Talk:University of Notre Dame/Archive 2

"Fightin' Irish" nickname
Why two full paragraphs on the nickname? The stereotype for decades was that Irish people get drunk and fight. ND turned the derision into a mascot like "Yankee Doodle." Where's the mystery? --Tysto 15:22, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Wrong: The nickname originated when the KKK came to South Bend for an annual meeting and Notre Dame students sent them running...

Top of the page
The appearance of the top of the page is decidedly ugly and very un-Notre Dame like. I am thinking of heading it with a photo instead of the rival University box on the right and contents box on the left. Anything would help, at this point. Let me know if you have any ideas. --Vaquero100 15:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Princeton Review
I find it interesting that when i listed the Princeton Review ranking of ND has the second most homophobic school in the country, It gets removed. But then someone added from the same survey that it is a "dream school". Is this a encyclopedia or a brochure?--Bud 05:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Slumbering Echoes
Former sentences were: However, recent historical study has shown that the Potawatomi Indians, partly due to the strong faith of Leopold Pokagon, played an integral role in the founding of Notre Dame both before and during Sorin's presence in Northern Indiana. However, the Native American role in the founding of the school has been long forgotten, largely due to Sorin's questionable, and perhaps dishonest, dealings with the Potawatomi.

I've removed the NPOV, but a larger question remains, does this book/paper actually exist. I find no (non Wikipedia) reference to it via google: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Slumbering+Echoes%22+Potawatomi+Indians&num=100&hl=en&lr=&filter=0 There is a ND student named Peter Langer who works in the Dining Hall, but that appears to be the only Langer affiliated with the school http://apps.nd.edu/webdirectory/directory.cfm?cn=langer&submit3=Search
 * There has been no response on the authenticity of the work, so I removed the reference and sentence. -- KelleyCook 16:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

According to Peter Lysy (plysy@nd.edu) and W. Kevin Cawley (wcawley@nd.edu) from the ND Archives, this paper does exist. Thus, I believe that it should be included.

Intramural Football
The article states that Notre Dame is the only school besides the US service academies to offer full-pad, full-contact intramural football. Brigham Young University-Idaho (a sister school of BYU) in Rexburg, Idaho also offers full-pad and full-contact intramural football. --JonRidinger 23:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Where the hell's that gold?
Anybody know the name of the UND Leprechaun? Trekphiler 09:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

We just go ahead and call him by his real name - Kyle last year, Kevin this year... the mascot doesn't really have a "name," per se, besides "The Leprechaun." Hope that helps.--Gregoe86 06:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The Princeton Review and "Colleges with Low Acceptance of Gays"
I want to clarify why I replaced this info in the "Reputation" section after it was blanked (by, I think, an anon user). 1) The information is properly cited, 2) it's no more or less relevant than any other Princeton Review ranking, including the other ones in this article "list of student 'dream schools'" (which, incidentally, aren't REF'd). It's a thing some potential students might very well need to consider.

Just wanted to put something on the talkpage so disagreement (if there is any) happens here, and not in the form of an edit war in the article. Thanks. Ford MF 21:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And yet it is completely irrelevant trivia from a survey that is completely unimportant to this page. Go create a Low Acceptance of Gays page if you wish.  Reverted for about the 5th time. -- KelleyCook 18:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

All info gathered by the Princeton Review is by student survey. Frankly if any Princeton Review info is used (here or on any other of the zillion college articles it is used on), there's no reason any other kind of Princeton Review ranking should be excluded. I'm not sure what your argument for irrelevance is here (largely because you haven't made one?) I'm fairly sure that to prospective gay students, it's rather relevant. Ford MF 20:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently that title is one that the article gave the list though. Let me dig up the actual one the Princeton Review used.  Ford MF 20:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The most current title for that Princeton review survey is "Alternative Lifestyles Not an Alternative" ( http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/rankings/rankingCategory.asp?categoryID=2 ). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Primadog (talk • contribs) 10:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Notre Dame's ranking regarding it being an unaccepting of homosexuals is an important piece of information for student looking to attend a given university it is ultra relevant and thus should be included. TolaTola

I moved it from "reputation" to a new section with some other facts that had been somewhat erroneously thrown in the reputation section.Bolt Vanderhuge 09:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Access to sexual information
"Notre Dame was ranked tied for last in terms of the amount of access to sexual information it provides its students"

