Talk:University of Virginia/Archive 2

"The University" and "The College"
I'm wondering whether people are parsing it wrong when they interpret "The University" to mean "The University," i.e. the only university in the world worth mentioning. I'm thinking perhaps it means "The University," as opposed to "The College" (of William and Mary). Thoughts? Dpbsmith (talk) 17:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It probably has little to do with W&M because the tradition there doesn't go back nearly as far. In the 1960s nobody at William & Mary called it "The College" but students at UVa often called it "The University". To know why the tradition began, you'd have to ask someone who was there in the 19th century, and they probably are hard to track down.

-THIS IS FALSE. WILLIAM & MARY was originally chartered, and to this day, repetitively, referred to as THE COLLEGE of William and Mary. It has always, and always will, be referred to as such. This has been the case before and long after it was transformed to university status. UVA may have been called, colloquially, "The University", but it is not deemed so by any official documents, as opposed to William and Mary's well documented Brittish connections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.34.12 (talk) 23:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Has nothing to do with William & Mary, I'm afraid (although, you are incorrect -- neither "The College" or "The University" has any more "official" status than the other in terms of charters, etc.), especially since "The College," in U.Va.-circles, has referred to the College of Arts and Sciences for over a hundred year. It has to do with U.Va. being "The University" of Virginia, and there not being any other University in Virginia for some time. One of the reasons, also, is that, until Charlottesville grew out to the point that it bordered U.Va., the University was out in the country, some miles away from the town and so its address was not "The University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia" but "The University, Virginia." To large degree it stuck due to the hypothesis above -- it's the only University worth mentioning. 219.78.222.177 (talk) 13:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Secret societies source
FYI, the source linked for the "other noteworthy secrete societies" is an all-student group, and their historical database has a spattering of inaccuracies and old data. I point this out because in the previous call to cite these groups, someone specifically suggested a *non-student* newspaper. If a non-student newspaper ain't so hot, another student group may be just as questionable. After all, the Guide Service has just as many history majors and UVa buffs as The Cavalier Daily. EEMeltonIV 21:58, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd certainly like to see a better source. And I was just about to say that if someone were to delete this material, I, for one, would certainly not restore it. But to my mind there's a big difference between a dubious source and no source.


 * However, before doing that, those interested in preserving this material should take a few shots at searching on the name of the secret societies in Google Books. I tried Eli Banana and rather to my surprise got three hits... and at least one of them,, certainly looks solid to me. "While at the university Mr. Anderson was a member of the Alpha Tau Omega fraternity, which he joined in 1879, and in 1883 he became a member of the society known as the Eli Banana, composed of the leading students of the various Greek letter fraternities."


 * So, there's one down, three to go. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Graduate placement
This section makes precisely two closely related points: graduates of University of Virginia have stellar success in gaining admissions to a) medical schools, b) top postgraduate programs. It does so by citing two sources. The point is worth making, but there is no particular reason to spend more than two or three sentences making it. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Also:

In the paragraph


 * The Wall Street Journal conducted a study of "feeder schools" to top 5 graduate programs and it yielded nearly identical results to the annual U.S. News and World Report survey for the University. Both studies rank the University of Virginia as the top university in its state and #2 among doctorate granting public universities, yet the criteria for the two ranking systems are unrelated. With the addition of liberal arts colleges and other non-doctoral institutions in the Wall Street Journal ranking (which are excluded from its category in U.S. News and World Report), the University's overall rank was #33 nationwide.

I'm confused as to what is being said and why U. S. News and World Report is even being mentioned. The only reference here is to U.S. News and World Report itself, so I can't check what U. S. News is saying. Is this in fact citing a U. S. News ranking on graduate placement? If so, let's have the citation.

Nor do I understand what the point is of bringing in "doctorate granting public universities" as the universe of discourse. In evaluating a institution's ability to prepare undergraduates for entrance to the top graduate programs in the nation, what earthly relevance is there in whether or those undergraduates happen to be attending an institution which has a graduate school itself?

