Talk:University of Santo Tomas/Archive 1

Edit war
This page is now temporarily protected from editing, at the request of User:No Guru at Requests for page protection.

It seems like a very long edit war over fairly small differences. I don't know anything about the subject, but will try to ask others to come and offer their opinions, by posting on Talk:Manila, Talk:Philippines, Talk:Tagalog, etc. Maybe when a larger number of opinions is available, some consensus can emerge. -- Curps 00:10, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I just put this on my watchlist now. What are the contrasting points of view? I suggest two sections a For and an Againts section or a similar structure--Jondel 00:28, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, take a look at the edit history. It seems that the dispute is just over one or two sentences, but it's been going on for nearly a month. -- Curps 00:33, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hope these disputes are resolved. I'm trying to translate Philippine related articles into Spanish. At the moment the disputes seem to be centered on which is the older university in Asia.--Jondel 08:10, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Universidad de San Ignacio Links and Arguments
You may wish to refer to the Ateneo de Manila University article, which I also edit. The history text I wrote there mentions the Universidad de San Ignacio, which, sadly, is already closed today.

After the San Ignacio was founded in Manila, the Jesuits also founded the San Jose, and the San Idelfonso, which is now the University of San Carlos, which also has an article here.

I believe that the issue here is whether or not "oldest existing" and "premier Catholic university" are properly established and deserve to be accepted as part of the article.

With regard to "oldest existing:"

The arguments to call the University of Santo Tomas the "oldest existing" university spring from the fact that after te San Ignacio, it was the second school in the Philippines to be elevated to a university in 1645. However, the University of San Carlos was founded in 1595, and was granted a university charter late in the 20th century. The question is whether or not it is justified to say a school is the oldest existing university on basis of the issuance of the university charter, or on its founding date. I am of the opinion that there is no ontological distinction between the "University of San Carlos" under its charter or the "Colegio de San Idelfonso," which it was originally founded as, in 1595.

With regard to "premier Catholic university:"

There is insufficient evidence to conclude that the University of Santo Tomas is indeed the leading Catholic university in the Philippines. This claim is easily disputable by other reputable catholic centers of learning, such as the Ateneo de Manila University and De La Salle University. Besides, such an assertion in the article in self-promoting, pompous, and unencyclopedic.

Rmcsamson


 * (If I understood the above well,) I suggest giving a brief mention of U.S.Ignacio as the oldest but non-existing School.USC is the oldest school . But the oldest  existing  University should be UST . leading  or premier should be removed. This will surely be contested among the other 2 universities. Further data, statistics( and aspirin for headaches ) would be required. Is University of San Ignacio the predecessor of Ateneo? I will visiting the Ateneo site after this.--Jondel 08:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * There was mention of the San Ignacio as such, which I attempted to make, in the UST article. The San Ignacio was NOT the predecessor of the Ateneo. However, it is considered as part of the canon of Ateneo history. I disagree that the oldest university should be UST. Because there is no ontological difference in a school before or after it is elevated to a university. Harvard is the same as it was before it called itself Harvard University, for example. That said, USC is the oldest existing school and university in the Philippines and in Asia. To complicate matters a bit, after the San Ignacio but before the San Carlos was established, the Jesuits also established the Colegio de San Jose, which was housed in the same compound as the San Ignacio (as per Horacio de la Costa). The Loyola School of Theology, housed at the Ateneo de Manila's Loyola Heights campus claims that its roots are there as well. However, there is an ontological distinction, as the San Jose became both the Loyola School of Theology (in the 20th century) AND the San Jose Seminary (the San Jose Major Seminary, back in the 19th century), both Jesuit training grounds housed at the Ateneo campus today. Rmcsamson


 * It is just and right to mention that the University of Santo Tomas is the "Oldest Existing University" in the Philippines and Asia because that is the FACT. Even Professor Emeritus of History, Gregorio F. Zaide, Ph.D., one of Philippines finest Historians, believes that the University of Santo Tomas is the Oldest Existing University in the Philippines and Asia (ref: World History Philippine Edition, 1965, pp. 117-134).