Is this section necessary? It comes with a link to the Trojan website and I think it is vandalism. DandyDan2007 09:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It links to an article on the Trojan website that makes that claim. I don't think it's intended as vandalism, just as a statement of fact. (It would be better if the sentence mentioned Trojan).  Also, I can't see why the information about Princeton reviews "alternative live is not an alternative" ranking was reverted:    *Mishatx* -  In \ Out   22:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Just because a statement has a link to a random commercial website, does not make it relevant. -- KelleyCook 03:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I put in the comments about Notre Dame and the Trojan condom stuff, and it is deleted every time i put it in, i have not clue why, it is very relavent Tolatola 03:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Tolatola, Here is your list of contributions for Wikipedia Special:Contributions/Tolatola. Note that you have made one contribution to how wonderful Providence College is and 15 of the pretty much the same edit to the Notre Dame page.  Please stop making it.
 * As you are new, I will suggest that you review the following of what Wikipedia is and what it is WP:NOT. It is NOT a debate forum.  It is not a soapbox.  It is not Furthermore your fact is WP:TRIVIA.  It is from a non WP:NOTEable source as it is from an internet poll taking through the Princeton Review is not considered a reliable source.  Clearly a trivia from Trojans condoms website is not an academic source. And finally the "legacy" edit you wrote has violated WP:NPOV.  This is encyclopedia article about a major university, it is not something to screw around with and put peoples opinions about.  People who wish to learn about a University should not care about trivial matters, they can go to the Princeton Review site for that. -- KelleyCook 20:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The world of Higher Education is unique in that colleges and universities are often ranked and rated, many sites reference US News and World Report, as well as the Princeton Review. I am very willing to have a discussion about this it is interesting that KelleyCook only deletes negative links from the Princeton Review, but does not delete the positive ones, be consistent.-- Tolatola 02:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You guys should try to have a discussion on this. Tolatola, see if you can find links that aren't directly from commercial websites, I can agree that Trojan and the Princeton Review are not ideal direct sources. KelleyCook, your edit summaries gave me the impression that you were only removing this information because it could be construed as a negative toward the school. Remember that "Notre dame hates homosexuals and condoms" is biased, but "According to study X by group Y, Notre Dame is non supportive of homosexuals and denies access to birth control" is NPOV. *Mishatx* - In \ Out   06:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Image of Touchdown Jesus from in stadium
Does anyone have a suitable image of Touchdown Jesus from within the stadium that we could place in Notre Dame Stadium? --ZimZalaBim (talk) 15:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Article Length
The University of Notre Dame is among the most prestigious schools in the country. Doesn't it deserve a more thorough article? Let's go Wiki people! GregaR89 23:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, what a helpful comment. Why not try and contribute yourself? --MrCalifornia 16:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"God Quad" moniker
The name of the main quad in front of the main building is not the "God Quad." That is an informal designation and doesn't belong as the heading of an image in an encyclopedia. 129.74.86.52 19:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Catholicsm
I think it would a worthwhile addition to this article to include some of the links between anti-catholicsm in the United States and Notre Dame. Possibilities include disturbances between the Klu Klux Klan and the student body, how ND was originally kept out of the Big Ten, and mentioning of some theories as to why this might be Notre Dame football became popular nation wide. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.189.5.201 (talk • contribs) 00:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Reputation section
I know this has been discussed before (somewhat), but I don't think that the reputation section as it is should be in the article. It became a place for people to praise the school or disparage it by putting in sourced rankings from random studies. I'm not saying the sources like the Princeton Review are arbitrary, but it seems that people wanting to "praise" Notre Dame find a "good" ranking in one study and people wanting to "attack" (attack is probably too harsh, but I'm sure you get the point) find a "bad" ranking in another. I'm not advocating taking out the reputation section, however it should be re-written in paragraph form. Featured articles such as Cornell University, Duke University, and Michigan State University have "Rankings" sections, however these are used for academic rankings only. I think that the article should be restructured so that the "Academics" section under "Reputation" is moved up the page and written as a paragraph instead of a list (the infobox on the side serves the list's purpose so should probably be moved also). Then perhaps some of the points (or all) under "Other" in the reputation section could be made into a new "Reputation" section with a sub-section on criticisms, but still all being in paragraph form instead of the list it is in right now. I'll try and work on this in the next few days I guess unless anyone has any better ideas. If this doesn't start a debate I'll try and change some things and hopefully then if people disagree we can talk about it here. Phydend 20:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Harry Potter?
The reference to Harry Potter's set designers visiting South Dining Hall seems baseless. South Dining hall is loosely modelled after the gothic dining halls at Oxford and Cambridge. The originals seem to be far truer to the movies set. Unless evidence or a citation can be provided, I think it should be deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.180.165.62 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Dome Yearbook
I would like to add an external link to the old Dome yearbooks-> http://www.e-yearbook.com/nd This is an official university sanctioned website that supports the current student media group. It contains thousands of pages of alumni, athletics, greek life, campus history, etc. Please comment here if you have concerns.
 * This is a subscription website which will probably have little general interest. I would consider a link from Wikipedia to be an ad. --MrCalifornia 22:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The cstv.com is a commercial site (although ad supported). How is this different?
 * CSTV.com is the official site of Notre Dame Athletics which is obviously a huge piece of Notre Dame. Notre Dame affiliates itself with hundreds if not thousands of other services for it's fans and alumni, but that doesn't mean we need a link to every one of them on Wikipedia. --MrCalifornia 00:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that you do not need a link to all things Notre Dame on the Wikipedia ND article. However, this is a unique archive of significant historic value.  This archive contains thousands of portrait pictures of ND alumni, faculty and staff. In addition, the yearbook archive includes sections on student clubs, athletics, greek life, famous speakers, rock bands, honor societies, military groups, student publications, dorm life, academics and many other categories of information.  There is no other publication that captures the institutional memory like these old yearbooks.  I suggest you browse some of these images before making your decision.  Or perhaps talk with some other, older alumni.
 * If this was a free resource I could see it's value, but since it's not it seems more like a free add for your company to me. I notice that most of your contributions to Wikipedia seem to be links to your service on various college's pages. --MrCalifornia 20:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Suspect claim in "student" section
I think you need to have more than personal experience to recommend the removal/editing of this statistic. I could easily weigh in with my own personal experience in argument against your suspicion, if personal experience were considered a valid source. Colliflower13 17:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