And what's the business about "the two ranking systems being unrelated?" Does UVa ranking first in two not-very-closely-related measures mean that it's automatically first in everything? If not, what does it mean?

Unless this can be clarified, I don't think any of the U. S. News material belongs here. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

"Academical village in winter" picture
I love it... every time I glance at this page I think how good it is... it makes me almost think I could step into the picture if I tried hard. Makes me wish I'd attended UVA! Dpbsmith (talk) 16:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Albemarle County vs. City of Charlottesville
Anyone know that most of The University of Virginia is actually located in Albemarle County? With the exception of the hospital and a few other buildings. A somewhat minor point, but how should it be noted?

Virginia Advocate
Some one added a paragraph about the Virginia Advocate into this article. It's at best the 3rd most heavily read magazine on grounds, and I highly, highly doubt it's that high. We don't mention the Cavalier Daily or the Declaration which are numbers 1 and 2. If someone wants to make a "student newspapers section", then maybe that's reasonable, but otherwise we have to have a standard for what groups get the mention in the article. If there was a sub-article or something for student activities or student publication, that'd be more reasonable. --ZachPruckowski 16:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I was the 'some one'. As mentioned in the edit summary, it was a merge from The Virginia Advocate as there had been a merge tag on that page for some time, and it looked like the merge was sensible.  If the material isn't going to live in this page, either the redirect from The Virginia Advocate needs removing, or the material needs restoring to The Virginia Advocate.  However, if the material isn't notable enough to get a mention in this page, it seems highly unlikely to deserve a page of its own.  As has been shown, I have little knowledge of the subject, so defere to those that do to resolve the matter. Kcordina 17:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as offensive. I thought it was just someone trying to stick a random student group into the main article as astroturfing.  My mistake, and my apologies.  Personally, I think we need a student activities sub-page.  That's really the only way to do it, because there are some (like the Declaration or Virginia Advocate) that deserve something, but not a separate page or a paragraph in the student activities section by themselves.  How about a section on student publications?  --ZachPruckowski 17:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Article size
This article is longer than optimal. Some sections (history and grounds) could perhaps be moved to their own pages, but don't need to be included fully on the main page. Parudox 04:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Student life
Tagged the "Studen Life" section, as it is poorly written and organized, and seems to be rife with unsubstatiated comments such as so-and-so library "gets high marks" that are neither properly cited or are particularly pertinent to an encyclopedia. beekman 20:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

GA status
Err, unfortunently, I see several problems with this article. Firstly, the impression I get from this is an increadibly favorable POV almost to the point of advertising, I mean look at some of these sentences : And well, it just looks weird. And the whole article is filled with all these weird little bits of praise from various sources over stuff, and while its all well and good that that kind of stuff is verifiable, i've never seen a school article with so much praise-type stuff in it before, it looks very off and seems to give it quite a slant.
 * The Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, considered among many as both spiritual and humanitarian leaders, graced The Grounds with their presence in 1998,
 * University officials swiftly approached celebrity architect Stanford White to rebuild the Rotunda
 * These walls are called "serpentine" because they run a sinusoidal course, one that lends strength to the wall and allows for the wall to be only one brick thick, another example evidencing Jefferson's combination of aesthetics with utility.
 * Thanks to a Charter initiative that recently passed the Virginia legislature, the University — and any other public universities in the state that choose to do so — will have greater autonomy over its own affairs.
 * Many of America's political leaders have gravitated to the University of Virginia over the years.