 * Regarding the "premiere" I ask the mentioned schools to top UST's 15 Center of Excellence/Center of Development courses granted by the Philippine Commission on Higer Education (CHEd) and to beat UST's number 2 position in the Professional Regulatory Commission.


 * Show some figures and references and not just opinions, people.


 * I just wonder why people flock UST's page. Hhhmmm... am I smelling the awful scent of insecurity here? --Christian1611 2:00am (Manila Time)


 * Ad hominem. Your arguments for "premier" are insufficient. The Centers of Excellence are not measured in terms of quantity, but quality. The Philippine Regulatory Commission is also an inaccurate measure, because not all aspects of academic performance are measured through board examinations, especially in disciplines which are not common to all institutions. It cannot be used as a measure. What might be more accuracte, for example, is the accreditation level, which is given by the Federation of Accrediting Associations of the Philippines for the Commission on Higher Education.Rmcsamson

You said it right. Centers of Excellence are measured both in quality and quantity. What you said about Philippine Regulatory Commision's inaccuracy, can you give some proof or facts to validate your point. Yes not all academic performance are measured through board examinations, but the fact of the matter is UST has been constantly and I say this again constantly on the top ten list either at engineering, pharmacy, medicine, accountancy, sometimes law and many others. Does this not prove the point that UST has the right to call itself as leading (or premier) in the Philippine Education System? Which school has endured time? Which school until has been constantly in the board topnotchers? Which school has greatly impacted and contributed to the education system? Its University of Santo Tomas. 400 years old, constantly at the board topnotchers, community and society leaders. How can you say that the FAAPCHE is the more accurate? Proofs, information, truth figures. We need these


 * I don't think you understood the point. You cannot use the CoEs and CoDs to measure quality on an overall level by simply counting them. This is because not all programs are offered (either as matters of choice or whatnot) by all universities. They are a better indicator of how individual programs perform vis-a-vis equivalent programs in other schools. While UST has managed to maintain a good standing in the PRC/Board examinations, the question is, are ALL schools offering programs which  will require licensing by the board? No. Note that this does not take away UST's strong position in the exams that its students take. However,there are some things to note about board exams: The board exams get you the license, and they show how well you fare in light of certain government-mandated requirements. Whether or not your training differentiates you in a positive manner, or whether you have a particular edge over other successful test-takers is hardly measured by the exams. The reason for this is simple: you are given the same terms to deal with in an exam. However, the exams cannot determine your post-exam or career success. They may point in a particular direction, but they are not a guarantee. Now, why do I say that the accreditation CHEd gives through FAAP is more accurate? The FAAP accreditation criteria is standard, and applies to ALL programs in ALL schools. Programs are  reaccredited depending on their ability to meet stringent process and quality requirements. The highest level, which is standard across the board, is Level IV. Note that all accrediting agencies (PAASCU, PACUOA, etc.) are all supposed to make their recommendation regarding the accreditation/reaccreditation status to FAAP, which then awards the status for CHEd. Whether or not any or all of the school's programs can be given such status is something that is measured. To add to that, a great component goes to how the individual school is able to fulfill the goals it sets out for itself, as measured using key success indicators. The entire survey is also comprehensive, covering every aspect of the school. For more info, I suggest you google PAASCU, PACUOA, and FAAP, as well as CHEd and the reaccreditation levels.Rmcsamson 08:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

What is the meaning of COEs and CODs anyway? It clearly means Center of Excellence and Center of Development. Does that not give away the meaning that it measures the quality of the education system of UST? You said it right, not all programs are offered by other universities but the fact of the matter is UST is offering them and they excelled on those areas. For example, UST has a COE in pharmacy and Ateneo doesn't but both offers philosphy and they both have COE. We are talking about the quality and the quantitiy here. UST has two Ateneo has one. Which one is better? Tic tac tic tac. I will let you decide. With regards to being topnotcher in board exams -- that does not indicate the level of experience of the graduates by being in the UST? By providing them the knowledge that is different from other school and is the most effective -- does that not mean anything? Its the students not the facilities that indicates the performance of the school. See, a school can not exist without the student and the teacher. A lot of UST students are excelling, some of the teachers of other schools are UST graduates. You can know the quality of the school through its fruit -- their students.


