Talk:University of Virginia/Archive 1

Was it Really the First?
Throughout the time I've been at the University I've heard from students how it was the "first to separate church and education" and I'm not sure how accurate this statement is. While it was an intentional move by Jefferson to separate the University from the church Benjamin Franklin also did this back in 1740 with the University of Pennsylvania. Granted theology was taught at Penn from the beginning but the basis for the education was supposed to be far removed from Harvard, Yale and William and Mary which focused on clerical education. A quote from the UPenn article: "Franklin's new school would not focus on education for the clergy. He advocated an innovative concept of higher education, one which would teach both the ornamental knowledge of the arts and the practical skills necessary for making a living and doing public service". It seems to me that we've taken the controversial history of the University and its relationship to "the church" as suggestestive that we were "the first"; a suggestion I believe to be unmerited. Typically I'd just edit it out but I know somebody would think my edit inaccurate so I'm starting the discussion here. We're a school full of tradition but it's kind of silly to "create" new ones because we're uneducated.ESMtll 17:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

As someone who attended both Yale and Penn, I would have to agree that Penn does take priority in this respect, since Franklin was specifically concerned with providing a liberal education to future businessmen, not ministers. Moreover, I object to the claim that other schools -- Yale and Harvard, for example -- were still functioning as "seminaries" by 1819. That term suggests that their sole function was theological education and the training of ministers. By 1819, this was really not the case.68.72.81.44 14:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Nominee
I was trying to find a good reason why this article shouldn't be a "Good Article," so I hunted through the talk page and analyzed the criteria, but couldn't find a reasonable objection. Hopefully this process can happen again so this article can get the commendation it deserves. Let the process begin .. Pg8p 09:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)pg8p

The University
Some fine work calling my beloved alma mater "the University" as often as possible. Good show, whoever is responsible! John Kenney 08:11 25 May 2003 (UTC)


 * "The University" comes from a time when the UVA was the only University to speak of in Virginia. As such, when faculty published, they would close in this manner:


 * Thomas Jefferson
 * The University
 * Charlottesville, Virginia


 * Look in one of the Virginia Law Reviews to see an example.


 * P.H.Sweet III CLAS 2001

Michigan Self-Promotion on this page
I disagree with editing to suggest that the rivalry for *best* public university is three-way between UVa, Berkeley and Michigan. Whereas both UVa and Berkeley have individually been ranked #1 and sometimes tied, Michigan has not (either individually or tied with another school).


 * Agreed. Michigan has never been #1. UVa and Berkeley have a monopoly on that battle in USN, partially due to Michigan accepting over 60% of its applicants. –Uris 14:31, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Secretary General of EU
There is no such title as a Secretary General of the European Union


 * Hello 160.39.42.99, this was adapted from the Wikipedia page on Javier Solana. It reads as follows:

"Javier Solana (born July 14, 1942), the 1995-1999 NATO Secretary General, is, since the fall of 1999, Secretary General of both the European Union and the 10 nation permanent member Western European Union." However, it appears that the official title is Secretary General of the Council of the European Union, and so the page here now states this. I'll leave it to another to change Solana's page. Uris 15:02, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Misc
Uris, what tidbit did you consider vandalism in the 26 Sep edits? Biased and sometimes a bit off-topic, none of them struck me as particularly scandalous or, well, vandalous. EEMeltonIV 23:01, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't see this comment until just now! Lawn rooms were never considered "undesirable" at the university, Jefferson's plans for the Rotunda were more than scant, etc. etc.  It wasn't vandalism in retrospect, but not good faith editing. By the way, if you comment someone's Talk page, they'll see your questions the next time they log into Wikipedia, and it's a better way to get a quick answer.  Sorry for the giant delay!  –Uris 14:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Student groups and external links
We have listed only official groups in "external links" Jim Apple 18:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Work hard/play hard
The work hard/play hard bit is trite and tired. As you can see, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=work+hard+play+hard, work hard/play hard is a bit of self-promoting self-description most often used by those who do neither. (Further, if UVa ever was meaningfully described as a work hard/play hard kind of place, when did that end to merit the adjective erstwhile?)