Also, there don't seem to be too many references for a whole lot of bits of information in this article, which doesn't seem right at all. Homestarmy 00:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I edited sentences 1, 3, and 5 to make them a bit more "standard". 2 and 4 look to be fine the way they are. Uris 17:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Black graduation rates
The article previously explained U.Va.'s rate by comparing it to four Ivy League schools that had lower rates, quoting from an online article.[] It is not clear when that article was published, but it is no longer accurate, and the very next issue of the same journal (JBHE) published a list showing U.Va.'s rate lower than two of the institutions named in the quotation.[]  The other two schools are not mentioned but presumably remain below U.Va. I have changed the article (poorly) to reflect this. Editing 20:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Bias in the description of the 1976 Rotunda alterations
The removal of Stanford White's work was not a "restoration," and working from "original plans" is of dubious value when those plans consist of one or two undetailed sketches of a circular room. The 1976 destruction of an important interior designed by one of the country's greatest architects and its replacement with a conjectural replication of an earlier interior using ordinary acoustical ceiling tiles is not a "restoration" and is not respected today by historians or architects. Should some of the arguable shortsightedness of the demolition be brought out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editing (talk • contribs)


 * There were archival photographs to work from as well as original "plans"... I think it's pretty much fine the way it is, and I highly doubt that the Rotunda is "not respected today by historians or architects".


 * I will change the phrase "original plans" to "original sketches and historical photographs" however. Uris 16:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

University Infobox
Sorry to vent some frustration, but this is the second time that infobox template has been reverted back to a HTML infobox by an anonymous editor. I know that UVA alums and students are proud of their university and want a distinctive look for their university, but before it is changed back again they should consider that the template is used by 2000+ Universities and provides a consistent look and feel for all universities. 40+ country templates and several hundred other HTML templates were consolidated into this single template. It is the single university infobox. All of the fields covered in the specialized template are covered. If you have a complaint about the look, bring it up with the main template, don't change it back here. That W&M has a HTML template is irrelevant, it will also be changed to the new template. -- Reflex Reaction  ( talk )&bull; 05:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The best thing you can do is to go ahead and change the other Virginia schools such as WM, VT, JMU, etc. since those are the ones people here are most likely to have seen, not the 2000+ others. Uris 16:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This has been completed. Uris 22:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Too many images?
Anyone else think there are too many images in this article? Especially since a few of the generic scenery photos are available on Wikipedia Commons. Uvaduck 15:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The Commons exists so that the images are available to the article in all languages instead of just English. It isn't there to store all the images instead of having them in the original article.  In other words, they are there because they should be in the article(s), not because they should not.  I think a couple images per section or so are warranted, it could even stand one or two more images IMO. Uris 16:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Update: The "Pavilion Gardens" pic looked a little weird in its placement on the list of schools. I moved it down to the bottom of a section that had no photos. Uris 19:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Former Good Article Candidate
When fully improved and ready, this article should actually be nominated for featured article status (which University of Michigan and Michigan State University have already attained), not good article status. The criteria are essentially the same, except that featured articles should be longer and comprehensive, while good articles are generally under 20kb. This article is currently 39kb, quite comprehensive. Uris 21:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Elitist rep
Facts from recent edit:

1 - The University's students have a reputation for preppiness and elitism, especially for a public university. 2 - The Office of Admissions has increased the minority enrollment. 3 - Full grants are guaranteed up to $40,000 in family income through AccessUVa.]] 4 - Facts 2 and 3 are efforts to combat the stereotype of 1.

Qualms:

1 - How has minority enrollment been increased? I'm not knowledgable enough, but the writing almost suggests that the office of admissions has taken the stance "We need more minorities" and is doing something about it, which, depending on the minority and the mechanism, is illegal. Is this a change in admissions policies that has a secondary (albeit perhaps intended) effect on minority admissions? If so, what is the actual change? Is this a marketing change? If so, is admissions the office doing that? (I.e., is there a source for this?)

2 - I don't think that is how accessuva works. From the website, "Replaces need-based loans with grants in the financial aid packages of low-income students — those whose family income is equivalent to 200 percent of the federal poverty line or less. Caps the amount of need-based loans offered to any student at approximately 25 percent of U.Va.’s in-state cost of attendance over four years, and will meet all need above that amount with grants. All students, regardless of state residency, will receive the in-state cap level."