"The middle fifty percent of all freshmen students score between a 31 and 34 on the ACT."

This seems highly unlikely to me. It's possible that this is what the university themself says, but I know from personal experience that universities often highly exaggerate these kinds of statistics. (A 32 is at the 99th percentile level.) Grand  master  ka  00:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Catholic vs. Roman Catholic
First of all, the edit warring over whether to describe ND as Catholic or Roman Catholic must stop. Second, I believe the University's Mission Statement provides closure on the issue. While it notes that the focus on the University's "flow from three characteristics of Roman Catholicism" it states much more definitively that "The University of Notre Dame is a Catholic academic community of higher learning" and that "As a Catholic university one of its distinctive goals...". These statements reveal the University does appear to self-identify itself primarily as "Catholic". -- Zim Zala Bim talk  18:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's edit warring. The IP in question just came off of a block for a week for adding false information to a multitude of pages and this has been one of them. Anytime anyone tried to talk on the IP's talk page about it, just kept editing. The mission statement does say, as you quote, that the university flows from the characteristics of Roman Catholicism. I definitely take that to mean it identifies itself as Roman Catholic. Maybe you don't see it that way, however, for the Law School, on its site it states (here) "Founded in 1869, the Notre Dame Law School is the oldest Roman Catholic law school in the United States." That I believe is definitive proof for at least the law school to be changed back. Phydend 23:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. With the amount of nonsense edits being made by the aforementioned IP user and the statement I found on the ND Law school's website, I assumed the changes they were making were further nonsense.  I really don't care what the article says as long as the changes are verifiable. Terryfoster 13:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems we have an odd discrepancy between the main university's mission statement and the law school. Clearly, the University and the Holy Cross priests who run it are members of the Roman Catholic church, but it is add that they seem to consciously remove the "Roman" when referring to themselves in the mission statement. I'm guessing that might be a reflection of the Land O'Lakes statement where American Catholic universities declared independence from papal control in Rome (thus, dropping the "Roman"?). I agree that it doesn't matter all that much which way we describe them, but the duality of verifiable references does complicate things. -- Zim Zala Bim talk  13:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It is weird that there is a discrepancy. I actually don't care what way it is described, I think this time I reverted automatically because of the IP's history of adding false information. I should probably have assumed good faith and started this discussion here first. Anyway, right now the link redirects to "Roman Catholic church" so it's asinine to keep changing it. I'm fine with leaving it for now until we can possibly get a definitive answer. Phydend 14:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see the difference. They are just different names for the same thing, there shouldn't be a big deal made out of it. Banime (talk) 19:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Our Lady?
I've got a problem with: "Notre Dame, meaning "Our Lady" in French,[5] refers to the Virgin Mary. The original and official name of the school is the University of Notre Dame du Lac (Our Lady of the Lake)."--165.12.252.11

What I'm saying is that "Our Lady of the Lake" probably doesn't refer to the virgin Mary at all but to the aquatic damsel of Arthurian legend. When was the Virgin Mary ever associated with a lake?(talk) 06:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)