Talk:University of North Texas/Archive 1

North(ern) Texas?
Removed this: The University of North[sic] Texas (North Texas is not a state. It should be Northern Texas.) Hmm, someone's idea of pedantry, I suppose... -- Oliver P. 14:52 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Good call, Oliver! I suppose the pedantrist is not aware that North Texas could easily become its own political subdivision should Texas divide into multiple states -- which I believe is a provision of our constitution. Also, saying "North" instead of "Northern" reflects not only the popular usage of the term (hence "West Texas," "East Texas," etc.) but our heritage as a formerly independent and sovereign nation, the Republic of Texas. 64.221.15.66 (talk) 15:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

College Descriptions
Why have most of the College descriptions been removed? What criteria are being used to decide which College descriptions to keep and which to remove? Rylan42 18:07, 28 November 2005 (UTC) College descriptions were removed because they were simply laundry lists of the degrees offered and provided no information that couldn't be found at the University website. Most of the colleges are not notable. UNT is really only known for a few things academically: the music school/jazz program and TAMS. There is no need for any extended mention of any of the other schools. The college of music retains a description because it is notable as the first to confer a jazz studies degree and maintain its prestige in the field. TAMS has its own article, clearly making it notable enough. Please do not make these changes again until we have discussed on the talk page.-Scm83x 20:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with Scm83x above in that we do not need to see that annoying long list of all of UNT's offered degrees. On Wikipedia it is basically useless. Maybe listing some of majors would be OK, but not that list. However, I disagree with Scm83x on the school descriptions. Who is arbitrairily to say what schools and programs are notable or prestigious enough to deserve an extended mention? I'm sure the students and faculty of UNT think their programs are worth a sentence or two. I think a short description of any of UNT's other departments without the "laundry lists of degrees" would be appropriate.--Wikiphilia 01:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)  18:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

What then is the justification in keeping the Honors College? Rylan42 18:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC) The College of Engineering is probably worthy of being added back. It is a new college, but it is already bringing a fair amount of notice to the University. It is also located on a separate campus (about 10 or so miles north of the main campus), and that campus already has a separate wikipedia article (though very short and perhaps not fully worthy of being a separate article). Rylan42 19:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure about the importance of the Honors College since I don't attend UNT, but I thought that the listing of all of the college descriptions was a little excessive. We can eliminate it.  The engineering information is fine ot be added back.  It looks like the program is making waves, very good. -Scm83x 05:06, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sure some of the people in the Honors College would disagree and want it added back, but I don't know a whole lot about it. I think students there are actually in two colleges: Honors and whereever their major is. It's the newest College at UNT (just started this semester, actually), and so I don't know much about how it works as a College. Maybe someone more familiar with it will come by. In the mean time, perhaps we should list it somewhere on the page with-out a description. I'd add it into the list above the descriptions, but I don't know if they actually "confer degrees". Rylan42 16:18, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks. I forgot to add it back to the list of colleges.  I'll go ahead and do that. Thanks for keeping me honest. -Scm83x 16:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Image speeeeling erorr
The image for the infobox spells "discover" as "dicsover". I am changing out the image until someone fixes it. -Scm83x 05:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Nice catch.
 * I fixed this with some quick editing, and re-uploaded it as a PNG called Unt_wikilogo.png. However, I think I kind of like the image that's currently in the article better, so I'll leave it to someone else to change it if they feel it is appropriate.
 * On a related note, how do you make a link to an image on Wikipedia without inlining it?