So even if you are below that 2X the federal poverty line (which happens to be $20,000 for a family of four *this year*), you will not get a full grant ride. Indeed, you will go through the regular process, and whatever need-based loans you would have been awarded, UVa will substitute grant money. I think the amount varies by family size, by year, and, for a few of them, by state.

3 - Is there any source for 4, the fact that 2 and 3 are efforts to combat a stereotype? Might they not be efforts to combat the same access problems virtually all peer universities are facing.

Cka3n 20:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * 1. Minority enrollment has increased, primarily by increasing the acceptance rate of minority applicants, as well as better marketing in attempts to increase applications. The former is not illegal except in California and Texas.  UVa didn't fall behind UC-Berkeley in the US News rankings until Berkeley was no longer able to give preference to minority applicants because of Proposition 209.  UVa still does, and in a large way.  But I've changed this wording to state that minority enrollments and graduation rates are high, which is more pertinent given the other changes below.


 * 2. I've changed the wording to reflect the difference between the two arrangements.


 * 3. I've changed the wording here, too.


 * (4. I've changed "preppiness" to "upper class" which is more neutral and verifiable.)


 * This is how it reads now: The University's students have a reputation for being upper class and sometimes elitist, especially for a public university. Yet minority enrollments and graduation rates are high, and grants to replace all loans are now guaranteed up to twice the poverty level through AccessUVa.


 * Let me know what you think.


 * Uris 20:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I certainly don't pretend to be an expert, but I think that race-based admissions schemes can violate the Constitution (e.g., I am pretty sure that a flat-out quota would be illegal). On the other hand, I know that the federal courts have green-lighted more broad approaches (e.g., I think, considering race as one factor in a broad evaluation).  So if UVa says, "We're going to increase the minority admissions rate from 20 to 30," I think that might be more likely to be barred than if UVa says, "We're going to give additional consideration to under-represented minorities."  Cka3n 21:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm all for diversity, or I wouldn't live in New York City, but the latest African-American acceptance rate at UVa was a whopping 58%... considerably higher than it was 10 years ago if I'm not mistaken, and compared to something like 33% for Caucasians. How they worded the more aggressive policy, I'm not sure, but it was a case of consciously raising the acceptance rate for these applicants. Uris 23:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I looked into it a bit more and it was 60% in 2001, so it's actually remained pretty constant at least in the past 5 years. Uris 00:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've changed the wording further due to concerns about NPOV. It now reads The University's students have a reputation for being from upper class and white collar backgrounds. Yet tuition rates are low, minority enrollments and graduation rates are high, and grants to replace all loans are now guaranteed up to twice the poverty level through AccessUVa. Uris 15:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Central College
Although I am pretty sure UVa is not "also called ... Central College" (even if that reference belongs in a history section), I wanted to confirm that here in Talk before I removed that portion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cka3n (talk • contribs)


 * "Central College" was the original name for the instution that later became the University of Virginia; no one today calls it "Central College" --EEMeltonIV 21:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep... not called that today, and possibly wasn't even called that when the first classes began. Was called that primarily during its construction as far as I know. Uris 20:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Race relations
I took out the specific Lundy material but left the general statement and link. --EEMeltonIV 18:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If we list Lundy, should we list everything (95% rhetorical question)? The Serena-Venus Williams Halloween blackface thing comes to mind, as do the pimps and chickens (or something like that) party, Lawn dry erase board notes, and good ol' (that's sarcasm) Kappa Alpha's lynching scene in front of their house during my first year.
 * Surely there is more recent CD or Hook or C'ville fodder to dole out for additional citation(s)
 * Would this topic be more appropriate in the student life section?