Cka3n 13:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It was likely me who wrote the "work hard, play hard" bit, but after hearing (seeing) your case against it here I can say I am convinced you are right about it. –Uris 14:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC) Actually, looking at the edits, my original mention of "work hard, play hard" was probably removed long ago... I was wondering what you meant by the adjective erstwhile! –Uris 16:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The version I edited included the line "Student life at U.Va. has been noted nationally for both its erstwhile attitude of work hard/play hard ... ." In addition to my qualms about the work hard/play hard line, I wasn't sure why it was an erstwhile attitude.  Of course, when you remove the entire line, you elide that particular word choice problem.  I hope that clarifies things - thanks.  Cka3n 00:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Mistagging images
Be careful when tagging images. Jim Apple 17:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Red tape?
Is there a source for UVa's lack of red tape? Jim Apple 16:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * UVa's ratio of staff to faculty/students is among the lowest in the nation. I'll look for an online source about it. The knowledge was initially learned back when the "History of UVa" course was 4 credits instead of 1 and I was lucky enough to take it... UVa has also had this philosophy from the beginning. Jefferson dispised the bureaucracy   of William & Mary at the time, even going so far as to have no college President at that time. Pretty interesting stuff, IMO. –Uris 17:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * EDIT: I changed "minimal red tape" to "minimal bureaucracy" because they are not quite the same thing. –Uris 17:08, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I will remove the assertion, then, until we have a source. Jim Apple 17:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

"[Tt]he University"
UVa licenses the production of contact stickers (for the inside of car windows) that read "The University". Jim Apple 04:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Mr./Ms./Dr.
"Professors are traditionally addressed as "Mr." or "Ms." rather than "Dr.""

Does anyone really call their prof. "Mr." or "Ms."? In undergrad and grad, I also used (and heard) "Professor" so-and-so -- never Dr., never Mr., never Ms.

Corroboration/dope slap, anyone?


 * I called them "Professor" and "Mr." or "Ms." I never called them "Dr." but I doubt it would have offended anyone or really even much noticed. Omnibus 22:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I called them professor as well. Rarely did i call them doctor unless they were medical. Curious that at my new institution, VCU/Medical College of Virginia, every which person with a doctorate in this or that calls themself doctor, including the president of VCU, who insists on being addressed as Dr. Trani in all communications. My brother, whose alma mater was Columbia, also noted that few went by title of doctor, unless medical. I wonder if faculty and administrators at VCU are compensating for some insecurity . ..

P.H.SWEETIII CLAS 2001


 * I always used "Mr." or "Ms." -- "Professor" always sounded pretentious, plus it had more syllables.

Longstanding tradition at UVa is to call them "Mr." or "Mrs."


 * This is bunk, there is no tradition like this and I've been around the University ~23 years. People call each other whatever they want. 128.143.38.45 18:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Without rendering any judgment on the merit of the nomenclature, I definitely knew of such a "tradition" while I was at UVa in the past decade. In my experience, this "tradition" existed for the most part in legend, in some part in the undergraduate experience, and virtually not at all anywhere else on grounds.  I vaguely recall some on-grounds publication running a UVa jargon column right around move-in referring to this. Cka3n 19:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Although probably not adhered to near as much in the graduate schools for a number of reasons ("Dr." is usually inappropriate in law school and absolutely appropriate in medical school and therefore presence/absence is impercieveable; much less "tradition indoctrination" for graduate students; etc.) While certainly not universal, it is adhered to fairly closely by undergraduate students. Whether that adherence is by choice (because they know of the tradition) or by chance (they simply prefer to refer to professors as "professor"), the nomenclature does exist. Also, for what it's worth, the tradition is mentioned frequently (at least in recruitment materials) and does purportedly have roots in Mr. Jefferson himself. That said, "Professor" is almost the exclusive manifestation of this--I have never heard of a faculty member referred to as "Mr." or "Ms." by a student. And, to address the Dec. 20 concern by the IP address user, I'm assuming that those 23 years are as staff/faculty of some type and this tradition is limited to what students call faculty, not what staff/faculty call each other.--Velvet elvis81 21:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I graduated from the College in 1995 and everyone I knew used "Mr." or "Ms." except when we were addressing Gerald Fogarty in the religious studies department; because he is an ordained Jesuit, he was universally known as Fr. Fogarty. (I recall that a few suck-ups addressed Ray Bice as "Dr.," and one friend of mine tried to curry favor by addressing Mark Morford as "Dr." until Morford told him to quit it.) But I never heard ANYONE say "Professor" until I went off to law school at Duke. I think part of the distinction is that some people were not professors. For example, I took Julian Bond's class on the civil rights movement, and "Professor Bond" would have been incorrect because he was a "lecturer," i.e., someone who had not yet been made even an Associate Professor (a tenure-track position that is lower than a tenured professor). So he was always "Mr. Bond," and the TAs used that form too. 1995hoo 15:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I am a professor at The University, holding an MD and PhD degrees. When I was awarded tenure, at the president's house, my name in the program held the funny reference "Mr. Dr." I was somewhat insulted, but in the end found it simply ludicrous. My experience is that UVA undergraduates call me "Professor" and medical students call me "Doctor". I would vote for Professor, but not sure that Old Tom would agree.Dtempleton 22:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would have thought that the MD would trump in that case. My recollection is that MDs were the one exception to the more general rule of not using "Mr." I never heard a PhD-holder referrd to as "Dr.," though, except in a few rare cases (after all, doesn't it stand for "Phony Doctor"???? --BTW, I have a JD, which in my view makes it fine for me to joke about these things. Some of my colleagues and I mockingly call each other "Doctor" on occasion for precisely this reason!). But "Mr. Dr."? That's just WEIRD. The only times I've ever heard "Mr." used in conjunction with another title are when referring to Supreme Court Justices ("Mr. Justice Brennan," a usage now generally considered obsolete ever since Sandra Day O'Connor was appointed, although "Mr. Chief Justice" is still used) and when using the formal title for a Catholic Deacon ("Rev. Mr. John Smith," although notice the "Rev." part comes first). 1995hoo 12:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like you guys haven't read this
Avoid academic boosterism