 * I suggest you reread the previous comments. Rmcsamson 03:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Why can you not use the Center of Excellence and Center of Development? I mean UST has a lot of COEs and CODs in different fields that they offer. By being the center of excellence and having the center of development in some fields that they offer, does that not mean they are leading Catholic institution? Its not the count that we are talking here, its the fact that UST is leading in many academic program that it is offering. Though UST is offering a lot of programs and some schools don't, still there are other schools that does and UST is leading on it. Say (it may be true or not) Ateneo or La Salle is not offering B.S. Medical technology, but still Far Eastern University is offering it and so is Fatima University and many other schools and UST is leading on that program. Have you ask the education leadership why the UST is not using the one that you were talking about? Maybe there are reasons why UST is not using FAAP for its accreditation. Maybe they have other system as being an Autonomous School. By being that they can do whatever programs and educational advances they wanted. I don't know the answer with that and I am relying on you to do it for me. thanks


 * You can use COEs and CODs to measure INDIVIDUAL program strengths vis-a-vis EQUIVALENT programs offered in other schools. Let's use a hypothetical situation: UST has a COE in Medical Transcription. That means nothing to Ateneo and La Salle, or to San Beda, or to UA&P, or to any other Catholic institution that DOES NOT offer the same degree. But say, the Ateneo de Manila and UST both have their Philosophy programs as centers of excellence. That means that versus all other universities in the country with philosophy programs, these two are the best choices. Now, which one is a better choice is a wholly different matter. The point is, no one is saying that UST is not A leading Catholic institution (one among many), but to say that UST is THE (foremost, best) Catholic institution in the country is a matter of opinion, which can easily fall under scrutiny, for the simple reason that by other criteria which is common to all (FAAP/CHEd accreditation status), UST falls behind the Ateneo de Manila and De La Salle. UST's accreditation falls under FAAP, since FAAP is the umbrella accrediting agency deployed by CHEd. UST is not a member of PAASCU, true, and is a member of PACUCOA. But both PAASCU and PACUCOA report to FAAP, which is the agency that awards the level of accreditation. Rmcsamson 05:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the following &dagger;cross-reference foot note at the bottom of both the San Carlos and Santo Tomas pages should be posted:

At the bottom &dagger; University of Santo Tomas(1611) is considered by some as the oldest existing University. Others consider University of San Carlos as the oldest. It was foremerely called Universidad de San Ignacio and  was founded in 1595, closed in 1769 and reopenned under a its current name with essentially the same Jesuit staff and at the same location.

premier: I suggest placing AA is a leading/premier university, AA meaning Ateneo, DLSU, UST .(place in all pages)

For myself I feel we need to consider ontological views.

I believe that University of San Carlos really should be considered the oldest existing University considering that Universidad de San Ignacio is San Carlos. An entity(person, school, organization) can change its name but it is essentially the same entity. We really have to consider ontology.

(to the anonymous user)By the way, please consider acquiring an account. Wikipedia doesn't give much voting power to anonymous users.

Please conclude this dispute. If not poll it.--Jondel 02:06, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * A matter of clarification. The San Ignacio IS NOT the San Carlos today. Both were established at wholly different times. The San Ignacio was established in Manila as the Colegio de San Ignacio (also known then as the Colegio de Manila) in 1595, whereas the Colegio de San Idelfonso (now the University of San Carlos) was established in 1599. The Jesuit schools--the Universidad de San Ignacio (elevated by Pope Gregory XV and King Philip IV into the first pontifical and royal university in Asia), the Colegio de San Idelfonso, the Colegio de San Jose, and the other institutions--were relinquished to Spanish civil authorities upon the expulsion of the Jesuits. The San Jose and San Carlos reopened. The San Jose became a Jesuit seminary in Manila (San Jose Major Seminary, now tracable to two institutions, the San Jose Major Seminary and the Loyola School of Theology). The San Ignacio never re-opened.