Thanks, Aaron. It seems that the previous image was created by someone net-savvy in the advertising department at UNT. I'm not sure if the image is an attempt to advertise on the Wiki. We will have to see what happens now that we have removed the image from the page. To link to an image without having the image show up, do this Image:Unt_wikilogo.png which appears as Image:Unt_wikilogo.png. That took me a while to figure out when I first got here!! Glad I could help. -Scm83x 05:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm... the new image is no longer used by UNT; they adopted a new "brand" in the last few months. I won't have a chance for awhile to do any editing, but if someone wants to work on it, the official logos/wordmarks are at www.unt.edu/branding. Rylan42 16:11, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I started to try to change some things in the info box, but I am running into problems. Where can I find a brief explaination for how the info boxes work? I notice that the labels that show up are different from what is in the code. How is this working? Sorry for the newbie questions. Rylan42 17:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about asking "newbie questions"; we're all here to help. Infoboxes can be comfusing.  The one used on this page is Template:Infobox University2.  See that page and also the coding at The University of Texas at Austin, which uses the same infobox, to see another example of how it works.  The reasons why the labels are different is just because of the way the box works.  The label doesn't have to be the same as the bracketed phrase. For example, the Location label has three components, , and  .  Hope this helps, but if you have anymore questions, drop me a line at my user talk page.  Thanks! -Scm83x 17:35, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that we should be using the UNT seal as opposed to the "branding" logo; it looks like the seals are used on other university pages, such as the University of Texas at Austin and Texas Tech University. At the very least, "Discover the power of ideas" shouldn't be listed as the school motto - it's an advertising tagline that did not exist prior to the "rebranding". UNT doesn't seem to have a motto. -Hedgey42 22:19, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Alumni questions
I've re-added George Dunham to the alumni list (and added his radio sidekick, Craig Miller). The immediate sources I found for these are articles from the alumni magazine (here and here) listing them as class of '88; I also recall seeing them mentioned several times as alumni in the North Texas Daily. As for Russ Martin... only quick source I could find was a Worth Star-Telegram'' article on his Web site that casually mentions that he "did a semester" at UNT. Doesn't seem to be enough to warrant listing as a former student... -Hedgey42 22:19, 18 December 2005 (UTC) None of these three are encyclopedic at all- they are strictly local radio "personalities".

I've added reference to jazz alumni Billy Harper, May 14, 2012. This is my first edit. I will in a day or two check styles and responses. Lardunn (talk) 00:10, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem with adding Harper, but remember you need an external reference, not another Wikipedia article. Replaced your ref with an external one.  Runfellow (talk) 03:43, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Traditions and the tower
I've done some work on this section, as most of it was apparently taken verbatim from a list appearing in various places on the UNT Web site (for example, here and here).

And for the record, the McConnell Tower is lit with green for every win; it sits atop the Hurley Administration Building (renamed in 2002). It's sort of like the distinction between Big Ben and the Houses of Parliament. -Hedgey42 08:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

FLAGSHIP Institution??? come on now....
since when has UNT been a flagship instituition, its rated as a fourth tier university, someone is seriously a bit biased
 * "Flagship" refers to the "important or leading member of a group"; UNT is the major institution in the University of North Texas System, as is stated in the article. It serves the same function in its system as UT Austin, Texas Tech and University of Houston do in theirs. It has nothing to do with rankings, U.S. News & World Report's or otherwise. - Hedgey42 20:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, "flagship" is a term used by the state of Texas to refer to two schools: University of Texas at Austin and Texas A&M University. It is not a term used just to designate the biggest or central campus in a set of campuses. I have removed this term from the infoboxes of UNT, UofH, and Texas Tech. Johntex\talk 17:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * my previous comment is moved below --Ntmg05 23:22, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

