Talk:University of Missouri–St. Louis/Archive 1

Edit Revert Questions
How is "of equal standing" not reflective of reality?
 * If you mean it as some sort of legal technicality -- then maybe it is true on paper, but then it should be explictly stated that this is what you mean. But, outside of the fact that they are all controlled by a common board of curators and president, I don't see how any unbiased person could reasonably believe that (for example) the University of Missouri - St. Louis is "of equal standing" as the University of Missouri - Columbia.  UMC is a nationally known university, with a 150+ year history, and is also the location of the University System's bueacracy.  UM-St. Louis is a much less well known, primarily commuter university that was started in 1963.  The simple fact that the the University's marketing or ASUM says they are equal does not make it true, and including this statement is biased and serves no purpose. Kenj0418 04:00, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

The "comparison paragraph" is a subjective opinion, is factually incorrect, and provides no value other than to downgrade the subject of this article's value. Please explain why it should be included.
 * The "largest in the area" portion is mentioned on the University's own site, and I don't think is in dispute. Regarding the relative prestige of the Schools in St. Louis:


 * 1) It is not a subjective opinion.  The statement is "most in the area consider it less prestigious than some of the areas smaller, private universities such as...".  This is not an opinion, it is a statement about the opinion of others.
 * 2) It is not factually incorrect.  All three of the private universities are consistiently rated higher than UM-St. Louis.  For example, on the US News ranking of America's Best Colleges 2005 Washington University is ranked #11 nationally, St. Louis University is ranked #81 nationally, Webster is ranked #25 for Midwest masters programs and UM-St. Louis was classified as fourth tier.  I don't have specific evidence regarding the local opinion compared to national rankings, so if you would prefer the article be edited to read "it is generally considred less prestigious...", then please do so.
 * 3) The paragraph does provide useful information to those reading the article.  The relative ranking of UM-St. Louis with regard to other local schools may be common knowledge to most in St. Louis, but is probably not as generally known outside the area.  Also, it hightlights the fact that the Univeristy of Missouri - St. Louis and St. Louis University are not the same institution, which may confuse some people not familiar with either institution.  (Similar to confusion that Washington University sometimes has with the University of Washington).
 * 4) The purpose of Wikipedia is not to provide the University (or anyone else) with a free marketing site.  It is to provide balanced, neutral encyclopedic information.  The fact that the paragraph detracts from UM-St. Louis may upset you, but does provide balance to an article otherwise filled with text that sounds like it was lifted directly from the university's marketing. Kenj0418 04:00, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for responding, I hope that we can easily clarify our differences:

The original statement read as follows:

''“Established in 1963, it is the youngest of the four campuses of the University of Missouri System. The three other branches consist of the main campus in Columbia, as well as campuses in Rolla and Kansas City.”''

UM-Kansas City, UM-Rolla, and UM-St. Louis are not adjuncts of UM-Columbia, and UM-Columbia is not a “main” campus. All four campuses have the same standing in the University of Missouri system. This is not a "legal technicality". When deleting that incorrect information I added clarification with the “of equal standing” statement… I fail to see how that is biased or how it “adds nothing of value” to the article given that it is both true and addresses incorrect information in the previous version.
 * I agree that the use of the word 'main' in the version you quoted is incorrect. 'Oldest', 'original', 'largest', and numerous other adjectives would have been better there.  However, the "of equal standing", without additional qualification gives a false impression.

Further, where the University System’s offices are located, the campus age, or the fact that some of them are “comuter schools” does not change this. If I wrote that UM-St. Louis was of equal stature, history, or about the size of their athletic departments, then I would agree that such statements would not reflect reality… but I did not.
 * Webster's define standing (relevant definition): "a) length of service or experience especially as determining rank, pay, or privilege b) position or condition in society or in a profession; especially : good reputation c : position relative to a standard of achievement or to achievements of competitors"
 * So "of equal standing" isn't correct either. Since the campuses are clearly not of equal in the regards described above.

As for the “comparison paragraph,” here is the original statement:

“It coexists in the St. Louis metropolitan area with two more prestigious private universities: Washington University and Jesuit-run Saint Louis University.”

This indincates that the school should be defined by how it relates to these two other universities. Such a defention would be to narrow because those three schools are not the only ones in the area and irrelavent because UM-St. Louis is a national university. It is potentially derogatory to other institutions in the area by their obmission. The prestigue factor is to subjective to define.

It was reinserted and motified to this:

''“UM-St. Louis is the largest university in the St. Louis Area, but most in the area consider it less prestigious than some of the areas smaller, private universities such as Washington University, Saint Louis University and Webster University.”''

The revision essentially has the same problem. By tacking on “most in the area consider” or “it is generally considered” doesn’t really change the fact that this is a subjective opinion… it is really just splitting hairs.
 * It is not splitting hairs, it is an important distinction. See NPOV.  Stating that some (or many) hold a particular opinion, and stating that opinion are different.  That said, I agree with you that this paragraph is problematic.  I have removed it.

Webster University’s stature versus UM-St. Louis is certainly not established in fact, the regional ranking (which is an entirely different category in US News) for certain programs not withstanding.
 * Agreed

A balanced statement about how all of the schools in the St. Louis area compare would have to be considerably longer, and really should exist as a separate encyclopedia entry, if at all. UM-St. Louis, and every other school in the area, should not be defined as per its relative value simply in St. Louis.

Addressing that UM-St. Louis and St. Louis University are indeed separate institutions isn’t a bad idea, however if that is the purpose of the paragraph it probably should speak directly to it.
 * I have added a paragraph for this purpose.

