a police brutality issue. The right wing wagons are circling Kerry and that may last a while, especialy when they transfer Kerry's "inaction" in the matter to the Democratic party as a whole, as tends to happen. BURNyA 15:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Certainly notable. Front page news in every paper. Should probably mention his Harry Potter "protest" and his "comedy video" website, too. \u2014 Omegatron 17:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Any forcible restriction of our Constitutional Rights is a notable event... especially one so highly publicized. IXTJ 20:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well said... BURNyA 20:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Notable incident - alleged excessive force, using tasers on an unarmed non-violent student, on a university campus, with a former presidential candidate present. Possibly belongs as part of a larger article on  taser controversy, but the event is certainly notable. Crimson117 14:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

This event is as notable as the lone man in front of the tank in tiananmen square. Police restraint in the face of civil protest is important. I want to see passionate college students not weak drones. Even if students are wrong, and they often are, physical violence is not an appropriate response. This young man was afraid of what the police would do to him if he went with them. He cried out for help because he was afraid. It is a sad state of affairs when americans fear their own government officials. He was asking about the secret society Skull & Bones when he was grabbed. Having presidential candidates who have allegiance to secret societies concerns me too. I wanted to hear this young man's questions answered. I'm pretty sure that this article will be deleted. I'm sure that everything negative in this talk page will be edited out and sanitized. I'm afraid that these days free speech in america only exists in fiction.

I wonder why this student wasn't given a spot to ask a question. I get the impression that only supporters are given that privilege. This incident goes a long way to reinforcing the belief that our present government is fascistic and authoritarian.. No one was in any danger from this student. Why did they arrest him for talking? I thought the police acted like a brute squad. I am reminded of the Hell's Angels doing security at Altamont Speedway. 67.163.247.142 23:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

My vote would be to keep this, but no one's Constitutional Rights were restricted. It was his own fault what happened. Also, I think this page should be moved to University of Florida taser incident... no need to capitalize "taser". Captain Phoebus 20:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * He restricted the constitutional free speech rights of the other students he interrupted, no?
 * Taser is a brand name, and is capitalized. There are other companies that make electroshock guns. \u2014 Omegatron 20:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * from what i've read he didn't interrupt anyone. he demanded the floor after kerry had fielded his last question, and kerry then said he would answer meyer's questions. he was tasered after he was more than contained...it may not be a constitutional rights issue, but it seems like a clear case of excessive force, which is usually notable when caught on tape. rodney king is notable, no?
 * He was tasered after violently struggling to escape a lawful arrest (and after being repeatedly warned that he'd be tasered if he didn't stop struggling). It's not a civil rights issue. 128.221.197.20 22:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It was NOT violent; not in the least. He was unarmed, and I've seen the video, and you're wrong, it was not violent in the least. If so, tell me, then, what was he doing that was so violent? Simply resisting arrest is not violent. It is an incident of police brutality and inadequacy. It's also not the police's place to intervene on something like this. We don't live in a police state (or do we?). The whole situation was a terrible act of inadequacy, excessive force, and stupidity at best and a tragic piece of evidence that this country has fascist elements at worse.
 * you're right. tasering is serious, usually something reserved for violent individuals that law officers cannot control. meyer may have been struggling, but you have to ask a few questions: 1) did meyer pose a physical threat to any civilians or police officers before they restrained him (or after, for that matter)? he never threatens to harm anyone, and nobody seems to have been harmed by him, despite his struggles. 2) did the officers have him successfully contained when they decided to tase him? i believe so, especially when meyer pleads "just let me go and i'll walk out of here". obviously they didn't have to let him go, but i think that shows (along with the rest of the video) that meyer's resistance was fairly passive. he did resist, no question, but it was more verbal and passively physical than outright aggressive, and he never made an attempt to harm anyone. therefore the use of tasers is highly excessive. tasers can kill, and have killed, hundreds of times. if meyer had a heart problem, he could have died.