But this is not a wiki just about Texas and how it refers to things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/71.96.230.149 (talk)
 * True, but words have meaning and it is not our place to give them new definitions. Part of building an informative work is to use terms in their correct usage.  To do otherwise is to violate our policy on WP:OR. Johntex\talk 15:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The term "flagship university" is being confused here with the term "Tier 1 University", which now consists of UT, A&M, and UH in Texas. "Flagship" simply means it is the original university in a system, which UNT-Denton is to the UNT system.AndLibertyForAll (talk) 02:20, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Flagship state university, part 2
Although I didn't make the edit, I want to go on record as supporting the use of the term "flagship" in the UNT info box. To restate the argument, there are two definitions of flagship. The first definition is a designation within a university system denoting which campus is the largest or most important. This is completely within the discretion of the system and impossible to refute... they either call it their flagship or they don't.  UNT does here. The second definition is less concrete, but generally applies to any university that expends more than $100 million per year on research and has a strong academic reputation. UNT is clearly the flagship of the UNT system as noted, and it probably is not a flagship in the other sense of the word (the academic reputation is irrelevant since UNT doesn't appear to spend more than $100 million per year on research). Until a standard is agreed upon denoting which version of "flagship" is to be used in the Infobox section on all university pages, I think it should be included. Additional comments are welcome. --Ntmg05 18:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the word as used by UNT is boosterism. It would be like adding the phrase "University of the finest class", which UT administration sometimes use with respect to that school.  The terminology in the infobox should be consistent statewide, and use of the word "flagship" should be limited to institutions that are designated "flagship" by the state of Texas, namely: UT and A&M. Johntex\talk 02:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "Flagship" has two concrete, meaningful definitions. "University of the finest class" is vague and undefined.  The former is simply a designation (and factual), the latter is boosterism (and objective). --Ntmg05 11:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I should add that I think it would be entirely appropriate to state within the article that the administartion has referred to UNT as the flagship of the system. Johntex\talk 02:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Please provide evidence stating Wikipedia's standard regarding use of the word "flagship," namely which definition is appropriate for the Info Box. Thank you. --Ntmg05 11:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to imply that we have a project-wide standard. This has come up a few times with respect to a few schools and the general sense of the commentary has been to limit the use of the term to UT and A&M.  Perhaps we should centralize this discussion at Talk:Texas instead of having multiple discussions occurring on multiple pages? Johntex\talk 16:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that the use of "flagship" in infoboxes needs to be standardized. I'd advocate discussing at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Texas. Cheers, Lbbzman 16:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Liberal arts college?
Is UNT a liberal arts college? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.5 (talk)
 * No, it covers science, engineering and other areas also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.100.5 (talk)

Boomer the cannon
Is such an extensive history needed? Perhaps it should have its own entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.212.10 (talk)
 * I agree, it's excessive. 71.244.44.192 00:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur. --Ntmg05 01:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's ridiculous. EVERY college team I've seen play football fires a damn cannon.64.221.15.66 (talk) 15:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Name
Why do some people call it "North Texas State University"? Badagnani 06:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Because from 1961 to 1988, that's what it was called. Many of us who attended during that period (I graduated in 1966), still think of it as, and often refer to it as "NTSU". --Michael K. Smith 02:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you; can this be added to the article for maximum clarity? Badagnani 03:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Oh, I see that it is indeed mentioned. I don't know how I missed that. Badagnani 03:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

D.M. Smith taught at a "Fort Worth University"; is that University of North Texas, or is that a different school? —Disavian (talk/contribs) 04:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There's no such place. The D.M. Smith article should probably read "a Fort Worth University"... I'm guessing the current Texas Christian University?  I don't know if it had a different name at the time but that is the only university in Fort Worth. --NetherlandishYankee 13:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Was there in the past? Relevant quote from a book: "Dr. Smith received his B.A. from Vanderbilt University in 1905 and his M.A. in 1906. He taught mathematics first at Centenary College in Louisiana and then at Fort Worth University in Texas. He returned to his studies and received his doctorate from Chicago University in 1913." —Disavian (talk/contribs) 15:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I know I'm really late in the discussion, but apparently there WAS a university named "Fort Worth University". According to the Handbook of Texas, Fort Worth University merged with "Methodist Episcopal University at Oklahoma City" in 1911.  A bit of web searching uncovers some interesting history.  Prior to September of 1911, there was a Methodist school called "Epworth University" in Oklahoma City, but apparently this university moved to Guthrie, Oklahoma, in Oklahoma's old territorial capitol building.  This was when the merger with Fort Worth University happened (they were another Methodist school by the way), and the school became known as the "Methodist University of Oklahoma".  The school then changed their name to "Oklahoma City College" and moved back to Oklahoma City in 1919.  In 1924, the school renamed themselves yet again to its current name, Oklahoma City University.  It's to my understanding that the source for the Handbook of Texas in their article is an old newspaper clipping from 1911, and since this was probably when the school was still in its preliminary stages, it makes sense for the article to have a different name (maybe just a working name).  So there you have it.  Fort Worth University is technically now Oklahoma City University.  I got this info from the Oklahoma Historical Society's website here.  This is pretty interesting stuff to me so, I may make an article out of it, and history section for Oklahoma City University's article. Brianreading (talk) 07:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject University of North Texas
I have started a WikiProject for UNT. I was hoping everyone can spread the word and add This profile template to their personal pages!
 * Thank you! 64.221.15.66 (talk) 01:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How did you start a WikiProject? and make a template? I have been trying to do it for a long time, but couldnt figure it out :/--147.26.208.127 (talk) 07:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Endowment
I have updated the endowment figyre for 2009 fiscal year. According to a Dallas newspaper, UNT was one of the hardest hit schools with the economic downturn in 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.145.176.45 (talk) 15:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Numerous Issues
The history section is simply a small segment about the history of the name of the university and uses only one source. UNT has quite a bit more history than that, and while not everything needs to be covered, it makes sense to get at least some modern history.