 * The Jesuits returned to Manila in 1859, to establish a base of operations and then go and do work in Mindanao and Jolo. But Manila's residents asked the Ayunatmiento to ask the Governor-General to fund a Jesuit school. Eventually, the Gov.Gen. authorized the Jesuits to take over the Escuela Municipal, which eventually became the Ateneo de Manila. Rmcsamson

Please note that emphasis should be made on the proclamation of the University of Santo Tomas as a Catholic University. This means it is recognized by the Pope as an official Catholic center of learning, a distinction not granted to other Catholic colleges in the Philippines (a good example is Catholic University in the USA, which is the only official Catholic University in the USA: this doesn't mean the rest aren't Catholic, only that it's been given a special privilege and distinction). The claim of UST to be the premier Catholic University stems from this papal distinction (also a royal one, UST is also a Royal Spanish university).

GareonGareon


 * The papal and royal proclamations are bulls authorizing the schools to offer particular degrees (theology, etc.). Today, they're nothing more than honorifics, really, and are wholly irrelevant determinants of UST's academic performance. Rmcsamson


 * The simpler the statements, the more effective it will be. Some of the issues now are : Being Catholic, University status, Actual date of existance as a school considering the school's various incarnations. I will try to tabularize this as soon as I have time.--Jondel 06:09, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

SO Rmcsamson, is it your job to contradict everything that is UST? You don't have anything to do and just write something against UST? Get a life. For god's sake, even the papal and royal proclamation, you try to let them down? You don't want to accept that the academic excellence given to UST programs as determinant of their performance. You don't want to accept the board exmaination results. What more information do you want, Rmcsamson? Maybe because your favorite schools can not cope with UST's achievements. Shame, some of your professors are probably UST graduates or their teachers or their teacher's teachers.


 * Ad hominem. I suggest you make better use of YOUR time. Rmcsamson 02:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Universidad of Santo Tomas Links and Arguments
The following was posted at Talk:Philippines by User:Christian1611, and has now been moved here:

i believe that the version of the registered user is inaccurate and was done to bring harm to the University of Santo Tomas (that registered user is not even a Thomasian). To quote PWRM, "Santo Tomas is the oldest university in Asia and the largest Catholic university in the world, having more than 30,000 students on a single campus." Another site called Yehey.com, the Philippines' largest search engine, justifies that the University of Santo Tomas is indeed the Oldest university in Asia and in the Philippines and the largest catholic university in the world located in one campus. Allow me to quote Yehey.com, "University of Sto. Tomas. University of Santo Tomas - The Catholic University of the Philippines - the oldest in Asia and the largest catholic University in the world". Do you want another proof? To quote UAAPGames.com, "The University of Santo Tomas (UST), was founded on April 28, 1611 by the third Archbishop of Manila, Msgr. Miguel de Benavidez, O.P. together with Frs. Domingo de Nieva and Bernardo de Santa Catalina as a preparatory school for the young men intending to join priesthood. Distinguished as the Philippine's oldest university, it is also the largest Catholic university in the world located in one campus." Therefore, it is NOT just one of the largest in the world BUT the LARGEST in the world. UST is also considered as the premiere catholic university here in the Philippines because of it's numerous achievements and notable alumni. Having four (4) Philippine Presidents, eight (8) canonized saints, chief justices, notable politicians, fifteen (15) Center of Excellence/Center of Development courses, ranked number 2 by the Professional Regulation Committe (PRC) no doubt that the University of Santo Tomas is indeed the premiere catholic university in the Philippines -- Christian 11:59 am (Manila Time)