As for whether it is noteworthy, those who said it isn't are also wrong: anything that gathers this much attention is noteworthy. It's noteworthy anyway, but especially considering the coverage it is getting (so quickly), it is even more noteworthy.andrewlargemanjones  \u2014Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.215.87.36 (talk) 22:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Omegatron. Taser is a brand name. (it is also an acronym.) It should be capitalized. Johntex\talk 21:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Notable incident - allegations of excessive force. Sure to be an issue during the campaign. Johntex\talk 21:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What campaign are you referring to? Dlabtot 23:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The 2008 United States Presidential election, of course. People are already trying to spin this as a political issue.  Search "Kerry Taser" and read some of the hits. Johntex\talk 23:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And in which 2008 Presidential candidate's campaign would this issue be relevant, considering that Kerry is not a candidate? Dlabtot 23:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * All of them. It is a general issue.  As I suggested, do the search and read some of the hits and you will see what I mean.  Johntex\talk 23:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Bleh, I also don't agree that it should have an article, as wikipedia is not news, maybe merge to the kerry article Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 02:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The following was removed because it is completely irrelevant to the incident: Meyer, a former writer for The Independent Florida Alligator wrote "I absolutely love the thought that some nonsense I wrote irritated people enough for them to take time out of their day to let everyone know how much they disliked what I wrote" in one of his columns. 128.223.56.152 15:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The above was removed again for the same reason. 128.223.56.152 21:26, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * While your opinion as an individual as to what is and is not relevant is welcome, Wikipedia articles are written by consensus. Dlabtot 21:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The only part of this scandal that is worthy of Wikipedia is the fact that Mr. Meyer was completely restrained on the ground by at least 4 police officers at the time that electro-shock was administered. Any other facts related to his apprehension are of trivial nature, in my opinion. Eventually, this article could be merged with the general police brutality article and the taser controversy article. Attempts at establishing the student as a wild man or an instigator are completely below the level of importance that should be upheld on Wikipedia. It appears to the casual reader that his unrelated wild behavior is somehow being used as a justification for being electrocuted, which is, of course, not appropriate here. 128.223.56.152 21:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe this more is notable now as the phrase Don't Tase me bro, is beginning to go around as an internet phenomenon. --Arvash 19:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree... it will be notable (for an encyclopedia) if the phrase "Don't Tase me bro" is still going around as an internet phenomenon in a month's time. Blueboar 20:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

AfD
This article has been nominated for deletion. See here. [Tyler] (talk/contribs) 04:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion Tag
The article has been tagged for deletion, however an entry for September 18, 2007 in the deletion request page does not appear. Without an entry here the reason for this nomination cannot be discussed properly. No reason is given here either. This smacks of vandalism. William (Bill) Bean 13:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It showed up the next day. See Articles for deletion/Log/2007 September 19. CWC 15:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Please, there is no need for unwarranted cries of vandalism. The discussion is there now for all to participate.  Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 16:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If an article is tagged NPOV without cause and then nominated for deletion without that nomination appearing where the entire community can find it...well, what else would be assumed? By the way "this smacks of vandalism" is not the same as saying "this is vandalism." Happy to clear that up for you. Follow proper procedure people! William (Bill) Bean 00:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The article was nominated for deletion and posted to the log within a minute of each other (using TWINKLE), each at 4:06. ObiterDicta ( pleadings \u2022 errata \u2022 appeals ) 01:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF are also part of "proper procedure". Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 16:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

National Significance
Worth keeping. Ian 22:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Notable for Wikipedia vs. notable for Wikinews
I have stated this on the AfD page... but I think it is worth stating here. I think the event is notable and should be reported... but I have a real problem with reporting on it at Wikipedia instead of Wikinews. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. As such we should not be reporting on events that are still taking place (that is what Wikinews is for). This event is still unfolding. We don't know what the ramifications and impact of this event will be. Personally, I do think think this is going to end up as a major event... and I think we should have an article in Wikipedia... I just don't think it should have one YET. It isn't encyclopedic YET... it is still news. We need to wait and see what the ramifications, impact and outcome of this event will be before we have an article on it. Move it to something like Wikinews for now, and recreate it on Wikipedia later. Blueboar 20:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * So you'd like to have everything in Current_events deleted too? It's quite normal and acceptable to write about high-profile events as they occur.  That's Wikipedia's job; to be a reliable source of neutral information about important events, to provide the details that news reports don't. - Omegatron 23:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Re:Current events portal page... No... I consider the Current Events page to be an exception. For one thing, it isn't an article.  It is an inter wiki "extra"... it contains brief blurbs on the news, and links to wikinews for more in-depth coverage of the events.  I agree with you that Wikipedia's job is to be a reliable source of neutral information about important events... we just disagree on when it is appropriate to write about the event.  Our job is to write in depth articles about events, not to report events as they happen.  We are an encyclopedia, not as a news outlet... to me writing an encyclopedia requires having some perspective on the event... and you can not get perspective on something while it is going on.  Oh... as for providing the details that news reports don't... careful with that, remember No Original Research applies for current events as well as any other article. Blueboar 00:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

{(UF student taser incident)}
Wikipedia:

This web page should not be deleted. It contains factual events that could be linked to opinion, yet are not necessarily negative towards the biography of Mr. Kerry. It occurred at Mr. Kerry town hall forum in Gainsville, Florida. -Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdemosth (talk # contribs) 14:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Should be kept
The wide news coverage that this incident has brought (both in mainstream media and the blogosphere), and the viral video (http://feeds.wired.com/~r/wired/topheadlines/~3/158792950/dont-tase-me-br.html) cannot be ignored. It is notable enough in many ways (and remember that wikipedia even has a Leeroy Jenkins article). At least it should be added to the University of Florida article, although I don't think that's appropriate. --Miguel1626 02:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Good. That goes on Articles for deletion/University of Florida Taser incident, not here. superlusertc 2007 September 20, 03:05 (UTC)

Sorry, about that. Still learning about proper Wikipedia procedure ;) --Miguel1626 20:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Should Not Be Deleted
I feel it should not be deleted. It maybe merged to John Kerry or UF. But This is my humble Opinion. --ThanosMadTitan23 23:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The deletion discussion is taking place here. - Crockspot 23:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is this article being considered for deletion?
I think it's pretty notable. We should keep it yo. -Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.71.3.253 (talk) 23:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A lot of people agree with you... However, looking at the AfD, a lot of people disagree as well, hence the AfD nomination. Me... I take a somewhat unique stance.  I think it is, only now, just beginning to be notable for inclusion in an encyclopedia.  I think it was a mistake to write an article on this one day after the event took place (it was still to recent for us to assess its impact and notability in an enclyclopedic way}... we should have waited a while for all the facts to come out, and for any ramifications to become apparent. That is only now beginning to happen. But I doubt many people share my view. Blueboar 00:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * First, the deletion discussion is going on at Articles for deletion/University of Florida Taser incident, not here. Secondly, BlueBoar, I agree with you.  If you look on the deletion discussion page, quite a few people seem to be saying the same thing. superlusertc 2007 September 23, 04:12 (UTC)

Alachua County in the 2000 election
Greg Palast, in his response to the Taser incident, states that Alachua County, Florida was "just about the worst" of the United States' 5000+ counties in the disenfranchisement of black voters in the 2000 presidential election. Video24.93.190.134 16:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, why I did not include Alachua County portion of the Greg Palast quote is a very good question. Alachua County, was in fact the primary subject that Greg Palast was addressing in the piece I quoted from. I only included the portion of the Greg Palast quote that said that he thought Andrew Meyer was referring to chapter 4, because Armed Madhouse discusses many other topics besides the 2004 election. I did not include the Alachua county of the Greg Palast quote because Meyer did not mention Alachua County. Meyer specifically mentioned by name Volusia County and generically referred to minorities being disenfranchised in Florida and Ohio. I could not find any links to the text of Armed Madhouse itself, so I had to substitute other articles Greg Palast had written, so a reader of the WikiPedia could follow up on Mr. Palast's arguments on the web without having to physically get their hands on a copy of his book. No, this information is at the core of the incident. On one hand Andrew Meyer was rude, he cut in line, he was loud, he was grandstanding, he was abusive, he used a crude word like blowjob, on the other hand, as long and rambling as his questions were, Mr. Meyers' two minutes were not up. Mr. Meyers was startled when the mike was cut off and sarcastically or ironically said, "Thank you for cutting off my mike." There is some evidence that his mike was turned for the content of his speech. Andrew Meyer was not cut off by Senator Kerry, he was not cut off by Ambassador Jett, he was cut off and removed from on orders of someone from ACCENT or the police, based in part on the content of his speech. Where was Ambassador Jett and why wasn't he moderating the event? Why was Senator Kerry left in the position of having to cut off someone making a personal attack on him? Are there any witnesses or articles that would clarify why Ambassador Jett was not running the show? Jim.Callahan,Orlando 05:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Please find a better place to post such material, as it is irrelevant to this incident. Nosferatublue 16:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really. This "coincidence" is actually the crux of the first question Meyer had asked (Meyer was holding Palast's book during the incident), and which Kerry was attempting to asnwer. Telling another editor to "shut up" is not becoming of you. Badagnani 17:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC) Correct. I brought the subject up in case editors decide Palast's comment is of import to this article, since it is sourced and coming from the individual who wrote the book to which Meyer referred in his first question (and which Kerry said he had read). I do appreciate all this education I'm getting about WP procedures, though--very helpful! Badagnani 19:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:TALK: The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. - this talk page is not a discussion forum about the 2004 election or any other issue raised by Mr. Meyer. Dlabtot 17:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Middle Initial
I've searched UF's student directory and came up with two options: Andrew J. Meyer and Andrew W. Meyer. Anyone know which one it is?00:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's in the police report (PDF file linked in article). Badagnani 22:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Do we have a link to his website?
Does anyone have a link to his personal website so we can see if he really is a prankster?  Leafy plant  02:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Andrew Meyer's website: http://theandrewmeyer.com/ Jim.Callahan,Orlando 17:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It's already posted in external links 121.67.251.75 02:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The site lists his activities as "getting wasted" and "being ridiculous." Revolutionaryluddite 02:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Both arrestable offences where I hail from. 121.67.251.75 02:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The local10 article cites his website as evidence that this stunt may have been planed. Aside from a few barely funny You-Tube videos, it seems like the website of a typical UF student. I see nothing on his website that suggests that this was a prank. His website does, however, suggest that he has strong political opinions.  Leafy plant  02:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Was he Tasered?
I have seen the videos and can't see any evidence that he was tasered. Is there any confirmation besides him yelling "don't taser me" and then screaming? \u2014Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.27.66.175 (talk) 05:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/09/andrew_meyer_deserved_to_be_ta.php