The "Academics" section should contain academically pertinent information related to the school as a whole. Three straight paragraphs begin with "The college of business..." or something similar. The college has it's own page here: [] That information needs to be moved there.

The "Greek Life" section of "Student Life" is absurd. The point of Wikipedia is not to provide links to your frat's page in a laundry list of links. Basic information on the number of students involved in Greek life at UNT (a tiny minority) and a number of organizations is perfectly fine. If someone wants to create a separate page with all of those links, that's fine, but they're going out eventually. AndLibertyForAll (talk) 15:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Residence Halls
I've already edited the residence halls section, but I'm thinking it's still pretty much superfluous information and may be plagiarism anyway. If no one has any objections in the next few days, I'm going to turn it into plain list. AndLibertyForAll (talk) 21:16, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

More stuff
http://www.unt.edu/untmasterplan/documents/Final_Master_Plan.pdf WhisperToMe (talk) 06:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Image deletion discussion
Relevant deletion discussion at .--GrapedApe (talk) 18:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

This article is a complete disaster
I'd like to completely start over, but I have a feeling that would be frowned upon. Not only does it not even come close to following WP:UNI/AG, it barely qualifies as an article. You'd think from looking at the references that this school wasn't even noteworthy. There are so many issues here that it's hard to know where to begin: At this point, the page is more of an embarrassment than it is an encyclopedia article. In the next few weeks I'm going to try to salvage this thing section by section, but it will most likely involve cutting a lot of this junk out before I can add well-referenced information back in. So don't freak out. Runfellow (talk) 22:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There are random bolded lines meant to be headings. Really? Is it that difficult to learn "===" ?
 * Almost every random factoid occupies its own line.
 * The order of sections, if you can call them that, doesn't follow any sort of pattern of logic.
 * Despite the fact that "Athletics" has it's own section, "Intercollegiate athletics" is listed as an academic highlight.
 * The article includes the entire fight song and Alma Mater. I'm pretty sure those are trademarked by the university, but even if they aren't, they don't belong here.
 * The "notable people" section is just a bunch of wikilinks and doesn't serve any real purpose.
 * The "Academics" section uses indented text... why? And why separate it out? It's like someone understood wiki markup, but had never actually seen an article before they did all this stuff.
 * There's no need for a list of residence halls, and there's certainly no need for a list of the "REAL Communities" programs.
 * The entire "Traditions" section uses only one source... you guessed it, the UNT Traditions page.
 * I'm cheering you on. Suggestion:  Rather than starting over, simply chop and edit.  My sense is that some editors have tried too hard to develop the student life and spirit aspects.  I am not suggesting that those topics aren't important.  But, those sections are out of proportion (and poorly written).  If it were up to me, I would focus on academic structure.  For example, Greek organizations and dormitories might be interesting; but, they are not in the top 10 or 20 salient points that relate any university's mandate.  Intercollegiate athletics at North Texas is important, but there's plenty of room the stretch-out under another entry.  The North Texas Mean Green section can be improved, too.  Frankly, I'm surprised at how many prestigious universities have terrible write-ups. Eurodog (talk) 00:02, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like NThomas is making an honest effort to fix some of the wiki markup issues, so kudos to him. I'm going to start making some notes; I'll put them in a sandbox subpage–User:Runfellow/sandbox/UNT–but there's nothing there to speak of right now. Runfellow (talk) 15:14, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Flagship
UNT is the "flagship" campus of a system so thus is a "flagship" state university. Stop reverting it, your claims that it is not are unsound and clearly biased against the university. 11:11, 10 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.185.200.199 (talk)