Finally, I do understand what both Wikipedia and an encyclopedia are. All of what I added are of my own words and were not taken from a “marketing” department. Trying to characterize my emotions or my motives doesn’t help this discussion. None of what is included in the article’s first three paragraphs should have to be balanced by other information unless you specifically believe that it indicates an attempt to over amplify its positives… which I do not believe that it does.
 * It was not my intent to characterize your emotions or motives. I was attempting to characterize the content you added.  I did not intend to offend, or to imply any particular motive on your part.

The four campuses are not competitors, they are complementary, and exist to provide a breadth of academic services for different demands throughout the state. They contain an equal rank within the university system and all have a good reputation.

As for one campuses position in society, there are to many variables to make such an easy proclamation. While a degree program from Mizzou might be considered greater overall, in engineering it could be more prestigious from Rolla, and more prestigious in criminology earned through UMSL. UMKC and UMSL certainly serve more diverse student populations and Columbia has the prominent Division I athletic programs. I could go on and on...

Qualitative judgments on which campus is “gooder” or the “greatest of equals” not withstanding, when defining the four campuses standing within the university system I still don’t agree that the equal standing statement is “clearly not” the case or “not reflective of reality.”

However, in the spirit of compromise on our other issue, I’m fine with the article as it now stands. The intent of the lines inclusion was to counter the incorrect "main campus" information which, with its deletion, is not really necessary now anyways.

Thank you for the discussion, and good job on the text box.

UM System seal
I need someone who graduated from UMSL (i.e., knows what the diploma looks like) to answer this: is the UM System seal on the outside cover or on the diploma itself? Any other logos? Is the UM System seal used anywhere on campus at all? Could UMSL students even identify it? Just wondering and trying to decide what to do with the infobox. Thanks.—Lazytiger 19:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Merging The Current (newspaper) in to UMSL Entry
Against merge. Though the entry for The Current could easily be expanded, the precedent for campus newspapers appears to be to leave them separate (e.g., Daily Bruin and Daily Trojan). - Quartermaster 16:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Against merge. I agree. In addition to the national precedent, other Missouri student newspapers are also separate: Student Life and The Maneater. Kirkman 02:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

What next? Since no one has spoken in favor of a merge, can we reject the proposition? How do we move forward? Kirkman 06:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Judging from other university student newspaper WP articles, this one seems important enough to be notable in its own right and shouldn't be merged. If you want to reject the proposition, remove the tags. DGG 04:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, I went ahead and removed the tags. Kirkman 05:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

location
I'm working with a reference librarian at Thomas Jefferson Library to confirm the actual city/township location but it's not Saint Louis. The campus is miles from St. Louis City and maintains their own accredited police force. It might be considered Saint Louis County unincorporated but I have seen Normandy claim it. Monday I will contact Normandy City Hall. Alatari (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

UMSL lies at least partly in Normandy by virtue of expansion (for example, they own Normandy Hospital). But they also have land in Bel-Nor (the Alumni Center and other land along Natural Bridge Rd.), unincorporated St. Louis County (in "Carsonville" off Hanley Rd), and maybe other municipalities. Would it be enough to identify the campus as being in St. Louis County? Kirkman (talk) 02:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

UMSL is mainly in Normandy however the main reason for UMSL's existence is to serve st louis, hints the name UM-St. Louis. just a thought. Whsbrain (talk) 03:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It serves St. Louis City and County. I was just trying to be thorough since UMSL obviously doesn't sit in St. Louis at all. Alatari (talk) 14:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Student Government Association
Why was the student government association deleated? if you go to other schools such as University of Missouri-Columbia their student government has their own page. I am confused about this. Whsbrain (talk) 03:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * All unsourced non-notable articles eventually get deleted. Paddy Simcox (talk) 17:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

pictures
could someone help up upload some pictures. I am confused how to upload them so they wont be deleaded. I want to add some pictures of sports going on at umsl and also some buildings on campus, any help would be great thanks!Whsbrain (talk) 19:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If someone uploads a picture to Flikr.com and you like it then e-mail them asking for permission. See this question I asked of Anonemouse.  Alatari (talk) 22:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I propose a merger of UMSL Student Government Association into this article. The UMSL Student Government Association article suffers from WP:Original Research and is generally fails WP:Notability.--RedShiftPA (talk) 01:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

space around en dash
I've deleted the space around the en dash added by QwertzAltShift because it's not needed. No, space isn't wrong, but it's breaking the uniformity that was established for the article names of the four UM campuses. Granted, this uniformity has become less visible or even relevant because the University of Missouri–Rolla changed its name and the University of Missouri–Columbia dropped the Columbia. Regardless, these article names and categories on Wikipedia have already been established, and by introducing spaces around the dash it simply complicates where the articles are actually located.

But, you say, UMSL itself has spaces around the "dash" on its website. I wouldn't try too hard to mimic the website designers' lack of attention to detail. Hell, they're not even using a dash—it's a hyphen, which is clearly the wrong punctuation. There were discussions about this (see hyphen vs. en dash and space or no space) a couple years ago about the punctuation of the school names; I don't see any reason to rehash the decision.—Lazytiger (Talk | contribs) 01:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal: Pierre Laclede Honors College to University of Missouri–St. Louis
PLCH is not independently notable, and has been tagged as such for six and a half years. However, it could be a useful section of this article. Boleyn (talk) 13:54, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:University of Missouri seal bw.svg
The image Image:University of Missouri seal bw.svg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --02:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Crime rate
Can anyone provide detail or substantiation for "The crime rate on the UMSL campus is among the lowest in the United States." ? Kenj0418 16:03, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)