Talk:University of San Carlos

Request for more information
I would like to insert this. 'It offers programs at the elementary, secondary, college, graduate, and post-graduate levels in various fields such as the arts, humanities, business, law, social sciences, theology, and the pure and applied sciences.' Is this correct? What courses are famous? Does it offer law? medicine? I saw engineering at the web site. Is there a grade school? I am planning to translate this to many languages. Normally I would summarize the article but it is already brief enough. --Jondel 03:00, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

UST or USC as the oldest university in the Philippines

 * This discussion, was transferred from Talk:University of Santo Tomas to Talk:University of San Carlos

Point of clarification, Colegio Seminario de San Carlos was founded in 1783, Colegio de San Ildefonso was founded in 1595 which was closed in 1768, due to the expulsion of the Jesuits in all the Spanish realms. San Ildefonso now defunct, is an institution different from Colegio Seminario de San Carlos. While USC claims that San Ildefonso was later renamed as San Carlos is a debatable claim, there is nothing to rename since San Ildefonso was completely closed in 1768. In 1783 another institution was born that is Colegio Seminario de San Carlos, this is a new institution. Even if, perhaps it used the old buildings left by Colegio de San Ildefonso it cannot lay claim that it was the same institution that was founded in 1595 and closed in 1768. As Fr. Villaroel puts it, if you plant a mango tree in a lot formerly occupied by a guava tree, that does not make a mango tree a guava tree, they still are both distinct entities. Also, the administration and ownership of San Carlos was passed on from the Jesuits to the,Dominicans, Vincentians and at present the Society of the Divine Word. So the correct foundation of USC is 1783 and not 1595 which is San Ildefonso's foundation year.

Another university was founded even much earlier than San Carlos and Santo Tomas and this is Colegio de San Ignacio established in 1589 but was closed in 1768 again due to the expulsion of the Jesuits from the Spanish realms. This institution became a university in 1621, hence much ahead than Santo Tomas, but the said institution was completely closed in 1768, it is now extinct. In a much later time Ateneo was founded in 1859, also a completely distinct institution from San Ignacio. And Ateneo would never claim that San Ignacio is now Ateneo. The jesuits knew very well that Ateneo is a completely distinct entity from San Ignacio. This was also the case of San Ildefonso and San Carlos, they are distinct entities.

In the case of the University of Santo Tomas, it was founded in 1611 has been in continued existence until today. The very same religious order, the order of preachers or OP still administers the University up to the present. The original documents establishing the University in 1611 still exists in the UST archives, even the documents raising the status of Santo Tomas as University in 1645 still exist. I would recommend the article written by Fr. Fidel Villaroel published in the Unitas in 1996 to further clarify this point. from the Philosopher 18 October 2006.


 * Do you have sources that say that San Ildefonso is different and completely distinct from San Carlos? Anyhow, UST says UST is the oldest university, and USC says USC is the oldest school - note that they don't say they're the oldest university. -- Howard  the   Duck  07:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You may wish to refer to history textbooks by Agoncillo, Zaide, and other Filipino authors. All point to the Colegio de San Idelfonso being the San Carlos today. And with that in mind, there is no ontological difference to speak of. San Carlos is clearly the oldest existing. Rmcsamson 12:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Can we add a citation to those books to further clarify the issue? -- Howard  the   Duck  14:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Go right ahead. Rmcsamson 17:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * But I don't have the possession of those books. -- Howard  the   Duck  02:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The first university in the Philippines is the institution that was first granted university status, (does not matter if it still exists or not). On the side with the USC and UST debate, "Colegio Seminario de San Carlos was founded in 1783, Colegio de San Ildefonso was founded in 1595 which was closed in 1768, due to the expulsion of the Jesuits in all the Spanish realms." quoted from Howard. If that is fact, then that solves all issues. :) --Noypi380 03:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There are two questions here:
 * Is the Colegio Seminario de San Carlos = Colegio de San Ildefonso?
 * If Colegio Seminario de San Carlos = Colegio de San Ildefonso, then should school = university.
 * -- Howard  the   Duck  03:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to the research article published by eminent Historian Fidel Villaroel: UST or San Carlos of Cebu? A question of age. Unitas volume 68 no.3 September 1995. pp.103-116.