Au contraire. This article neither makes vague references about prestige nor buries the user in facts. UPDATE: Ok, so it did contain a vague/uncited sentence or two about the law school's prestige that had been added anonymously in the past 48 hours. I have deleted it. Omnibus 22:37, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Some more info
Is it possible to add some more info on the University's reputation?


 * Reputations are hard to quantify or qualify. Saying the University is "one of the most prestigious universities in the United States" would be a good example of academic boosterism mentioned above. Omnibus 22:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I thought noting that William Faulkner called it a Public Ivy was a good, neutral way of saying something about its reputation.... evidently Omnibus does not agree. However, I can't find a source for Faulkner calling it that, so maybe it's just as well gone. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * P.S. I think "The University of Virginia is notable in American history for being the first to offer academic specializations in areas now common, such as Astronomy, Philosophy, and Architecture, as well as being the first to separate church and education" is a lot more important than ranking sixth in its production of Rhodes scholars... Dpbsmith (talk) 02:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yep, you're right. I've moved the Rhodes Scholars mention from the opening to "Academics".  Also, the Faulkner quote would be okay except that, as you say, it is hard to come up with a source for it. Omnibus 21:37, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Reputation for Intimidation
If you're thinking about attending UVa, you might want to consider this...

“Everyone here is pretty attractive, guys and girls. There are virtually no fat people. Everyone runs and works out at the gyms. The gyms are really great, by the way!”

“The guys are, for the most part, pretty preppy. A lot are very Southern; it’s a mix of hot and not. There are lots of pretty girls. I think everyone at Virginia works out.”

Decide for yourself if you're up to the challenge!

from the College Prowler guidebook; University of Virginia - Off the Record


 * Yes, I flipped through this book yesterday while helping my sister sell back her old textbooks. It's a collection of random, unattributed quotes and overall seems generally useless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EEMeltonIV (talk • contribs)


 * College Prowler is crud. They find student quotes and take the ones they want.  It's totally useless, except I think it has a restaurant section.  That said, UVA is the "Hottest for Fitness" or something in some survey. --ZachPruckowski 21:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There was a guy called "The Collegetown Prowler" who was looking in people's windows while they slept at Cornell.... I wonder if that's how this "Prowler" gathered their information. JDoorjam 20:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait, wait, that was the Collegetown Creeper. Prowlers everywhere, I apologize for slandering your name. JDoorjam 20:47, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Are any of these 1856 phrases still current?
From A Collection of College Words and Customs. How many of these 1856 phrases and traditions still survive?


 * BOS. At the University of Virginia, the desserts which the students, according to the statutes of college, are allowed twice per week, are respectively called the Senior and Junior Bos.


 * CURL. In the University of Virginia, to make a perfect recitation; to overwhelm a Professor with student learning.


 * DIKED. At the University of Virginia, one who is dressed with more than ordinary elegance is said to be diked out. Probably corrupted from the word decked, or the nearly obsolete dighted.


 * FEBRUARY TWENTY-SECOND. At Shelby, Centre, and Bacon Colleges, in Kentucky, it is customary to select the best orators and speakers from the different literary societies to deliver addresses on the twenty-second of February, in commemoration of the birthday of Washington.