 * You need a source. Thanks.  JohnInDC (talk) 16:21, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Looks like this has come up again with recent edits. See Flagship. While UNT could be mentioned in the lead as the "flagship university of the University of North Texas System" (like University of Houston), it isn't a "flagship" university of a broader state university system (which can include multiple university systems, such as the four that exist in Texas) in the sense that schools like UT-Austin, Penn State, University of Florida, etc. are flagship institutions of their respective state, not just the main campus of their respective individual university system. Most third-party sources list the flagship for Texas as UT-Austin with some also including Texas A&M. Any designation for UNT as a "flagship" beyond the qualifier of it being of the UNT system would need a third-party source. Personally, I prefer "main campus" over "flagship" for the largest/oldest campus within an individual university system like UNT to avoid confusion. --JonRidinger (talk) 13:21, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

History/Presidents
To borrow from another Talk Page section, the History section is a complete disaster (OK, perhaps a bit hyperbolic). Is it history or is it a list of presidents of the university? And what's with the formatting? Make no mistake, both are necessary to the article (moreso the history), but they shouldn't be in the same section, or, at least, formatted like that. Paris1127 (talk) 07:41, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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How is it not notable that the school employs a proven liar as its Dean of Journalism?
I take strong issue with this revert.

Journalism is about truth.

The fact that the School of Journalism continues to employ a dean who falsely accused a police officer of racial profiling is highly notable.

The police dashcam proved that her accusation against the police officer was false.

And the police chief said the police in the video handled the situation so well that she would start using the video to train police about the importance of using their dashcams.

This received international media attention.

It should be put back in the article.

What do others here think?

Here is the relevant content:

In October 2015, Dorothy Bland, the dean of the Frank W. and Sue Mayborn School of Journalism and the director for the Frank W. Mayborn Graduate Institute of Journalism at the University of North Texas, wrote a column for the Dallas Morning News where she falsely claimed that she had been racially profiled by police. However, a dashcam recording proved that the police stopped her because she had been walking in the street, in the same direction of traffic, and blocking traffic, all while wearing earbuds, even though there were sidewalks on both sides of the street. The police expressed concern for her safety. Since blocking traffic is a misdemeanor, they asked for her ID. Since she was wearing a hoodie, long sleeves, and long pants, and the police approached her from behind, the police could not have known her race before they stopped her. Corinth Police Chief Debra Walthall said the police in the video handled the situation so well that she would start using the video to train police about the importance of using their dashcams. Bland's false accusation and the dashcam recording which proved the police officers' innocence received international media attention.

Ragssigns (talk) 23:08, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Have any credible sources specifically raised this issue? If this is notable, I'd expect to see in sources that are highly credible in this area e.g., Inside Higher Ed, Chronicle of Higher Education, journalism-specific publications. ElKevbo (talk) 00:45, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, there are credible sources that have raised this issue. The content that was removed cited the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, the Dallas Morning News, the Sydney Morning Herald, and the Daily News. Ragssigns (talk) 09:42, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Since the only objection was the mistaken belief that there were no reliable sources, I have put the content back in. Furthermore, it is highly notable that a school of journalism employs a dean who had been proven to have made such a huge lie that it would have ruined an innocent police officer's career if it hadn't been for the dashcam recording. Ragssigns (talk) 09:51, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I apologize; I may not have been as clear as I should have been in my original objection.
 * Have any credible sources specifically raised the issue that this incident is directly related to this university or this person's position at the university? If so, I'd expect to see it in sources that are highly credible in this area e.g., Inside Higher Ed, Chronicle of Higher Education, journalism-specific publications. ElKevbo (talk) 13:36, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Updating facts
Hello, I work for UNT (also am new to Wikipedia), and understand that this gives me a conflict of interest for this article. Is it acceptable for me to change just facts that need updating, such as enrollment figures, number of schools/colleges, things like that? Or do I need to request someone else make these? Thank you for your help.--Gmg2019 (talk) 18:44, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for asking! We do have guidelines and policies related to paid editing and conflicts of interest so it may be helpful to review them.
 * In general, editors seem to be okay with COI editors making very clear, uncontroversial edits e.g., updating numbers already included in the article. However, it's always safest to just make suggestions and requests here in Talk especially as some editors may have different opinions about what is uncontroversial.  If you make a suggestion or request and it doesn't get any attention, this is another place where you could drop a line to possibly get another editor to weigh in. ElKevbo (talk) 20:13, 1 November 2019 (UTC)