71.77.200.70 05:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC) by Himler


 * Read the police report (the PDF file); it states that he was "drive stunned" with the Taser. Badagnani 05:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The police report statement of Office Pablo DeJesus states that the Police applied a "contact tase," which seems equivalent to what WikiPedia describes as a "drive stun." I have added a block quote from that section of the Police report to the article. The block quote also establishes the fact that one of Andrew Meyer's hands was already handcuffed when he was tasered. Jim.Callahan,Orlando 22:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protected?
The article is marked as semi-protected, yet unregistered editors are still able to edit (and in at least one case, vandalize) the article. How is this so? - Walkiped (T 00:46, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it's not actually semi-protected. Some goof just put the tag up there.  I'll leave him a note. superlusertc 2007 September 20, 02:47 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, it was actually protected for a brief period. superlusertc 2007 September 20, 02:51 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clearing that up. - Walkiped (T 04:14, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

John Levy
I think that John Levy's statements, quoted in an entire paragraph, are given undue weight. Revolutionaryluddite 03:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the paragraph gives undue weight. However, Levy's comments on what Meyer told him (hearsay) provide insight into Meyer's POV. I found it odd that the article omits that Levy met Meyer in second grade (Washington Post article cited). Flatscan 04:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If John Levy's statements are about Meyer's personality and character, shouldn't they be moved to the 'Andrew Meyer' section? Revolutionaryluddite 16:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * After consideration, I think Levy's comments should be cut substantially. He's Meyer's friend (POV), the comments are hearsay, and their current length gives them undue weight. I'm against moving them before the description of the incident due to POV balance. Flatscan 03:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Andrew Meyer section
University of Florida Taser incident (wikilink will break if section renamed)

This section looks like it was merged from the Andrew Meyer article. I think it has unnecessary/irrelevant details. In addition to trimming the section, I suggest renaming it to "Student". Flatscan 21:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The whole thing was staged!
I read two sources that say Andrew Meyer staged the whole thing. Some of the cops were in on it, and Meyer knew he was going to be "tased"; how else would he know the term "tase" (as it is not something most people know). I think these sources should be included in the article. This is a "conspiracy theory" about this incident, I guess. It sounds plausible to me based on his previous history of pulling pranks. Timneu22 00:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see that you shared the sources. What are they? Badagnani 00:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh just google "andrew meyer the whole thing was staged." Some of the sources appear to be more credible than others, of course. Timneu22 01:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You'll have to provide links. I entered "andrew meyer the whole thing was staged" into Google as suggested and read the first 5 links. While there is evidence to suggest that Meyer arranged some of the video recording and dramatized/exaggerated on-camera (both already mentioned in the article), I didn't see anything that supported your other assertions. I've seen "tase" before, or Meyer could have shorted "Taser" on his own - it's hardly a technical term. Flatscan 02:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the officer was telling him "you will be Tased" before Meyer responded with that now-famous line. Badagnani 17:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The facts are that officers brutally silenced an opinionated student with less-lethal weapon on university campus. This can't be pardoned even in your twisted POV. Assaulting a kid on the floor by 6 officers with a dangerous weapon for voicing a question? Kerry wanted to answer him, there was nothing to prompt the police to do what they did. Public forum is public forum and speakers talk to each even with higher voices, thats the very point of it. We usually leave student with an urgent message to speak and then discuss it. He was laying handcuffed and grounded by 6 officers when being electrolucted, something what should certainly be investigated. He wanted to video tape Kerry's answers to his important questions, that is all that was "staged" here. If you want to trick us into thinking that somebody would want be tased by a stun weapon and then charged by police then think twice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.102.174.10 (talk) 08:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, that was a worthless rant! Timneu22 00:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)