 * There are problems that arise in the above argument. First and foremost, the proposed resources, namely PWRM, Yehey.com, and UAAPGames.com are non-academic. PWRM relates to particular electrical and power management issues for UST, and may very well have gotten the description mentioned from UST itself. Yehey.com is a search engine which is not reviewed and not academic in nature. UAAPGames is a website of the University Athletic Association of the Philippines, an athletic league of which UST is a member. Therefore UAAPGames also may have gotten its description from material sourced from UST itself. In reaction to these, the edits I have executed are grounded on the following resources: The History of the Filipino People 8th Edition by Teodoro A. Agoncillo, The Philippines by Jean Mallat, The Jesuits in the Philippines:1581-1768 and Readings in Philippine History by Fr. Horacio de la Costa, Rizal and the Emergence of the Philippine Nation by Fr. Jose Arcilla, Kasaysayan: The Story of the Filipino People, and A History of Education in the Philippines 1565-1930 by Encarnacion Alonzo. These are all work by scholars and researchers of Philippine history. The matter of other Catholic campuses having large populations is without question. That UST has a large population is without question. However, a comprehensive survey has not been conducted to verify the claim that it is the largest Catholic university in terms of population. Finally, there is no doubt that UST is a leading private Catholic university in the Philippines. However, whether it can be styled the "premier" ("premiere" being more suitable for opening cinematic or theatrical performances) Catholic university can be very much contested, as I mentioned above, by other leading private Catholic universities in the country such as the Ateneo de Manila University and De La Salle University. Furthermore, "premier" is, again, pompous, self-righteous, self-promoting, and unencyclopedic. Not even such preeminent universities around the world as Harvard, Princeton, Oxford, Cambridge and others make such a claim. -- Rmcsamson

Premier does not necessarily mean that they are the best. One can argue the meaning of the word best because it is a subjective word, meaning there is no basis, it all depends on one person's views or ideas. When the University of Santo Tomas claimed that they are the premier Catholic University of the Philippines, what they meant was the idea that they have produced outstanding people on the likes of Jose Rizal, Presidents and Saints. A school being called best or premier is rooted by the students who graduate. UST has produced outstanding students; as proven by the licensure examinations, awards center of excellence and development given by the accrediting agency of the Philippines and its graduates. I would like to quote a sentence, "The fruit is as good as its tree." The UST graudates are achieveing higher grounds and other schools perceived them as very good at what they do and admire them for the way they act, their humility and kindness. The reason why it is also called premiere is because of time. UST has been standing at the Philippine education system and they were able to influence and moreover inspire the Filipino people. That is the reason why it is the premiere university. University of San Carlos can claim the oldest university or what not but in the end, people will always remember University of Santo Tomas as the university that has influenced time, places and generation and it is aptly called Catholic- catholic means universal.- agent_remus


 * "Premiere" does not mean "best" at all. It refers to a movie showing.If we are to take a simple dictionary definition for the word "best," the issue of the word's meaning can be clearly discussed objectively and with basis. And from this, I affirm my earlier assertion: "whether it can be styled the "premier" Catholic university can be very much contested, as I mentioned above, by other leading private Catholic universities in the country such as the Ateneo de Manila University and De La Salle University. Furthermore, "premier" is, again, pompous, self-righteous, self-promoting, and unencyclopedic. Not even such preeminent universities around the world as Harvard, Princeton, Oxford, Cambridge and others make such a claim." The rest of the statements in the preceding argument by agent_remus are, unfortunately, boosterism and matters of opinion. Finally, it will be helpful for the concerned to read this: Avoid_academic_boosterism

The words, "leading private Catholic universities in the country such as ADMU and DLSU," are contestable because they are not the leading Catholic institutions. Again, fish are caught through their mouth. You just said the words leading. Leading to whom? Says who? You? Asiaweek? Your group of academic scholars say from ADMU or DLSU or San Carlos? Everything that is written here are opinions. they have facts, yes but they were just buttering a bread full of opinions. Academic boosterism? Hey, you just sided with ADMU and DLSU by saying that they are the leading Catholic institutions. If you are basing the Asiaweek, you have to check your facts again. They were stopped because of the inaccuracies of their informations. They judged the school based on figures that they think are the determinants of what the best school is. And by the way, do you know what Harvard, Yale and Princeton have in common? They are in Ivy League and you should know that being in the Ivy league that school has to have "academic excellence, selectivity in admissions and a certain amount of academic elitism" (have to borrow this from Wikipedia). So this schools that are mentioned are also making claims that indeed they are premier, elite, best of the best, highest academic standard, and any words that would mean they are superior. ADMU and DLSU, they just have lots of money and a very good public relations program. They want the people to think that they are catering to the intellectuals or scholarly types but then again they are just a bunch of schools trying to ensnare people with lots of money. It is a money making school. They charge people a lot for a more quality education that they can have from other schools such as FEU, NU or UE. They just cater for the rich and the famous. Leading? think again... Enough said, here are the facts- UST has produced people who had influenced the course of the Philippine history. UST has academic excellence with accreditations from the Philippine govenrment. They proved they have the top notch people through the Philippine board examinations. So are these facts valid? -robert