Let us quote in detail what Villaroel has to say: (excerpts)

The events of 1595: "The case of the University of San Carlos of Cebu is an entirely different story. Different in the sense that its origin have yet to be established on the basis of unquestionable historical documentation. But whatever date may finally be fixed and conventionally accepted as foundation date, it cannot be the year 1595. In that year, the Society of Jesus established a mission in Cebu, traditionally a mission territory of the Augustinian order. The society's foundation consisted of a residence and a church under the advocation of San Ildefonso. It should be noted that most Jesuit residences in the Philippines, as elsewhere, were called "colegios", whether they were educational institutions, houses of formation, centers of apostolate or seats of government and administration for the Society. In fact, the Cebu foundation is often referred to in the history of the Jesuits as the Colegio de San Ildefonso. But that particular colegio was more modest than most Jesuit foundations. Jesuit historian Horacio de la Costa says that in the year 1609 the Society doubted whether San Ildefonso could accept in endownment, "since the establishment at Cebu was hardly a college in the sense used by Saint Ignatius in the Constitutions. No scholastics were being trained there, and the grammar school, which has been started chiefly at the request of Bishop Agurto, (2) was closed down for lack of students just before he died in 1608. Only the primary school for boys remained in operation." (3) pp. 105

The end of San Ildefonso 1768 "So that was it. The Jesuit residence of San Ildefonso did have a primary school attached to it, the educational level of which never reached a higher degree. It was just a little over a parish or mission school. And it remained in that way until 1768 when its existence came to a sad and painful end."

"For in that year, the Society of Jesus was ordered to be suppressed and forbidden in Spain and all Spanish dominions by an act of government, a decree of King Charles III. The Jesuits obediently bowed to th King's command and all of them were deported, leaving the islands on board different galleons. Meanwhile, all their institutions, houses, churches, schools and properties were confiscated by the Government. There was one exception. Only one institution remained in operation, the Colegio de San Jose of Manila. On account of its being an obra pia or pious foundation "distinct from the Society of Jesus, although under the administration and control of the Philippine Jesuit superiors", San Jose was maintained in accordance with the wishes and last will of the founder of the obra pia, and reconstituted as an educational institution, run by the diocesan clergy of Manila. (4) All other Jesuit, institutions, without exception, ceased to exist, never again to rise as they were." pp.106

1783 A Seminary is born

"That year 1768, therefore, was the end of the Colegio de San Ildefonso of Cebu and of the adjoining primary school. And as it disappeared, no institution took over its work and its mission, and none can claim to be its continuator."

"However, its buildings (residence, church and rooms of the school) were not ordered to be demolished. They were left to fall into ruin, and they would certainly collapsed totally but for the intervention of the Bishop of Cebu, Most Rev. Mateo Joaquin Rubio de Arevalo (1775-1791), who requested the Spanish Government to have the premises ceded to him for the establishment there of a diocesan seminary for the formation of candidates to the priesthood. King Charles III granted the request, and steps began to be taken for the foundation of the seminary. Obviously this was to be a new institution that had nothing to do with and was entirely independent of the pre existing institution, now defunct." pp.106-107

"To be more precise, on August 23, 1783, following the grant of the King, the city of Cebu made legal bequest of the building and properties for the foundation. Clearly, the year 1783 must be considered Year One of the existence of San Carlos Seminary, as it was called,..." pp.106-107

"Its beginning were rather inconspicuous and modest and wanting in a well planned organization, as is shown by the fact that it did not have formal statutes until 1828." Records of the Seminary show that in 1848 only 36 seminarians (20 philosophers and 16 theologians) were following the ecclesiastical studies. Certainly no other students were admitted in the seminary than "those who took up subjects meant for clerical life" (Latin and Spanish Grammar, logic, Physics, Metaphysics and Morals) (5)  ...pp.107

Fidel Villaroel concludes: "Concluding this exposition, there have existed in Cebu three different institutions in the same place, namely the Colegio de San Ildefonso, the diocesan seminary of San Carlos and the Colegio de San Carlos ( the latter of the three being today a university)"

"It is the contention of this writer that passing from one institution to the other has not been done by homogeneous growth, and so one does not become the other. You do not call a mango tree an orange tree just because the mango tree has grown in the place where formerly an orange tree was planted, grew and died. There is no homogeneous growth there. The two trees are different in nature. The place is purely accidental."

"If there had been an homogeneous growth in our historical case, then the diocesan Seminary of San Carlos of Cebu would have every reason to celebrate today the 400th year of its foundation. I do not think the Seminary will do it, for it wouldf be tantamount to celebrating its birth 188 years before time, when nobody thought of establishing seminaries in the Philippines, in the very year of the foundation of the diocese of Cebu, that is, 1595."