 * GRADUATE IN A SCHOOL. A degree given, in the University of Virginia, to those who have been through a course of study less than is required for the degree of B.A.


 * In the University of Virginia, students on entering are sometimes initiated into the ways of college life by very novel and unique ceremonies, an account of which has been furnished by a graduate of that institution. "The first thing, by way of admitting the novitiate to all the mysteries of college life, is to require of him in an official communication, under apparent signature of one of the professors, a written list, tested under oath, of the entire number of his shirts and other necessary articles in his wardrobe. The list he is requested to commit to memory, and be prepared for an examination on it, before the Faculty, at some specified hour. This the new-comer usually passes with due satisfaction, and no little trepidation, in the presence of an august assemblage of his student professors. He is now remanded to his room to take his bed, and to rise about midnight bell for breakfast. The 'Callithumpians' (in this Institution a regularly organized company), 'Squallinaders,' or 'Masquers,' perform their part during the livelong night with instruments 'harsh thunder grating,' to insure to the poor youth a sleepless night, and give him full time to con over and curse in his heart the miseries of a college existence. Our fellow-comrade is now up, dressed, and washed, perhaps two hours in advance of the first light of dawn, and, under the guidance of a _posse comitatus_ of older students, is kindly conducted to his morning meal. A long alley, technically 'Green Alley,' terminating with a brick wall, informing all, 'Thus far shalt thou go, and no farther,' is pointed out to him, with directions 'to follow his nose and keep straight ahead.' Of course the unsophisticated finds himself completely nonplused, and gropes his way back, amidst the loud vociferations of 'Go it, green un!' With due apologies for the treatment he has received, and violent denunciations against the former _posse_ for their unheard-of insolence towards the gentleman, he is now placed under different guides, who volunteer their services 'to see him through.' Suffice it to be said, that he is again egregiously 'taken in,' being deposited in the Rotunda or Lecture-room, and told to ring for whatever he wants, either coffee or hot biscuit, but particularly enjoined not to leave without special permission from one of the Faculty. The length of his sojourn in this place, where he is finally left, is of course in proportion to his state of verdancy."


 * PROFICIENT. The degree of Proficient is conferred in the University of Virginia, in a certificate of proficiency, on those who have studied only in certain branches taught in some of the schools connected with that institution.


 * PUBLIC DAY. In the University of Virginia, the day on which "the certificates and diplomas are awarded to the successful candidates, the results of the examinations are announced, and addresses are delivered by one or more of the Bachelors and Masters of Arts, and by the Orator appointed by the Society of the Alumni."--_Cat. of Univ. of Virginia_.


 * This occurs on the closing day of the session, the 29th of June.


 * SWELL BLOCK. In the University of Virginia, a sobriquet applied to dandies and vain pretenders.

Dpbsmith (talk) 01:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Almost none of 'em! The Curl is still evident only by the title of the yearbook, which has retained its title since the mid-19th century when these phrases were apparently common. You can guess what a Cork was. Public Day is still not called "Graduation" but now goes by Finals and is now held at the beginning of May, nearly two months prior to June 29. Omnibus 07:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Easters
This article makes no mention of Easters, nor can I find a separate Wikipedia entry for it. Is it appropriate for this entry?


 * I feel like it's significant enough to mention, though I don't know enough about Easters to add anything myself. Uvaduck 18:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Any mention of student life without a brief description of Easters is ridiculous. Chris Delmar Class of 84

Easters was abolished after someone died in a drunken car accident. We have Springfest now, which is a huge free concert (this year it's Brand New, and a bunch of smaller bands) --ZachPruckowski 16:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I gave Springfest and Easters a brief shot. I'll check for something more concrete later this week, I know some people who have worked at UVA for like 20 years or so.

Alumni user category and userbox
For anyone interested, there is now a Wikipedia UVa alumni user category.

Category:Wikipedians_by_alma_mater:_University_of_Virginia

Additionally: in commemoration of UVa's recent domination on the athletic field (this is sarcasm), I pieced together a userbox. Simply drop in user UVA

EEMeltonIV 06:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Honor System
What of the University's Honor System? Is this appropriate for this entry?


 * Yes, it is important. UVa's Honor system is known throughout the country for its high standards. it has served the basis for many honor systems throughout the country.

I agree that the honor system at UVA is widely known and influential. Therefore, the system should be outlined both historically and in the modern era. Some alumni may have differing ideas about how the system works, as it has changed over time, as has the student, faculty, and community support of it. InterpolON 22:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)