UVA, W&M, & VMI
Is there any source for this: "This tradition dates back to when there were only three public institutions of higher education: The University, The College and The Institute (The University of Virginia, The College of William and Mary and The Virginia Military Institute, respectively)."

UVA, W&M, and VMI were certainly not the first three public institutions of higher education (UNC's founding being the first public school founding), and W&M was not public in any sense until 1888 (almost 140 years after peer private school W&L was founded and 16 years after VT began to stir). See the respective wiki pages, inter alia, for sources. Hence, I say this is urban legend, and so I am deleting it.
 * I would wonder what the source for that is, but could the rationale perhaps be the first three institutions of higher education in Virginia? MessengerAtLWU (talk | contribs) 17:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think W&L predates UVA and VMI, as its predecessor Augusta Academy was founded in 1749. Cka3n 18:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, didn't know that. MessengerAtLWU (talk | contribs) 19:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

== Admissions Standards ==

I seem to remember more about average SATs and such in earlier versions of the page. Maybe that sort of thing gets cut for boosterism. Anyway, it might be worth mentioning in such a section that UVA does not require an SAT score for all students who apply for matriculation during the spring (rather than the fall) semester. This exception is mostly or always granted to athletes.


 * This is obviously false, troll. SAT scores are required of all student-athletes at all universities competing at any level of the NCAA. ACC standards are higher than NCAA standards, and UVa standards are sometimes greater than ACC standards (though regretfully, this is not often!) Uris 00:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know who the originally poster was, but to come to a limited defense, I wonder if they were confusing two separate "exceptions". First, it might in fact be the case that U-Va institutionally does not require SAT scores for mid-year enrollees (I have no idea).  Second, it might also be the case that the mid-year enrollee spot is generally permitted only for athletes, and only then in special circumstances (again, while I have heard of rare athletes being permitted January enrollment, that is the extent of my knowledge).  If it is the case that the NCAA requires the scores, that does not mean that U-Va requires them only for September enrollees or that U-Va generally grants the January enrollement only to athletes.


 * Also, I should note that the NCAA does not absolutely require the SAT. For most students, either the SAT _or_ the ACT is permitted.  Also, I don't know if any testing is required for a) non-scholarship athletes or b) Division III athletes.  I do know that the NCAA permits exceptions to the initial eligibility requirements, but I don't know what those criteria are or how often they occur.  Also, a student-athlete who fails to submit SAT/ACT scores may, to my knowledge, enter college as a nonqualifier and later become eligible without having taken a test.


 * I note all that just to suggest that the original comment may have been more confusion than trolling.Cka3n 00:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

1986 website claim
According to this, UVA had a website in 1986. According to this, the first web server didn't exist until 1990. So, which is true? --Takeel 04:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It was a site on the Internet in 1986, not on the World Wide Web. Uris 23:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I noticed that you re-phrased this and added it back. However, it might still be confusing to the reader.  Did you intend to say that virgnia.edu was the first registered .edu domain in Virginia?  If so, how can we verify this? --Takeel 00:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Go to the same site, look up the other .edu domains in Virginia. There are not that many of them.  I think the next-earliest was Virginia Tech's. Uris 17:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Promotion to good article
Hi all,

I have promoted this article to the status of good article.

Cedars 11:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Fourth-year Fifth and Archiving the talk page
Regarding the Fourth-Year Fifth:


 * No other university lays claim to the particular nomenclature of the "Fourth Year Fifth," but many, many universities have reasonably similar traditions. Neither the tradition nor the administration's response are significantly unique.


 * To suggest that "fifth" is an arbitrary and self-selected ratio ignores that a fifth is a well known measure of sold alcohol. Its correspondence with the class descriptor surely is part of the story of the development of the "tradition," but it would be error to suggest that the name Fourth Year Fifth led to a search for a volume of alcohol of which about a fifth would be sufficient.

I am going to edit the passage consistent with those points.

Regarding the Archiving:

This talk page has gotten pretty long. Is it time to archive some/all of it?