While hoping to find further documentation, more solid than the journalistic reports, I venture to state the case of San Carlos as follows: "Firstly, there is a clear and visible link going backwards between the present University of San Carlos of Cebu and the Colegio de San carlos recognized by the American Government in 1912. The link continues till the year 1889 when the Spanish Government authorized the Seminary of Cebu to establish a school of Segunda Ensenanza offering studies leading to the degree Bachiller en Artes, though the degree and the diploma were granted by the University of Santo Tomas."

"Secondly, further historical research will be welcome to define the nature of the studies of latinidad, which the Seminary of San carlos started offering to extern students of the same seminary, as a consequence of the episcopal decree of Bishop Romualdo Jimeno dated May 15, 1867"

"Thirdly,earlier than 1867, this writer cannot discover in San Carlos any institution connected with the present University. All he can see is the diocesan seminary called San carlos, founded in 1783 for the training of the diocesan clerygy."

"Hopefully some future historian of San Carlos University, with the aid of original documentation, may arrive at the clarification of the origins of his institution beyond any reasonable doubt"  pp.113-114 (Note this article was written by Fidel Villaroel in 1995) Notes: (based from the excerpts only, more notes in the complete research article)

2 Bishop Argurto,OSA, the first Bishop of Cebu (1595-1608) 3Horacio dela Costa, S.J. The Jesuits in the Philippines, 1581-1768, Cambridge Massachusetts, 1961, p. 277 4 De la Costa, op.cit., pp. 275, 593 5 Resena historica del Seminario-Colegio de San Carlos de Cebu, 1867-1917, Manila 1917, pp. 4-8 This work is attributed to Fr. Nicolas de la Iglesia, CM, - Also Rolando de la Goza, CM- Jesus Ma. Cavanna, CM, Vincentians in the Philippines, 1862-1982, Manila 1985, pp. 87


 * Do you have the ISSN/ISBN/whatever number, issue, volume number and month published? Or a web link? -- Howard  the   Duck  10:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if the older books have ISBN numbers. Villaroel's article is interesting, even if it runs straight into conflict with sources such as Zaide's history text and that of Agoncillo. Arcilla's history texts and notes also point at San Carlos and San Idelfonso being the same thing. (As an aside, I'd also expect Villaroel to write in favor of Santo Tomas.) In any case, I've clarified the lead. Rmcsamson 16:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment: For Colegio Seminario de San Carlos (1783) and Colegio de San Ildefonso (1595-1768), how could there be continuity for the insitutions when there is a a gap of 15 years of nonexistence? Clearly, the two institutions separated by 15 years do not even have the same name. The simplest explanation is the right one, and that the two are different and distict. But that cannot be said yet unless a reliable source echoes this, and apparently the sources have interests in USC/UST or in a religious order. There should be a reliable source other than the historians of USC/UST involved to clarify this, or to have a really good explanation linking the two. If none are found, the claims of "oldest ______" should be removed from the USC/UST articles. Wikiarticles should be accurate, so just the foundation years and the corresponding name of the institution would be enough. This debate should be in USC talk. :) --Noypi380 23:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * For further reading: "UST or San Carlos of Cebu? A question of Age" Unitas volume 68, no.3 September 1995, ISSN 0041-7149.
 * Comment: Are there primary sources/documents that would prove that San Ildefonso and San Carlos as the same institution. Is there a proof that San Ildefonso existed beyond 1768. How can we link the two, there is a gap of 15 years. The non existence of San Ildefonso beyond 1768 only points to the fact that, what was establshed in 1783 is an entirely independent and different institution. Also, are there primary documents in San carlos, e.g. statutes/charter that would prove that it was founded prior to 1783? In fact the charter of San Carlos came about as late as 1828, this is the earliest document that points to the existence of San Carlos. Also, are there any surviving unit/faculty/college in San Carlos that can be traced back earlier than 1783? Only the existence of primary historical documents are needed to settle this issue.
 * Yes, good questions anon, I said exactly the same thing lol. But going after the primary sources could be "original research", correct? Wikipedia cannot add original research. Just a reliable source explaining USC is ok. (again this debate should be in USC talk) :) --Noypi380 10:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Move of this discussion section to USC talk finished, edited the lead section. :) --Noypi380 10:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