 * Ateneo and La Salle are not leading Catholic institutions? Note my deliberate non-use of "the": I am making a generalization, not a specific reference. Nor have I denied that Santo Tomas is among the leading Catholic institutions, nor have I denied what accolades its alumni have, nor am I denying its role in Philippine history. That's absolutely IRRELEVANT to my argument. What I have said is that it be called THE leading institution can   be contested by schools such as the Ateneo de Manila and La Salle. Calling it THE leading academic institution, in the absence of definitive proof, is a matter of opinion. The other points presented (Asiaweek, etc.), are immaterial. Rmcsamson 10:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

You all are fools. I was looking at the UST web site and I came across their mission and vision statements. I was just curious as to where did Rmcsamson got the idea that UST has claimed they are the leading or least to say premier university in the Philippines. Surely, if the UST public affairs released statements that says or means they are the best or premier surely they would place it on their website. The truth of the matter is Rmcsamson is just fishing arguments to show his prowess of the English language or to brag his knowledge about the Philippine Education system. He just wants to let everyone know that he has a very good grasp of English language and he is the one who can say what schools are the best and which is the premier. "To all the schools in the Philippines, Rmcsamson is the greatest critic of the Philippine schools. He knows the best. Probably he also knows everything. Please consult him." (note the sarcasm) UST did not formally said they are the best or premier. Ask them, Rmcsamson, if they had a news release informing the Philippines that they said "We are the best. We are the leading institution. We are the premier." When you said UST just want to brag. Maybe they do, maybe they have the bragging rights. But the fact of the matter is they earned it. It has been too long that their achievements were unknown to the whole country. They have been silent about their success. They didn't broadcast that their stories, because you know why? Because most of the Filipinos' opinions is that UST is the best. You may dispute it but that is the common fact. You could ask them. So Rmcsamson, who should we contact to know which one is the best, you?


 * It's quite simple, actually. A little browsing of the edit history OF THIS ARTICLE will show that I was referring to a non-NPOV edit which said UST was the "premiere (sic) Catholic university" or something to that effect. But then again, I suppose you already know that, right? About your last few sentences, if you can produce the figures, then we've got something to talk about. Rmcsamson 02:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Older messages
Dear Santo Tomas,greeting !

Im student in ceby in university of San Jose -R in MSIT. I would like to ask if you have PHD in IT.thanks. Regards Vahid

Reverted information
I removed the Mission statement and Vision statement. Aside from being unencyclopedic, they're copyrighted material taken from the official website (http://www.ust.edu.ph). I also removed the lyrics to the school hymn, as I don't think it's appropriate in this article. And finally, I had to tone down a lot of academic boosterism wording. Just trying to keep NPOV... TheCoffee 30 June 2005 14:16 (UTC)

too much bullet points!
This article is bullet list city! Although I understand the desire the list every single degree offered, of which UST has a lot; I am sure there is a better way to do it. It looks ridiculous with this many bullets.
 * I agree. I'm planning to remove the bulleted lists and change them to paragraph form. Howard the Duck | talk, 13:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Recently ana nonymous user keeps on deleting the USTExchange link in the external links section. Now although I believe that the site is a valid link, and conforms to Wikipedia's policies on external links as if gives the researcher valid site which gives several views on UST and its community., the anonymous user insists on removing the links because the site is not connected to the University. Now if that wsd the case, then we would have to delete ALL fansites and references from each and every article. Now that'll be against those policies, right? Also, then atenista.net. greenarcher.net, bedista.com and countless other BBSs would have to be removed. Currently, the anonymous user does not want to conform to policy so, we will continue in reverting. --Howard t he Du c k 08:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)