2006 Dalit Bisaya
Friends,

USC is hosting the 2006 Dalit Bisaya these days. I've added that to the lead section, although I think that's not the best part to put it in. Please help me transfer it to where it is appropriate. --Bentong Isles 08:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggested Outline
--Pinay (talk•email) 16:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * History/Background
 * Course Offerings
 * Administration
 * Campuses
 * Enrollment Data
 * School Traditions
 * People/Notable People
 * Significant contributions to community/society

Dear readers, i may just end the argument and debate over which is oldest, UST or USC ? For the most part of the discussions above, the center of the conflict is whether San Ildefonso and San Carlos are one and the same and if San Carlos is a continuation of San Ildefonso or not. Granting that San Carlos and San Ildefonso are one and the same, and therefore founded in 1595, and Santo Tomas, of course, was founded in 1611, there should be no confusion or argument anymore regarding which institution is the oldest. Both institutions can rightly claim to being the oldest but in deifferent categories or classifications. This is because the two institutions,though founded on different dates thereby making one older than the other, their University charters were granted at different times. San Carlos was elevated to the rank of a University in 1945( i may not be exact on this date but surely it was 1945 or thereabouts, therefore, only in the last century). On the other hand, Santo Tomas was elevated to the rank of a University in 1645. So, the real questions are - 1.which is the oldest school? and 2. which is the oldest university? Again, granting that San Carlos and San Ildefonso are one and the same,and founded in 1595, then it is clear that San Carlos is the oldest school but definitely not the oldest university because it was only elevated to the rank of a university in 1945. On the other hand,Santo Tomas which was founded in 1611 is clearly not the oldest school, but most definitely is the oldest University because it was elevated to the rank of a university in 1645 and continues to exist up to the present time.And by definition, a school is a small institution of learning that confers only limited degrees, in contrast to a university that confers high degree courses like Law, Medicine and Surgery, Architecture, Engineering, Sacred Theology, Graduate Studies, etc. So, although San Carlos was founded in 1595, it did not become a university until 1945, while Santo Tomas was already a fullfledged University in 1645.

To end the discussion: 1. Which is the oldest school in the Philippines? San Carlos. Which is the oldest University in the Philippines? University of Santo Tomas. This way, both institutions can claim to being the oldest without anymore conflict.


 * There has been an issue raised with regard to the manner of argument proposed by the anonymous user, that is, that we should turn to the time a particular institution was given university status. The problem with that argument is that it draws an ontological distinction where there is one. The institution remains the same--it is just given recognition of an elevated status. Otherwise, UST should be said to have been founded in 1645, not 1611, which runs contrary to a lot of UST's other claims. In the UST page, we settled the manner by providing, at least for the time being, that UST's got the oldest extant university charter among Philippine schools. In light of several changes of definitions of both a school and a university, then whether or not USC or UST are the oldest schools in Asia can be questioned. Rmcsamson 09:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, UST became a university first, while USC was established first. I have yet to see a USC source saying they were the oldest "university", they'd always say they're the oldest school.
 * Actually, it's like this, in the Senate (US or RP), it's not the oldest guy who gets the committee chairmanships, it's the most "senior" guy - the one that served the longest. Ergo, if universities were a Senate, UST would take precedence over USC by basis of "seniority."
 * But it doesn't matter anyway, since the UST page says it has the "oldest extant university charter," leading to anyone who lazily reads the article assumes that UST is the oldest hahaha. -- Howard  the   Duck  14:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Martyred in Bohol?
Two people are listed in the notable alumni section for being "Martyred in Bohol," what does that mean? Does that make them notable? --AW 13:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * They must be the people who were killed either by the military (accdg. to leftists) or by a Communist purge (accdg. to the government), and they're really not notable in a sense the others in the list are. I'll be removing them. -- Howard  the   Duck  15:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Issues found on the lead
(This section is for the discussion on issues found on the second paragraph of the lead.)

Wikipedia has some dos and don'ts when writing an article for a university and the content of the second paragraph in the lead of USC's article seems to be very off from what is advised. In fact, the paragraph sounds like an advertisement for the university -- a tone of writing that is frowned upon by Wikipedia.

Hence it needs some clean up to adhere to Wikipedia's core policy of neutrality and verifiability. In it's current form, that paragraph seems like an admissions brochure to convince readers of the quality of the school. I've indicated the lines that need attention. For the fix of those issues, one may refer to Wikipedia's Manual of Style and be mindful of choice of words.

This article sets the criteria on when is an issue considered resolved.

Thank you all. Paulo Juan Cabral

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